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The All Purpose Rugby Union Thread (P2)
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CGG_12
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by platelet:
“Nah you can't use the "blame the ref" excuse. He doesn’t like us, he’s biased against us but we know that and we’ve got to play with discipline. He does like a flowing game however and he's highly unlikely to be as lenient with the yellow card as Dilbert last weekend. If Wales play with the same level of cynicism as they did last week he’s just as likely to turn on them. Also he owes us a try for last year so if his bias does swing the Welsh can't moan about it without conceding they wouldn't have got the 2012 slam without his help

I see two risks to the slam from an England perspective: Players auditioning for the Lions rather than playing as a team, and Toby Flood. The former is as much a risk to Wales as it is to us. The latter, I’m praying Farrell is fit


If Wales win, then they deserve it and I don’t care about the points difference, morally they win the competition.

If England win then I think we’ve got the start of something decent to build on for 2015. At the start of last Saturday the commentators were comparing the team to the 2003 squad. Whilst we’re miles from that, one thing that team were good at was playing badly and still winning. That I think we will have mastered ”

Why? I thought he was fine the last day aside from butchering that try and missing a kick to touch. 2 big mistakes but he's a great kicker and consistent player. He was first choice only a few months ago. Offers more in open play than Farrell IMHO

I think Burns is the best of them though!
Mike Teevee
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by CGG_12:
“Why? I thought he was fine the last day aside from butchering that try and missing a kick to touch. 2 big mistakes but he's a great kicker and consistent player. He was first choice only a few months ago. Offers more in open play than Farrell IMHO

I think Burns is the best of them though!”

I was at the game last Sunday, Flood missed a few kicks to touch that had the crowd groaning. Also he didn't seem to dictate the match that much. Which I found odd, as he's normally better at that than Farrell

Still I don't think the Ref, the weather or potential Lions candidacy have any bearing on the match. I think it'll be close and which team takes their chances will win
CGG_12
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“I was at the game last Sunday, Flood missed a few kicks to touch that had the crowd groaning. Also he didn't seem to dictate the match that much. Which I found odd, as he's normally better at that than Farrell

Still I don't think the Ref, the weather or potential Lions candidacy have any bearing on the match. I think it'll be close and which team takes their chances will win”

Now I think of it I remember two alright. Uncharacteristic enough though. The fact it was Italy at home might have had a bearing, try and make as much touch as possible to pile the pressure on and work a few tries, if it doesn't go out so be it. I remember thinking nothing of it at the time, but silly mistakes like that could have cost England in the end

Still Flood has a lot of experience playing for England and if I were English I'd have no qualms with him starting on Saturday
Finny Skeleta
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by platelet:
“ At the start of last Saturday the commentators were comparing the team to the 2003 squad. Whilst we’re miles from that, one thing that team were good at was playing badly and still winning. That I think we will have mastered ”

They were really doing that?

That England side, particularly in the 6N that year, was the greatest northern hemisphere side I've seen in my 25+ years of watching rugby. This current team is not even on the road to being as good as them.

The 2003 World Cup win is proving to be a similar millstone for England as the great 70s team was (is?) for Wales. If the media and the more clueless section of the public keep dragging that team up every time England have a decent run of matches then all that will follow is disappointment.
sensoria
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by Finny Skeleta:
“They were really doing that?

That England side, particularly in the 6N that year, was the greatest northern hemisphere side I've seen in my 25+ years of watching rugby. This current team is not even on the road to being as good as them.

The 2003 World Cup win is proving to be a similar millstone for England as the great 70s team was (is?) for Wales. If the media and the more clueless section of the public keep dragging that team up every time England have a decent run of matches then all that will follow is disappointment.”

Totaly agree with that, the 2003 team were a once in a lifetime team, all the players in it were probably the top players in their position in the world. They could win in any way the condtions allowed.

The tour down under when they beat Austrailia and New Zealand showed how good a team they were.

I dont think this team has earned the right to a slam yet, think it needs a bit more pain to help build them.

I want to see us play on Saturday with the intensity England played against New Zealand. If they don't it is to big a step backwards.

A win in Cardiff will be huge.
vaughan6477
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by platelet:
“. Also he owes us a try for last year so if his bias does swing the Welsh can't moan about it without conceding they wouldn't have got the 2012 slam without his help
”

If we bleat and moan half as much as some England supporters did in that match last year about a ref's decision then it'll be ridiculous. The video evidence was utterly inconclusive and England would still have had to complete a con attempt from the touchline to bring the scores level.

