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The All Purpose Rugby Union Thread (P2)
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CGG_12
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“Healey was very lucky, IMO, to only get a 3 week (in effect 2 match) ban.

Glad to see Warren Gatland 'qualified' his comments. I fear that he may not quite 'get' the Lions ethos (send him round to Willie-John McBride, Bill Beaumont and Ian McGeechan for a chat) in the same way that Graham Henry failed. The 2001 tour had plenty of discord - not just that reported by a couple of players. I recall a story of a former England player - I think it was Gareth Chilcott - sat in a Bar when a (non English) player came inand recognised him. The player told Coochie that he was pissed off and going to catch the next flight home - Chilcott talked him out of it.

Re the team:

I don't think Healey is as far ahead as some reckon - don't be shocked to see Marler in the 1 shirt.

I think it likely that Gray will be at lock when all is settled.

Robshaw is building a very solid case for Captain. And I still reckon, given fitness and his usual form, that Tom Croft is the best 6 available.

There's a plethora off options at full back.”

Marler is Englands' third best 1 so I can't see how he should be close to Lions 1. Corbisiero is a good bit better IMHO and Sheridan has been immense in France

Gray has been average to put it mildly since the 6n last year. I never bought the hype myself but at this stage he'll be lucky to tour imo.

Croft would be behind Ferris and Lydiate by a distance and O'Brien too when it comes down to it. I'd probably even have Tom Wood marginally ahead of him. I rate Croft but he's not in the former 2's league that's for sure

Robshaw had a mare in the Autumn Tests until the NZ game where he played a blinder and showed great leadership. Lets give him 3 more games and see can he lead his country to a slam and how he does in the HCup.

Bod has to be the frontrunner,and I'd imagine it would be a popular decision with fellow players. Rory Best is a decent outside bet as he's guaranteed to start, Robshaw probably won't start as it stands but a great candidate for midweek captain

Full back definitely has the most options alright. If I was coach I'd bring H'Penny as first choice and Brown as second. Controversial perhaps but I've seen a lot of Brown at FB for Quins this year and I think he's the real deal. He's doing an admirable job out of position in the 6n too. Goode is a decent player too but i rate Brown slightly higher than himself and Foden.

I'd bring Hogg too, he's very talented and versatile
Frood
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by CGG_12:
“Marler is Englands' third best 1 so I can't see how he should be close to Lions 1. Corbisiero is a good bit better IMHO and Sheridan has been immense in France

Gray has been average to put it mildly since the 6n last year. I never bought the hype myself but at this stage he'll be lucky to tour imo.

Croft would be behind Ferris and Lydiate by a distance and O'Brien too when it comes down to it. I'd probably even have Tom Wood marginally ahead of him. I rate Croft but he's not in the former 2's league that's for sure”

Marler is strong in the scrum (very rarely seen him bested in 3 years of closely watching him) and brings elements with ball in hand that are exceptional for a prop.

Gray is the type of player I like to watch when he is not a focul point of the action (I used to like doing this with Richard Hill) - he does a lot of less obvious stuff.

Croft behind Lydiate and Ferris by a distance - no way. He's comparable, at worst, in much of the work of a 6 and is an outstanding line out operater with speed around the pitch well above the norm.
CGG_12
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“Marler is strong in the scrum (very rarely seen him bested in 3 years of closely watching him) and brings elements with ball in hand that are exceptional for a prop.

Gray is the type of player I like to watch when he is not a focul point of the action (I used to like doing this with Richard Hill) - he does a lot of less obvious stuff.

Croft behind Lydiate and Ferris by a distance - no way. He's comparable, at worst, in much of the work of a 6 and is an outstanding line out operater with speed around the pitch well above the norm.”

Serious question have you watched much of Stephen Ferris? Fair enough on your other points but to rate Tom Croft higher than him is laughable, with respect.

When on form, in my own view Ferris is currently Ireland's best player pound for pound and Lydiate got Player of the Tournament in the 6 nations last year, has been injured since- a massive loss for Wales.

I'd honestly have Croft about 5th or 6th in the pecking order for 6. He's a good all round athlete and good line out option as you said and covers the ground well but Ferris is far and away a more effective blindside as is Lydiate. If these two don't make it, expect O'Brien to be given the 6 shirt

Ferris is probably the only Irish player who'd make any team in the world. That's saying something
Frood
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by CGG_12:
“Serious question have you watched much of Stephen Ferris? Fair enough on your other points but to rate Tom Croft higher than him is laughable, with respect.”

Yes, I have seen a lot of Ferris - and stand by my view.
Kierenj
14-02-2013
If we're assuming people come back from Injuries back to pre-injury form (as I am guessing you must be with Lydiate), Brown doesn't deserve to lace Foden's boots... he's a good cover option for Full Back but he's not close.

