My views on “the good vocalist verses weak songwriter”.

In my best Simon Cowell voice.
Matt isn’t a “good” vocalist............he is an amazing vocalist". And he has every single review of his concert to back that up. Every single review (even the few that were a bit cooler about his set) talked about his fantastic voice and all mentioned he was in it for the long term.

Weak songwriter – well I guess music is subjective – and most good albums have “OK” songs with a 1 or 2 stand outs. Well for me there were more than 1 or 2 standouts and they were all his co-writes. The standouts to me are Letters, Pull Me Under, BOABH, WOW (done acoustically) and Starlight.
He also has the 7S album to back up his ability as a songwriter. Dirt, FNS, Paved Paradise, Without You, Just For a Day, Youngblood. I could almost list the entire album tbh. His lyrics are outstanding.
My one criticism of a few of the songs on Letters – Stars & Lovers , Faithless and Reflections – is that they have a feel that it is a bit old fashioned to me. Not cheesy – but belonging to a different era. But that’s fine in a way as they are just album tracks and I have actually grown to love Faithless, to the point that I am playing it a lot. An old fashioned feel doesn’t make a song bad – just not “single” material in the current climate.
The reason why the 2nd & 3rd singles didn’t do so well is obvious. Nothing to do with the songs, just the airplay. RFYL put the boot in for Matt – many people just didn’t like it. I did like it, but when I heard the whole album, I was really disappointed that they went with it as the lead single and not Starlight. Besides, not many albums’ 2nd & 3rd singles get much airplay. I have quoted Will Young’s chart positions several times – very similar to Matt’s and like Matt the main airplay on the later singles has been on R2.
My main worry for album 2 is that the lead single suffers the same airplay as Starlight and Amazing – however if he at least gets R2 it should still sell the album. But as a single it won’t be a big hit.
As far as covers go – well there’s nothing wrong with a cover if you bring something new to the song. Matt did this with FTEISYF, Uninvited, SFTTR and BOMT. As long as an album isn’t chokka with covers and the lead single shouldn’t be a cover, then I have no issue with it. I would hate a cover to take the place of better self-penned songs, but a deluxe version of an album with extras including covers or “B” side covers is fine by me.
TBC

The boring image:

Well I just don't find his image boring, but more importantly his live performances are anything but boring. If you want a boring live performer look no further than Rebecca (sorry Manderley but imho she has a long way to go on the live performance front).

I think Matt has actually deliberately tried to tone down the "womaniser" image - it isn't who he really is and he doesn't need it to sell songs. I love who he is - and if some people on the MF don't, so what, they are never going to buy his music anyway, so trying to convert their opinion is a waste of time.

Great post Cardie. I don't venture onto the MF very often but I did post in a thread yesterday that has since been removed! So I'm glad to see the mods are tightening up a bit.

1) You pretty much said it all on that one. XF single and first single were obviously going to be the biggest sellers, and they happened to not be written by him. If Starlight had been released first I am convinced it would have sold more than RFYL.

You have hit the nail on there head there re: Uninvited. It's not really the song that makes people love it, it's the break in the middle into the rocking out part (sorry, don't know the correct musical terms ), he can easily create a song like that of his own.

I don't need to comment on whether he's a good vocalist or not, that's not even debatable - fan or not. There are artists I don't like because their voice isn't my taste or I don't like their songs but I wouldn't say they can't sing.

2) I can agree with this to an extent. Some of them are a bit on the schmaltzy side, he even said himself "pass the sick bucket" when talking about Amazing so I wouldn't be surprised if he feels that way too. If you compare Letters to his previous work it is definitely more of a cheesy pop album sound but there's only so much freedom you can get when you're an X Factor winner. I think (and hope) the next album will move away from this. I love Letters but this is my main critisism of it

3) Personally I don't think he's changed from what he was on XF. It was only the tabloids that gave him a different image which I take with a pinch of salt anyway. I'd much rather him be who he actually is to that prick in the papers anyway

Hi Crabbie, you just knew I was going to reply, didn't you?

If you guys don't mind me discussing Rebecca on your thread in a civilized way.

I agree that she has some things to learn regarding stagecraft and admits this herself. I don't agree with the boring tag though. I base this on my attendance at her Glasgow concert where her audience were very far from bored and seemed to connect with her shy chatter combined with the soulful vocals. She received a great reception in Glasgow as I believe Matt did as well.

Crabbie, was your opinion based on seeing her on TV as opposed to a live concert? Her live concert performances are completely different to her TV performances.

Anyway, no offence taken and it's good to discuss these things in a positive manner.

By the way guys I am off to Canada tomorrow for 3 months. I will be in Saskatchewan, which is the home province of Joni Mitchell which leads me on to say that my favourite Matt cover is River.

Thanks for your forbearance with a lonely Rebecca fan.