England supporters should've saved their energy to criticise Courtney Lawes rather than the ref that day. For having the ball ripped from his grasp by a centre about half the weight and height that he is. Which led to the decisive try.
apaul
13-03-2013
They video evidence at the end of the game was inconclusive, but the ref missed a blatant knock-on which gave Wales field position to score earlier in the game.
sensoria
13-03-2013
Originally Posted by vaughan6477:
“If we bleat and moan half as much as some England supporters did in that match last year about a ref's decision then it'll be ridiculous. The video evidence was utterly inconclusive and England would still have had to complete a con attempt from the touchline to bring the scores level.

England supporters should've saved their energy to criticise Courtney Lawes rather than the ref that day. For having the ball ripped from his grasp by a centre about half the weight and height that he is. Which led to the decisive try.”

Yeah your right the Welsh never blame refs ...........
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
England team: A Goode (Saracens); C Ashton (Saracens), M Tuilagi (Leicester), B Barritt (Saracens), M Brown (Harlequins); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), J Launchbury (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), T Croft (Leicester), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), T Wood (Northampton).

Replacements: D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), C Lawes (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), T Flood (Leicester), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester).

BBC Sport
sensoria
14-03-2013
Adam Jones v Joe Marlar and interesting battle.

Back row is also a challenge England with a 3 players with simaler skill sets less specialist back row Wales with 2 7's.

Not sure if that means Wales are wanting to slow down ball or not.

Some good battles all over the field.
tealady
14-03-2013
Will we get a proper scrummage contest? At Twickenham, the pitch was great and allowed a good contest, but at Cardiff and Paris, the pitches have cut up badly with many collapsed scrums as a result.
Why can't the pitch standards be better?
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by tealady:
“Will we get a proper scrummage contest? At Twickenham, the pitch was great and allowed a good contest, but at Cardiff and Paris, the pitches have cut up badly with many collapsed scrums as a result.
Why can't the pitch standards be better?”

blame the weather, simple as that

If the various ground can't get decent sunlight, then the pitches tend to cut up badly

Stade de France isn't helped by the whole methane thing, which prevents any undersoil heating for snowy conditions
tealady
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“If the various ground can't get decent sunlight, then the pitches tend to cut up badly”

Are you saying it always rains in Wales?!! Have to say every time I have gone to see my sister in law, it rains!!

Welsh team lead by Jenkins
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
France: Huget; Clerc, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medard; Michalak, Parra; Domingo, Kayser, Mas, Vahaamahina, Maestri, Claassen, Dusautoir (capt), Picamoles.

Replacements
: Guirado, Debaty, Ducalcon, Samson, Nyanga, Machenaud, Trinh-Duc, Fritz or Fickou.

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny (Blues); Alex Cuthbert (Blues), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Blues), George North (Scarlets); Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Gethin Jenkins (capt, Toulon), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) Ian Evans (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Toby Faletau (Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Paul James (Bath), Scott Andrews (Blues), Andrew Coombs (Dragons), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Lloyd Williams (Blues), James Hook Perpignan), Scott Williams (Scarlets).
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by tealady:
“Are you saying it always rains in Wales?!! Have to say every time I have gone to see my sister in law, it rains!!

Welsh team lead by Jenkins”

I was more referring to the fact that lack of sunlight hinders the groundskeeper's job of getting the grass in a decent state. I think that's the reason why Aviva stadium has only 3 proper stands, they need light to get onto the pitch since the revamp
apaul
14-03-2013
The reason the Aviva does not have much of a stand at one end is because of residents' objections to anything bigger.
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by apaul:
“The reason the Aviva does not have much of a stand at one end is because of residents' objections to anything bigger.”

ok, I heard that it was a consideration for the pitch
----
Italy Team: Andrea Masi; Giovanbattista Venditti, Gonzalo Canale, Gonzalo Garcia, Luke McLean; Luciano Orquera, Edoardo Gori; Sergio Parisse (capt), Simone Favaro, Alessandro Zanni; Joshua Furno, Quintin Geldenhuys; Leonardo Cittadini, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Andrea Lo Cicero

Replacements: Davide Giazzon, Michele Rizzo, Alberto De Marchi, Antonio Pavanello, Francesco Minto, Paul Derbyshire, Tobias Botes, Tommaso Benvenuti
sensoria
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“France: Huget; Clerc, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medard; Michalak, Parra; Domingo, Kayser, Mas, Vahaamahina, Maestri, Claassen, Dusautoir (capt), Picamoles.

