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The All Purpose Rugby Union Thread (P2)
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swordman
17-03-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“The rankings are based on performance over time - not just 3 or 4 games (oh, and Wales were hardly flowing with ambition through the Tournament).

Keep those blinkers on”

However two titles in two years says they are the best NH side ... Their demolition of the self proclaimed world champions clearly showed there is quite a gulf ...

looks like you will be holding on to those blinkers yourself for a bit yet.
Frood
17-03-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“However two titles in two years says they are the best NH side ... Their demolition of the self proclaimed world champions clearly showed there is quite a gulf ...
.”

Sorry but when did England proclaim themselves World Champions?

They earned the title 10 years ago......

And Wales lost to ireland 6 weeks ago so........................
swordman
17-03-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“Sorry but when did England proclaim themselves World Champions?

They earned the title 10 years ago......

And Wales lost to ireland 6 weeks ago so........................”

http://www.standard.co.uk/pasportsfe...r-8497888.html

Sounds like it to me ... really wants to concentrate on propping and avoid getting his arse handed to him by Jones.

Wales have been inconsistent I agree however you need to look at more than just scores no one did to Ireland what Wales did to them in the second half. The reason they lost to Ireland was because they were incapable of performing even the most basic rugby task in the first half.

England are a good side but I'm afraid they would lose to that Welsh side 7 times out of ten - they have already lost 3 on the bounce to Wales.
backofsofatvfan
17-03-2013
Originally Posted by Frood:
“Sorry but when did England proclaim themselves World Champions?

They earned the title 10 years ago......

And Wales lost to ireland 6 weeks ago so........................”

Wales may have lost to Ireland 6 weeks ago but that's their only loss in 10 NH games
England have lost 2 of their last 10 NH games (both to Wales)
Scotland have lost 9 of their last 10
Ireland have lost 5 of the last 10
France have lost 5 of the last 10
Italy have lost 7 of the last 10.

Yes, the rankings are over every game since 1993 (iirc) but that in itself means that its pointless quoting rankings in this sort of scenario as the argument is that THIS team is the best since that of the 70's and is, arguably, the best in the NH so to include the 1990's in that is doing the current team a disservice.
CGG_12
17-03-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“http://www.standard.co.uk/pasportsfe...r-8497888.html

Sounds like it to me ... really wants to concentrate on propping and avoid getting his arse handed to him by Jones.

Wales have been inconsistent I agree however you need to look at more than just scores no one did to Ireland what Wales did to them in the second half. The reason they lost to Ireland was because they were incapable of performing even the most basic rugby task in the first half.

England are a good side but I'm afraid they would lose to that Welsh side 7 times out of ten - they have already lost 3 on the bounce to Wales.”

Yeah and as an Irish man I can admit we couldn't have played Wales at a better time. Confidence was very low after their Summer and Autumn tests. When they decided to start playing in the second half they tore us to pieces.

I think people are being harsh on Wales over those losses to Australia. There was very little between the sides and Wales were playing with an outhalf who basically forgot how to play since RWC 2011
vaughan6477
17-03-2013
Let's not forget we've had a caretaker coach in charge of Wales since last summers tour to Australia. That's Howley who had even less experience of being Head Coach at any level than Lancaster has.
MeicY
18-03-2013
Three good things to come out of this 6N

1) Rhys Priestland's days as #1 choice flyarff are over. He has now slipped to 3rd choice behind Biggar and Hook

2) We finally have strength in depth in the forwards. Multiple choices in the front row, stability and ability in the second, and an embarrassment of riches in the back. Any combination of Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Toby Faletau, Sam Warburton, Aaron Shingler, Andrew Coombs would work well in positions 6-8

3) Belief has been restored from an impossible situation.
CGG_12
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by MeicY:
“Three good things to come out of this 6N

1) Rhys Priestland's days as #1 choice flyarff are over. He has now slipped to 3rd choice behind Biggar and Hook

2) We finally have strength in depth in the forwards. Multiple choices in the front row, stability and ability in the second, and an embarrassment of riches in the back. Any combination of Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Toby Faletau, Sam Warburton, Aaron Shingler, Andrew Coombs would work well in positions 6-8

3) Belief has been restored from an impossible situation.”