You'r very tolerant Manderley - and yes my opinion is based on XF performances (I thought Sweet Dreams was really good). Basically Rebecca's sound is just not part of my musical make-up. It doesn't mean that I don't inderstand why others like her - she has a very distinctive tone and she is beautiful. But if you can understand that my main musical love is guitar driven band music, you will understand why I can't see myself buying a ticket to her concerts. I rarely buy female vocalists' music. Exceptions for me are Alanis Morrisette and Dionne Warwick (I surprise myself on loving Dionne in it is totally out of my usual music zone. But there is something in her phrasing and tone that gets me). The Joni Mitchell cover made me explore more of her songs on YT and I actually do like her, but I haven't downloaded anything except River yet.

I have said many times, we can't all like the same stuff - but I get cross at the tone and verbal attacks that are taken against Matt by a few DS posters. I do appreciatiate you though - probably the sweetest poster on DS.

Just want to say again what a great post Cardie - here are my thoughts - i'll apologise now as I can already feel i'm probably going to say things i've kept quite about for ages but feel very strongly about but worry I maybe the only one that thinks like this and may come across as a bit of a conspiracy theorist (I'm not!!!)
1) that Matt is a good vocalist but not a good songwriter - I don't know the technicalities of this from a vocal experts point of view, but we already know he has a pretty impressive vocal range for a bloke, he can control his falsetto amazingly well flipping back and forth which I understand to be very difficult. However for me the proof is in his live performances and the fact that he has maintained the same quality across the whole tour - I was floored when I heard him in York at the clarity of his voice - and from all accounts it was just as strong at Hammersmith. All the reviews acknowledge - 'the boy can sing' - i think the criticism sometimes levelled at him comes from those who don't like his particular style of singing (ie singing like a girl!!) On a personal note I wish he wouldnt use his falsetto as much as he does - I got the feeling on X factor it was viewed as his 'thing' so they used it at every opportunity - for me its the tone of his voice which is appealing and the fact that it betrays his emotions so well - I far prefer the full bodied letting rip at the top end!! With regard to his songwriting abilities - really don't know on this one yet, there is undoubtably some talent there but it needs to be given the chance to be nurtured in the right environment so Matt can learn what needs to be done to change a good lyric or riff into the sound that he hears in his head if that makes sense. To write him off at this point as some of those MF poster are doing (grrr!) is quite frankly only an indication of their complete naivety about the whole song writing process- as Matt himself has said 'give me a f****ing chance!' They had to get the album out - it was delayed as it was - I really dont think he had the chance to do much more than he did with letters - (heres my conspiracy theory bit) - I really think he was forced to release RFYL as the lead single or at the very least didnt feel like he had any option - I think it was completely the wrong thing to do from Matts perspective and did so much damage feeding the journos (and MF posters)with the fodder they needed to continue the Xfactor flop line they had decided to follow. How they could fail to see Starlights lead single superiority over this is beyond me - if they were truly interested in promoting Matt as a singer-songwriter why would they NOT release this first??? - unless they were trying to maximise focus on some other act??? - I do wonder if this might be the reason for Will's split from Modest.
2)the mix of songs on letters was cheesy and generic - well yes it is a bit, but that doesn't detract from the fact that there are some cracking tunes in there - real growers which are for me only now starting to fulfill their potential when performed live - I really think they are now sounding more like the songs he thought he had written. I do wonder how many times he came back into the studio after thinking he'd laid down a cracking vocal only to find it sounding nothing like he intended after production? I remember listening to the preview tracks on itunes and being really excited - imagining how the track would build and the potential to go in all kinds of different directions only to be a bit disappointed in a couple of instances (BOABH - although i do love this -and PMU were cases in point for me - where did that twangy guitar line come from on PMU?? thank goodness it disappeared live). Having said that I think they had some tough decisions to make trying to keep the fans who only knew 'Xfactor Matt' but also wanting to hint at the artist he really is/ wants to be. Again I have my views about how far he was 'allowed' to go down this route and i'm so glad he has finally admitted that the whole thing was very 'frustrating' as it confirms to me that it is nowhere near as far as he wanted to go and TPTB had another focus other than maximising the potential talents of their winner (I still cannot get my head round the long term logic of this?? are they really going to make that much money out of 1D as opposed to a really successful TV programme which could last for years if it could really find and nurture true talent - maybe its easier having manufactured puppets! - have nothing against the boys BTW).
3)Boring image - now this one really makes me cross and sadly is a symptom of our internet / access all society. Why are we so focused on the image of what people pretend to be rather than who they really are??? And why infact should that matter if they produce wonderful music? Who makes these rules about how we should, look, sound, behave? and why are we so willing to follow??? 9 times out of 10 it involves some level of manipulation to get us to spend our hard earned cash simply to feel like we 'fit in' to the image we are all supposed to aspire to..............our press have so much to answer for and the sooner the law is changed to support the victims of misrepresentation the better -at the moment it seems that any rubbish can be printed and you just have to sit back and accept it or face huge legal bills trying to clear your name - so wrong...............sorry im off on one again ooopps and a bit of a mega post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJdj_gebxc

YT of WWC including thank you speech and once he starts singing whoever is filming starts focusing on the audience and we get a shot of Ali and then the Cardle family

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFzYl9PzEfQ

Another WWC just posting this one cos the guy's out of tune singing gave me so much joy

You have mail honey.