If Croft refinds form in time (and will have the H cup to do that), he could well get into the starting 15... I take your point about Robshaw but he didn't exactly have an "awful" first couple of tests and then play well for the NZ game, in fact I think the BBC showed he did a lot more than the more "recognised" best 7s playing for other nations in those first 3 tests. Thing is, I don't rate him that highly but I'm wondering if we are looking for that Dousatoir, McCaw, Berger style 7 that he just isn't, he's steady, earns the hard yards and makes the tackles... and every time people doubt him he just proves them wrong again.
CGG_12
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by Kierenj:
“If we're assuming people come back from Injuries back to pre-injury form (as I am guessing you must be with Lydiate), Brown doesn't deserve to lace Foden's boots... he's a good cover option for Full Back but he's not close.

If Croft refinds form in time (and will have the H cup to do that), he could well get into the starting 15... I take your point about Robshaw but he didn't exactly have an "awful" first couple of tests and then play well for the NZ game, in fact I think the BBC showed he did a lot more than the more "recognised" best 7s playing for other nations in those first 3 tests. Thing is, I don't rate him that highly but I'm wondering if we are looking for that Dousatoir, McCaw, Berger style 7 that he just isn't, he's steady, earns the hard yards and makes the tackles... and every time people doubt him he just proves them wrong again.”

Brown is a better Fb than Foden imo, arguably more solid under a high ball, massive left peg, and better positioning, there's not much in it though Foden is probably a slightly better counter attacker from deep. Admittedly, this is more or less based on Foden's form in 6n 2012 and WC 2011 didn't see him much since or for the Saints admittedly. However saying Brown wouldn't lace his boots is a massive over exaggeration. Brown has been one of the best players in the HCup this year

Robshaw was no great shakes now in the early games, wasn't awful I just said he had a mare but that was captaincy wise. Around the pitch he was solid but some commentators were calling for S.Armitage to replace him at the time and understandably I remember. He was immense then v NZ and has carried that form into the 6n and is staking a major claim for the 7 shirt

I think I remember Gatland saying they'd play a natural O/S to counter Pocock (I don't have direct quotes here but I'm certain I remember him mentioning this), although that may have been when Warburton seemed a shoe in and could well have been a throw off comment. Tipuric is probably the only real out and out 7 in contention to start.
Frood
14-02-2013
Although Brown has surprised me as a wing I think Foden is better than him at 15.

Robshaw played well in the early autumn games - he only got knocked for a couple of late calls in the game. Much better than 'no great shakes'.
CGG_12
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“Although Brown has surprised me as a wing I think Foden is better than him at 15.

Robshaw played well in the early autumn games - he only got knocked for a couple of late calls in the game. Much better than 'no great shakes'.”

He was fine yes but nothing special. England were poor themselves and in fairness not many players stood out. I do remember calls for him to be dropped altogether though (especially after the Aus game where he was completely outshone by Hooper), and Lancaster came in for quite a bit of criticism in overlooking Steffon Armitage. Anyway, this isn't really relevant now in that he'll be judged on the 6n and possibly the remainder of the HCup. If it was picked tomorrow, I'd doubt he'd start but as I've said he has time yet to put his hand up

Foden has ran out of time to stake a claim anyway and will be well down the pecking order, unfortunately for him.

Timing is often everything when it comes to the Lions tours. Just ask Ryan Jones and, now most likely, Sam Warburton
Frood
14-02-2013
Originally Posted by CGG_12:
“He was fine yes but nothing special. England were poor themselves and in fairness not many players stood out.”

I wasn't able to see much of the Australia game but I understood England got drawn in to some the Australian tactics (something the Aussies are good at but still could have won.

They played a good, hard game against the Saffers and lost to rather a freak try as the ball bounced off various knees.

Certain national sides would have seen those results as heralding great things.
sensoria
15-02-2013
I have always hated Brown but there is no doubt he has an x factor, always breaks the first tackle, has a big boot, has an aggressive edge which you need in the backs somewhere.

I think he more than deserves his space in the England team, not sure about the lions. No one has mentioned Kearny who is phenominal in top form. Then you have Halfpenny.

Full back and back row are nightmare selctions for the Lions.

Backrow: Robshaw, O'Brian, Kelly Brown, Wharburton, Tupiric, Denton, Wood, Croft, Ferris, Falatou, Lydiate just to begin with then you have the outstanding 7 in Europe at the moment in and a left field pick Steffen Armatige. I would be happy with any of them in the backrow. I imagine Croft will have a chance as he covers second row.

Whatever happens their are going to be a lot of upset people and players. Because some big names will be left behind.
Frood
15-02-2013
Originally Posted by sensoria:
“I have always hated Brown but there is no doubt he has an x factor, always breaks the first tackle, has a big boot, has an aggressive edge which you need in the backs somewhere.”

I was unsure whether he had the international 'stamp' at 15, let alone on the wing, but he's not done badly so far.

In other news - it will be interesting to see Saracens new pitch in a live game tomorrow, and it will be even more interesting on a day when we would normally expect a lot of mud.
sensoria
15-02-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“I was unsure whether he had the international 'stamp' at 15, let alone on the wing, but he's not done badly so far.

In other news - it will be interesting to see Saracens new pitch in a live game tomorrow, and it will be even more interesting on a day when we would normally expect a lot of mud.”

I detest saracens and everything they stand for, they have scored 4 less trys than the team at the bottom of the table. They have scored the least amount of trys in the league.