A serious amount of back-rowers. And do not forget player of the 2012 six nations Dan Lydiate has to come back into the frame!
Finny Skeleta
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by CGG_12:
“A serious amount of back-rowers. And do not forget player of the 2012 six nations Dan Lydiate has to come back into the frame!”

It's incredible to think that when everyone is fit one out of Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau, Tipuric and Jones won't even make it into the 23.

Same thing with one out of Evans, AW Jones, Charteris and Davies.

Considering some of the dross Wales have had to put in the pack over the last 25 years or so it is a blessed relief.
sensoria
18-03-2013
Apparently England got carried away by one win against New Zealand.......

beating England and suddenly Wales are the best team in the world and only have to turn up to the world cup in 2015 to win it.

I take nothing away from Wales win, they played a brutal game plan and in the cold light of day removed from the emotions of the bitter loss I can accept they were a level above England and any other teams performance in the 6 nations.

However, only when Wales look outside of their hatred for England and actually bring that intensity to games against SH sides consistanly can they ever be a real force.

If Gatland fills the lions with Welsh players we will lose the lions series.
Kiko H Fan
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Diaz:
“Can you name a sport in which Wales outperform England on a regular basis?”

Baseball.
Mike Teevee
18-03-2013
Well done Wales

Though Saturday was horrible as an England fan, I was impressed by Wales intensity and their ability to smother England.

I agree with sensoria about the slight hysteria over the win. If England (or at least the press) were getting ahead of themselves after New Zealand win, then what does that say about the way people are reacting to Wales 6Nation win.

For all the talk about only being a bad half against Ireland away from winning back to back Grand Slams, they just scrapped win against France. According to some France didn't turn up England, yet they certainly played better for an hour against us than they did against Wales.

Wales have got a fantastic team, but they've beaten Australia just twice since 1987. People suggesting that the upcoming Lions tour be made up of Wales plus 1 or 2 others should think again.

If Wales approach each game as though they're playing the old enemy, then maybe they'd get better results against southern hemisphere teams
Dai13371
18-03-2013
Garland won't be daft enough to fill the Lions test side with Welshmen.

Wales has gone mad but its not because of a hatred, that sort of talk has no place here. Its a century old rivalry nothing more nothing less. Wales have been on the receiving end of some utter tonkings at the hands of England including losing by 50 plus points in a RWC warm up. Its a majestic feeling when the role is reversed.
Wmsheep
18-03-2013
Ok, so the new IRB world rankings are out today; shame that Wales have not taken England's place at No 4 in the world (cos of the sums, it was never going to happen ), but they HAVE cut the difference between the 2 teams down to 0.36 points, from 3.52 points last week.

As an aside, using today's new rankings the draw for the 2013 RWC, had it taken place today and the balls drawn in the same order, would look like this.

Pool A

Australia
Wales (was England)
Ireland (was Wales)
Oceana 1
Playoff Winners


Pool B

South Africa
Samoa
Italy (was Scotland)
Asia 1
Americas 2


Pool C

New Zealand
Argentina
Tonga
Europe 1
Africa 1


Pool D

England (was France)
France (was Ireland)
Scotland (was Italy)
Americas 1
Europe 2

Not sure if it a better draw or not
Finny Skeleta
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by sensoria:
“Apparently England got carried away by one win against New Zealand.......

beating England and suddenly Wales are the best team in the world and only have to turn up to the world cup in 2015 to win it.

I take nothing away from Wales win, they played a brutal game plan and in the cold light of day removed from the emotions of the bitter loss I can accept they were a level above England and any other teams performance in the 6 nations.

However, only when Wales look outside of their hatred for England and actually bring that intensity to games against SH sides consistanly can they ever be a real force.

If Gatland fills the lions with Welsh players we will lose the lions series.”

While a lot of the seven-weeks-a-year rugby followers in Wales still have the 'as long as we beat the English' attitude the genuine rugby fraternity has left that boorish view back in the 90s where it belongs.

The mood in Wales wasn't lifted this weekend by the fact that we beat the English; it was because we dominated from start to finish against a top 4 side in a meaningful game with everything to play for. It wasn't the colour of the opposition shirts, it was the manner of the win. If we had beaten a Slam-chasing, NZ-beating Ireland or France in the same way then the feeling would be just the same.

