MSF time signal outages

SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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I was amazed this morning to find that the MSF 60khz transmission from Anthorn is off air today for maintenance, just a day after the clocks changed when there must be people going in to work and finding clocks which have not updated due to interference or not getting a decent strength signal.

http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/products-and-services/msf-outages

I found out because I suggested my mother put a new battery in a clock as the digital display was looking very weak, and once the new battery was fitted we just sat there waiting for it to show the right time, and I kept saying 'give it a few minutes and it'll be fine' but it never was. When I came home and checked the maintenance page I soon saw why!

However, leaving aside the bizarre timing of this scheduled maintenance I find myself wondering why this service needs to be shut down so frequently. I appreciate that most broadcast services have a great deal of redundancy built in so that it is often possible to keep a reserve transmitter running whilst any maintenance is carried out, and maybe this isn't seen as necessary here, but surely switching off what is, after all, a public service so frequently could be avoided.
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  • tom558tom558 Posts: 547
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    Thanks for that Spot,I was amazed by how long the transmitter will,'potentially'be down for.

    Will be interesting to see how far my clocks will drift,without a time correction signal.
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    tom558 wrote: »
    Thanks for that Spot,I was amazed by how long the transmitter will,'potentially'be down for.

    Will be interesting to see how far my clocks will drift,without a time correction signal.

    Well hopefully they will switch it on again overnight, but what a daft time to take it off air. There must have been people going in to work today to find clocks which haven't updated, which can often be cured just by moving the device a bit or putting it on a window sill. It's a common problem in some buildings where there are all sorts of reasons why a clock isn't getting a particularly robust signal. There must be people attempting to 'fix' their clocks right now and wondering why they can't!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,398
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    My wall clock uses the German signal (bought from Lidl) and so is working fine. ;)

    It does need careful positioning though - preferably on an easterly facing wall.
  • tom558tom558 Posts: 547
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    Interesting PDF here, ref radio controlled clocks,while we are on the subject :)
    http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2429.pdf
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,316
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    Spot wrote: »
    I find myself wondering why this service needs to be shut down so frequently

    To gauge the level of complaints before announcing a permanent closedown?

    I see that the Swiss equivalent at Prangins closed at the beginning of Jan.
  • lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    RadioRob wrote: »
    To gauge the level of complaints before announcing a permanent closedown?

    They have always had shutdowns for maintence going back to the days when it was at Rugby. Wasn't it one day a month then a longer period once a year?

    It does seem surprising to have it just after the change to BST but most cheap clocks tend to be DCF77.
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    I'd suggest 'surprising' is not perhaps the most appropriate word to use when they shut it down on the first working day after the clocks change!
  • brumlad36brumlad36 Posts: 2,802
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    Spot wrote: »
    I was amazed this morning to find that the MSF 60khz transmission from Anthorn is off air today for maintenance, just a day after the clocks changed when there must be people going in to work and finding clocks which have not updated due to interference or not getting a decent strength signal.

    http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/products-and-services/msf-outages

    I found out because I suggested my mother put a new battery in a clock as the digital display was looking very weak, and once the new battery was fitted we just sat there waiting for it to show the right time, and I kept saying 'give it a few minutes and it'll be fine' but it never was. When I came home and checked the maintenance page I soon saw why!

    However, leaving aside the bizarre timing of this scheduled maintenance I find myself wondering why this service needs to be shut down so frequently. I appreciate that most broadcast services have a great deal of redundancy built in so that it is often possible to keep a reserve transmitter running whilst any maintenance is carried out, and maybe this isn't seen as necessary here, but surely switching off what is, after all, a public service so frequently could be avoided.

    And there I was, thinking MSF was at Rugby :confused:. I've Googled it and found out it moved to Anthorn, Cumbria in 2007!

    The info says it may be switched on at night or over the weekend, before maintenance is completed on 6th April. It did not come back on last night (Monday).

    Chris.
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    brumlad36 wrote: »
    And there I was, thinking MSF was at Rugby :confused:. I've Googled it and found out it moved to Anthorn, Cumbria in 2007!

    The info says it may be switched on at night or over the weekend, before maintenance is completed on 6th April. It did not come back on last night (Monday).

    Chris.

    No, it didn't! I have deliberately 'set' one of my clocks so it is wrong (by removing the battery and putting it back in) so I can see when any sort of service is restored. I still can't believe the timing - yesterday might well have seen a spike in purchases of radio controlled devices, as must surely happen after each clock change which will put the issue into peoples' minds - imagine someone going home last night with their shiny new radio controlled clock and trying to get it to work!
  • busengbuseng Posts: 241
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    After changing the batteries in my Aldi weather Station I found it wouldn't synchronise with the time server again. I thought it was a fault with the unit as it has been taking a time long to sync a few times recently. I then looked at my kitchen wall clock & noticed the radio symbol was out on that as well.
    After a bit of Googling I found the MSF web site saying the transmitter was switched off from 8am 26/03 until 8pm 06/04! How long, nearly a fortnight. What are they doing, building a whole aerial system? After all it is only 5 years old.
  • brumlad36brumlad36 Posts: 2,802
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    buseng wrote: »
    After changing the batteries in my Aldi weather Station I found it wouldn't synchronise with the time server again. I thought it was a fault with the unit as it has been taking a time long to sync a few times recently. I then looked at my kitchen wall clock & noticed the radio symbol was out on that as well.
    After a bit of Googling I found the MSF web site saying the transmitter was switched off from 8am 26/03 until 8pm 06/04! How long, nearly a fortnight. What are they doing, building a whole aerial system? After all it is only 5 years old.