Replacements
: Guirado, Debaty, Ducalcon, Samson, Nyanga, Machenaud, Trinh-Duc, Fritz or Fickou.

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny (Blues); Alex Cuthbert (Blues), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Blues), George North (Scarlets); Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Gethin Jenkins (capt, Toulon), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) Ian Evans (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Toby Faletau (Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Paul James (Bath), Scott Andrews (Blues), Andrew Coombs (Dragons), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Lloyd Williams (Blues), James Hook Perpignan), Scott Williams (Scarlets).”

Thats an exceptional backline, cant see how it has lost a game.
Finny Skeleta
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by sensoria:
“Thats an exceptional backline, cant see how it has lost a game.”

You could have Lomu, Gibson, Horan, Davies and Cullen out there but it doesn't really matter if your gameplan doesn't involve getting the ball to them.
tealady
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“I was more referring to the fact that lack of sunlight hinders the groundskeeper's job of getting the grass in a decent state.”

Thanks
platelet
14-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“France: Huget; Clerc, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medard; Michalak, Parra; Domingo, Kayser, Mas, Vahaamahina, Maestri, Claassen, Dusautoir (capt), Picamoles.

Replacements
: Guirado, Debaty, Ducalcon, Samson, Nyanga, Machenaud, Trinh-Duc, Fritz or Fickou. ”

Really again? What odds were they giving for for a French wooden spoon at the start of the competition, 'cause that's the only reason I can think of for that decision
Mike Teevee
14-03-2013
Scotland: 15-Stuart Hogg; 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Sean Lamont, 12-Matt Scott, 11-Tim Visser; 10-Duncan Weir, 9-Greig Laidlaw; 1-Ryan Grant, 2-Ross Ford, 3-Euan Murray, 4-Grant Gilchrist, 5-Jim Hamilton, 6-Alasdair Strokosch, 7-Kelly Brown (captain), 8-Johnnie Beattie

Replacements: 16-Dougie Hall, 17-Moray Low, 18-Geoff Cross, 19-Alastair Kellock, 20-Ryan Wilson, 21-Henry Pyrgos, 22-Ruaridh Jackson, 23-Max Evans

Ireland:
R Kearney, C Gilroy, B O'Driscoll, L Marshall, K Earls, P Jackson, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross, M McCarthy, D Ryan, P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, D Kilcoyne, S Archer, D Toner, I Henderson, P Marshall, I Madigan, L Fitzgerald.
david1955
15-03-2013
Interesting article by Owen Slot in The Times in which he says the British Lions should not appoint an official captain, but wait until the tour to see who is in form and then select a captain on a match to match basis. He doesn't feel that Sam Warburton , Brian O'Driscoll or Chris Robshaw are certainties for the Test team.

Predictions for the weekend ( I hope I'm wrong )

Italy 13-21 Ireland

Wales 23-12 England

France 29 - 6 Scotland
Mike Teevee
15-03-2013
I'm going to be contrary

Italy 23-20 Ireland
Wales 16-18 England*
France 33-13 Scotland

*here's hoping
Finny Skeleta
15-03-2013
Originally Posted by david1955:
“Interesting article by Owen Slot in The Times in which he says the British Lions should not appoint an official captain, but wait until the tour to see who is in form and then select a captain on a match to match basis. He doesn't feel that Sam Warburton , Brian O'Driscoll or Chris Robshaw are certainties for the Test team.”

I'd say that's about right.

There are debates about every position from 1 to 15 and as things stand at the moment the only person looking likely to start somewhere is Halfpenny and, for all the man-love I have for him, I wouldn't say he's anything like captaincy material. Nice bloke, great player but Buck Shelford he ain't.

Looking back at the last few tours it was pretty easy to pick a captain because O'Connell, O'Driscoll and Johnson were already having their names stitched into their jerseys two years earlier, now there is no such thing.

I think it would be daft to reserve a place for anyone in this team. Best thing would be to pick a tour captain, a figurehead such as BOD, but publicly state early on that the on-field captains will be selected based on performances on tour. That way they can use the warm up matches to see which players are in form and which combinations work well and not be hamstrung by an automatic selection in the tests.
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