Their rugby is so negative. I laughed when they said this surface will bring about a quicker game.......probably not any good for Sasracens then!
Kierenj
18-02-2013
Originally Posted by sensoria:
“I detest saracens and everything they stand for, they have scored 4 less trys than the team at the bottom of the table. They have scored the least amount of trys in the league.

Their rugby is so negative. I laughed when they said this surface will bring about a quicker game.......probably not any good for Sasracens then!”

haha, yeah, I agree a lot with your comments on Brown (the man annoys me a great deal but I can't commend him enough for his performances in an England shirt).

Also I despise Saracens and laughed about the pitch... I watched the game and it was interesting to see. I think when they get the hang of it they will be able to play some great rugby on it, the problem being thye'll only play on it 50% of the time and will have to have another gear to play on normal pitches. They all seemed to be over-running passes I guess due to the surface being more responsive and quicker. It certainly looks to be the way ahead and I'm interested to see if any other clubs follow suit. I know Irish don't have their own pitch but it would be something that would suit their game I'd imagine.
Mike Teevee
21-02-2013
Weekend teams

Scotland - Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby), Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby), Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors), Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Richie Gray (Sale Sharks), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors), Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier).

Replacements: Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres).

France - Yoann Huget; Vincent Clerc, Mathieu Bastareaud, Wesley Fofana, Benjamin Fall; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Thomas Domingo, Benjamin Kayser, Nicolas Mas, Christophe Samson, Yoann Maestri, Yannick Nyanga, Thierry Dusautoir (capt), Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Dimitri Szarzewski, Vincent Debaty, Luc Ducalcon, Jocelino Suta, Antonie Claassen, Maxime Machenaud, Frederic Michalak, Florian Fritz.
Mike Teevee
21-02-2013
England: 15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 8 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 31 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 13 caps), 11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 13 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 14 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps); 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 7 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 44 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 6 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps), 6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 17 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 14 caps), 8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 15 caps).

Replacements: 16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 6 caps), 17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps), 18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 6 caps), 19. James Haskell (London Wasps, 47 caps), 20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps), 22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps), 23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester, 2 caps)

BBC Rugby
platelet
21-02-2013
My Predictions for the weekend:

Italy 23 Wales 21
England 32 France 26
Scotland 9 Ireland 17
Mike Teevee
21-02-2013
Ireland - R Kearney; C Gilroy, B O'Driscoll, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; T Court, R Best, M Ross; D O'Callaghan, D Ryan; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, D Kilcoyne, D Fitzpatrick, D Toner, I Henderson, E Reddan, R O'Gara, L Fitzgerald.
Mike Teevee
22-02-2013
Italy: - 15-Andrea Masi, 14-Giovanbattista Venditti, 13-Tommaso Benvenuti, 12-Gonzalo Canale, 11-Luke McLean, 10-Kristopher Burton, 9-Edoardo Gori; 1-Andrea Lo Cicero, 2-Leonardo Ghiraldini (capt), 3-Martin Castrogiovanni, 4-Antonio Pavanello, 5-Francesco Minto, 6-Alessandro Zanni, 7-Simone Favaro, 8-Ratu Manoa Vosawai.

Replacements: 16-Davide Giazzon, 17-Alberto De Marchi, 18-Lorenzo Cittadini,19- Quintin Geldenhuys, 20-Paul Derbyshire, 21-Tobias Botes, 22-Luciano Orquera, 23-Gonzalo Garcia.

Wales: -15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Mike Phillips; 1-Gethin Jenkins, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Adam Jones, 4-Andrew Coombs, 5-Ian Evans, 6-Ryan Jones (captain), 7-Justin Tipuric, 8-Toby Faletau.

Replacements: 16-Ken Owens, 17-Paul James, 18-Craig Mitchell, 19-Alun Wyn Jones, 20-Sam Warburton, 21-Lloyd Williams, 22-James Hook, 23-Scott Williams.

BBC Rugby
Mike Teevee
22-02-2013
Originally Posted by platelet:
“My Predictions for the weekend:

Italy 23 Wales 21
England 32 France 26
Scotland 9 Ireland 17”

mine are....

Italy 20 Wales 17
England 33 France 15
Scotland 14 Ireland 23
sensoria
22-02-2013
I could not call any of these games this weekend.

I really like the look of the french side, they look so good and an amazing backrow.

Dan Cole has his toughest test against Domingo who is without question the best looshead in the world. considering he is also about 7" shorter than most of them to is a feet.
david1955
22-02-2013
i ought to give up predicting the scores as i have had only one result correct so far , but here goes .

Italy 13-22 Wales

England 18 - 15 France

Scotland 9-31 Ireland
tealady
22-02-2013
When was the last time Lawes played blind side flanker? Will England be missing speed at the tackle and breakdown as a result?
Arcana
23-02-2013
Commentator taken ill mid-game.

Can't remember that happening before.
tealady
23-02-2013
Yes we have to have Davies for the whole match
Why aren't the pitch markings clearer?
richie4eva
23-02-2013
Shane Williams and Jiffy for the remainder of the game

You can really tell Shane Williams has not done this commentating lark very much
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