    I'm surprised that your Aldi weather station won't sync, as they usually use DSF in Germany. All my Aldi purchased radio clocks use DSF, which is transmitting normally at the moment. Try placing your unit near an East-facing window and tell it to search for a signal (flashing tower).

    I've done the same as Spot, by removing and re-inserting the batteries in my MSF clock, to see when service is resumed.

    Chris.
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    One of my RC clocks is a little alarm clock which was bought from Lidl a couple of years ago, and it uses MSF, which surprised me as most of their stuff (and Aldi's) use DCF.
  • catherine91catherine91 Posts: 2,636
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    This morning I thought something looked different about the display on my alarm clock and realised there was no symbol that's normally there when it's receiving a signal!
  • busengbuseng Posts: 241
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    brumlad36 wrote: »
    I'm surprised that your Aldi weather station won't sync, as they usually use DSF in Germany. All my Aldi purchased radio clocks use DSF, which is transmitting normally at the moment. Try placing your unit near an East-facing window and tell it to search for a signal (flashing tower).

    I've done the same as Spot, by removing and re-inserting the batteries in my MSF clock, to see when service is resumed.

    Chris.

    It says MSF in the instruction manual on both the weather station & my kitchen wall clock, as I said the radio beacon symbol has disappeared off that as well without removing the batteries..
  • busengbuseng Posts: 241
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    Spot wrote: »
    One of my RC clocks is a little alarm clock which was bought from Lidl a couple of years ago, and it uses MSF, which surprised me as most of their stuff (and Aldi's) use DCF.

    As I said in #16, both my Aldi items also use MSF.
  • brumlad36brumlad36 Posts: 2,802
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    buseng wrote: »
    As I said in #16, both my Aldi items also use MSF.

    I stand corrected. Thought all Aldi & Lidl units used the German DSF :o.

    Chris.
  • lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    This morning I thought something looked different about the display on my alarm clock and realised there was no symbol that's normally there when it's receiving a signal!

    Radios obviously vary but often (usually) the radio symbol on the clock display just means that it has received an update in the last 24 hours (or some other period). The symbol often/usually flashes whilst it is actually updating.
  • Everything GoesEverything Goes Posts: 12,972
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    That may explain why ive had very odd times on 2 of my clocks. They started displaying time I think it was plus several hours. I guessing it was picking up a signal from a much more distant transmitter.
  • radiosgaloreradiosgalore Posts: 5,348
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    Mine is 4 hours slow. I think it changed last night or the night before. No idea where its getting a signal from though :confused:
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    I'm tempted to contact a newspaper about this. It really is ridiculous that they can just take the service off air for days on end. No one is going to worry about it being off for a few hours, but there has been no overnight restoration and there must be people not aware of what's happening who think their clocks are faulty. What on earth can they be doing which necessitates such a long interruption?
  • lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    Spot wrote: »
    I'm tempted to contact a newspaper about this. It really is ridiculous that they can just take the service off air for days on end. No one is going to worry about it being off for a few hours, but there has been no overnight restoration and there must be people not aware of what's happening who think their clocks are faulty. What on earth can they be doing which necessitates such a long interruption?

    As has been written earlier, MSF has had an annual maintenance period with shutdown for as long as I can remember. The shutdown period is publicised in advance.

    Most clocks only update once a night so how much are they going to drift in a couple of days?

    Serious users tend to often now use GPS receivers.

    I wonder how many of those complaining about their clocks not changing to BST have a DCF77 clock!

    Though I suppose the Daily Mail might find some way to blame it on the BBC. :)

    The Germans have a reserve site which they use during their maintenance periods but it would increase costs if that was done here and that is not likely to happen for a free service.
  • SpotSpot Posts: 25,118
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    That may explain why ive had very odd times on 2 of my clocks. They started displaying time I think it was plus several hours. I guessing it was picking up a signal from a much more distant transmitter.
    Mine is 4 hours slow. I think it changed last night or the night before. No idea where its getting a signal from though :confused:


    It seems there are only two other transmissions on 60khz - one is in the United States (Colorado) and the other in Japan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

    Japan is eight hours ahead of the UK.

    Obviously any device using the US signal must be like those using DCF77, which can be adjusted for different time zones.

    Would clocks designed for use here be able to decode the signals from either of these transmitters?

    I should think it is unlikely that either could be picked up, but according to this site, DCF77 has been received in Australia!

    http://genesisradio.com.au/VK2DX/time_signals.html
  • Galaxy266Galaxy266 Posts: 7,049
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    I have two Radio Controlled Clocks which were both purchased, at different times, from Lidl.

    The later one uses DSF from Germany and has updated and is running fine.

    The older one uses MSF and happens to be about 3 hours slow! Can't do anything to adjust it.

    I think the timing of the decision to switch off MSF for maintenance is just crazy. Perhaps they're planning to switch it off permanently, who knows ???!!!
  • Everything GoesEverything Goes Posts: 12,972
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    Spot wrote: »
    It seems there are only two other transmissions on 60khz - one is in the United States (Colorado) and the other in Japan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

    Japan is eight hours ahead of the UK.

    Obviously any device using the US signal must be like those using DCF77, which can be adjusted for different time zones.

    Would clocks designed for use here be able to decode the signals from either of these transmitters?

    I should think it is unlikely that either could be picked up, but according to this site, DCF77 has been received in Australia!

    http://genesisradio.com.au/VK2DX/time_signals.html

    Very interesting! I will pay more attention to the time difference next time it happens. I have a total of 3 devices. 2 clocks and one watch. My Casio Waveceptor is a 5 band device but its probably got a very small antenna and haven't seen any strange times on it. The Oregon Scientific RM113E (a MSF clock) has a small antenna at the side. The other one im not sure what it is?
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