The problem with Wales is that since the current resurgence started ten years ago we are still behind where we should be. If you look back at what we achieved in 2005 and the quality of the players that would be coming through in the next decade then we have been performing under-par in that time. By now we should have been regularly competing with and beating Southern Hemisphere teams not to mention being regular contenders for the Six Nations.

Unfortunately there is an inbuilt tendency for self-destruction in Wales. The whole Ruddock-gate thing and the Gareth Jenkins wilderness years took a lot of the the wind out of our sails and the career trajectory of Gavin Henson is a perfect example of this problem. Wales' biggest enemy isn't England anymore, it is ourselves.

That's why this victory seems like another step up. We've done Slams; we've done winning crucial last games; we've done beating up Scotland and Italy; we've done beating England, France and Ireland relatively comfortably and we've done pushing the SH teams close. However we were doing all that back in 2005, that's why last year's slam seemed a little bit flat, we hadn't really progressed since then.

Finally administering a thumping to a top side feels like a step up. Hopefully (and I've said this three times in the last few years and it hasn't happened yet) Wales can push on from here and get to the next level. A Lions win with a healthy Welsh contingent could be the spark that helps us do that as in 1971. However it is also possible that the tour could destroy us as in 2001.
Smiley433
18-03-2013
When was the last time England scored just three points (or less) in a cap international?
afx237vi
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“When was the last time England scored just three points (or less) in a cap international?”

When they lost 36-0 to South Africa in the 2007 RWC.
platelet
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Wmsheep:
“...
Pool D

England (was France)
France (was Ireland)
Scotland (was Italy)
Americas 1
Europe 2

Not sure if it a better draw or not”

It would be for England, christ I'd kill for that
sensoria
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“However two titles in two years says they are the best NH side ... Their demolition of the self proclaimed world champions clearly showed there is quite a gulf ...

looks like you will be holding on to those blinkers yourself for a bit yet.”

You do know Ireland beat you don't you?
backofsofatvfan
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Finny Skeleta:
“While a lot of the seven-weeks-a-year rugby followers in Wales still have the 'as long as we beat the English' attitude the genuine rugby fraternity has left that boorish view back in the 90s where it belongs.

The mood in Wales wasn't lifted this weekend by the fact that we beat the English; it was because we dominated from start to finish against a top 4 side in a meaningful game with everything to play for. It wasn't the colour of the opposition shirts, it was the manner of the win. If we had beaten a Slam-chasing, NZ-beating Ireland or France in the same way then the feeling would be just the same.

The problem with Wales is that since the current resurgence started ten years ago we are still behind where we should be. If you look back at what we achieved in 2005 and the quality of the players that would be coming through in the next decade then we have been performing under-par in that time. By now we should have been regularly competing with and beating Southern Hemisphere teams not to mention being regular contenders for the Six Nations.

Unfortunately there is an inbuilt tendency for self-destruction in Wales. The whole Ruddock-gate thing and the Gareth Jenkins wilderness years took a lot of the the wind out of our sails and the career trajectory of Gavin Henson is a perfect example of this problem. Wales' biggest enemy isn't England anymore, it is ourselves.

That's why this victory seems like another step up. We've done Slams; we've done winning crucial last games; we've done beating up Scotland and Italy; we've done beating England, France and Ireland relatively comfortably and we've done pushing the SH teams close. However we were doing all that back in 2005, that's why last year's slam seemed a little bit flat, we hadn't really progressed since then.

Finally administering a thumping to a top side feels like a step up. Hopefully (and I've said this three times in the last few years and it hasn't happened yet) Wales can push on from here and get to the next level. A Lions win with a healthy Welsh contingent could be the spark that helps us do that as in 1971. However it is also possible that the tour could destroy us as in 2001.”

I agree with this BUT I believe that maintaining a decent NH challenge for 2 years running IS an improvement on 2005 and 2008.

As for the SH teams, I think it is unfair to look at last summer specifically. Wales were without their coach due to injury and even with that uncertainty they only trailed by 8 points. We've pushed Australia close a few times but not as consistently as we did last year in the 3 summer games and the autumn game (losing by a total of 12 points over 4 games). I know it is still a loss but the consistency of pushing them close is something we've never been able to achieve.

The AI's were blighted with injuries - we had 18 players out with injury at one point and didn't have the strength in depth to cover it. If anything, that has always been a huge issue in Wales - strength in depth.

This six nations has shown that we are developing that, it doesn't come over night. I mean, we were missing Luke Charteris and Bradley Davies from the second row, something which caused a huge headache during the autumn, and then in the 6 nations, even missing those players, there was still a competition in those places with Andrew Coombes, Ian Evans and Alun Wyn Jones. The back row the same, having the pick of Aaron Shingler, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric and, again, Andrew Coombes, is a priveleged position Wales hasn't found itself in in a while.

Since the RWC Wales have been developing and, yes, the autumn and the first half against Ireland were heartbreaking o watch but thery are still a great team with a developing consistency. To have not conceeded a try in 360 minutes of rugby is a phenomenal achievement for any side and certainly a record for Welsh Rugby and the confidence levels generally in the team is something that will take them on. After semi-final of the world cup, playing 60 minutes with 14 men, grand slam, 6 nations championship and 8 straight defeats have meant that this team have learned what they can achieve when they play well but also what happens when they are not, the Welsh public will criticise them and expect more from them but will back them all the way when they do achieve.

Well done Wales for a great performance against the English and well done the fans for believing that it was possible even before the game had kicked off - the mood from Wales was certainly far more positive than the mood from the English (the English I know, of course).

Onwards and upwards and here's to a fantastic Lions tour and may it contain many Welsh players, if not in the team, in the squad at least - they deserve it!
Mike Teevee
18-03-2013
I agree that Wales certainly look a better prospect than they did after 2008 Grand Slam, but is everyone not overlooking France for NH teams

Sure they can be complete basket cases, but I think on their day they outplay any other team from 6 Nations.

After they were able to turn around a woeful RWC and get to the final, where with a different referee they'd have got the penalty they needed to win.

I get the sense of pride that the Welsh have over their recent 6N success, but I think all the British fans are a bit guilty of think that only Wales, England and maybe Ireland are the be all and end all of the NH rugby.
backofsofatvfan
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“I agree that Wales certainly look a better prospect than they did after 2008 Grand Slam, but is everyone not overlooking France for NH teams

Sure they can be complete basket cases, but I think on their day they outplay any other team from 6 Nations.

After they were able to turn around a woeful RWC and get to the final, where with a different referee they'd have got the penalty they needed to win.

I get the sense of pride that the Welsh have over their recent 6N success, but I think all the British fans are a bit guilty of think that only Wales, England and maybe Ireland are the be all and end all of the NH rugby.”

But I think France are SO up and down that they are lacking the consistency that teams like Wales are building. Yes they pulled it in for the RWC but they only played one good game, they tripped and stumbled into that final, this year they played 4 awful games in the 6N and then pulled a decent on out of the bag on Saturday. Then there was 1 good performance in the autumn against Australia (ok, better than good, phenomenal) but only 2 wins in last years 6 nations. They seem to be able to pull a good performance out of the bag when their life depends on it but that seems to be about it.
Mike Teevee
18-03-2013
Everything you say is true, but wonders never cease and they could develop the consistency that Wales currently have

RWC is 2 years away, I'd say a lot can happen in that time for all 6N teams

sensoria
18-03-2013
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/...-2013031863014

This made me laugh, childish I know but I am really bitter.
I have never been so disapointed in a game, I will be honest away from home I always thought it would be tough but to get beaten in the manner they did was just heartbreaking. I coach, play and live rugby.

My heart is always broken by expectation. I could accept losing to anyone but I never want to lose to Wales as they never let you forget it.
backofsofatvfan
18-03-2013
Originally Posted by Mike Teevee:
“Everything you say is true, but wonders never cease and they could develop the consistency that Wales currently have

RWC is 2 years away, I'd say a lot can happen in that time for all 6N teams

”

Absolutely, I'm not saying that Wales have won the World Cup or anything. Lol. Just excited at the prospect at what we can do if we continue improving in the same vein.
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