Great post wild honey and I agree with a lot of what you have said...it's difficult to know what discisions where made and by whom and what imput Matt had so we can only speculate ...however there does seem to be some odd choices made at times...can I ask anyone if they could post the article/interview where Matt said the album process was frustrating...someone mentioned it at Hammersmith and it has been refered to a number of times since but I seem to have missed it in my catchup.. thanks

Aw you can see Dom and his mum positively beaming

Great post wildhoney, I agree with you totally.

Lots of interesting discussion on here today! Great post Cardie - I'll try and put my own thoughts down about it later. Crabbie I totally agree with your post about some posters (and to be fair a very tiny minority) on the main forum.

Wildhoney - I agree with almost everything you've said - the only thing I can't see so much is RFYL having anything to do with other acts - I've always felt that was simply because of Gary Barlow being the new x factor judge and someone somewhere thought that was a good spin for the whole reincarnation of the x-factor thing - and I don't think much thought was given to the effect it would have on the way Matt was perceived, or anything really - bar that first show. Pure speculation of couse!

Thanks OOTP I know its so hard to know who has what level of decision making, and to be fair some of those odd decisions could of been Matts... we really don't know (oops ...sorry Matt ...that twangy guitar may of been your favourite bit ) - I just feel that what we know of Matts musical past and his aspirations - it seems more reasonable to assume he didnt have as much control over things he would of liked - having said that i also wonder whether his lack of belief in his own abilities, which Simon often referred to, made him more willing to listen to the views of others rather than his own instincts......i really don't know.......but fun to speculate.........Ali where are you when we need some hints!!!!

haha ....... you've set a very high standard Crabbie


Add me to the list of those who found the homophobic slant to a number of posts in the GT thread very disappointing, it's great to see Matt not being affraid to embrace all his fans regardless of demographic ... as it should be

Hi Moomin - no I think your right about the reasons for RFYL being used ie to promote GB's role in Xfactor - i didnt mean to suggest that RFYL was used to benefit other acts in some way -what I was trying to hint at was if Starlight had been released as the lead single with all the media attention it would of received as his first single (as RFYL did) i really don't think the press response would of been as negative as it was - in fact I think there would of been a general 'oh he's quite a good songwriter' attitude and as a result less of a 'willingness' to accept the 3rd and 4th placed efforts which had clearly been written for them in the usual x factor style - i think the pressure is on for x factor to prove they can produce 'credible acts' but they had to do it fast - I really think it is all about the money and what they perceive as the quickest way to make a shedload of money fast - Matt was always going to be a slow burn and I really do think simon et al think he will make it anyway - hence his support with the part columbia signing etc. I just really think that if Matt had had a really successful self penned lead single it would of been detrimental to the success of how cher and 1D were received - does any of that make sense? Its the only way i can explain why Starlight was not released as the first single and then not promoted as the second single and released properly - just didnt make any sense to me at all... maybe in thinking too much????
Last edited by wildhoney : 04-04-2012 at 17:23

Hi folks,

A number of posts have been removed from this thread. Appreciation threads aren't for the discussion of other forum members/threads in a negative manner.

Just to add in that I actually believe that the ptb thought RFYL would be far more successful than it was. I base this on the fact that every time I go in a reasonably sized music store, there are still several copies in stock. What makes me cross is that it appears to have used up Matt's quota of physical releases! No CD for Starlight for me was a big mistake just before Xmas - people are LOOKING to buy things then. A couple of quid for a stocking filler is no shakes for a song that is very popular. Whatever bits of negativity I've seen on twitter about RFYL or Amazing, Starlight seems to get plenty of praise. Oh the pain!!!
Anyway I guess as long as lessons are learned for next time, that's all that matters. At the end of the day, Letters is still a platinum album.

As long as the same rules are applied to MF posters who, as I am sure you are very aware, continually talk about this AT in a derogatory way. I see plenty of posts of this manner that are left by Forum Support.

I agree guys n kindly request that the playing field is level

Phew!! Wipes forehead finally made it here.

Evening everyone.

I agree that would be more to the point Pie. However I very rarely post on the MF; I have little enough time to come on here so therefore MF holds no pull for me.

Of course the same rules apply. Please 'Alert' any posts that you want us to look into in the future.

I agree I did think the song utilised was evidencing, seemingly, spin; it must have been difficult for him and he must have needed to be connected to the show more deeply

I have just gone back and reported a post on another thread that directly refers to MAT in a derogatory way FOR THE SECOND TIME. I am aware that at least one other ALSO reported this post. Please treat this alert fairly.

LOL ~Crabbie like the colour can we take turns.

I too don't find Matt a boring performer.Ok he does not have all the autotunes, flashing lights and whatever on the stage to distract the audience from his voice and if not having all of that makes him seem boring I find it sad. Its the voice I go to listen to not the dancers or flashing lights.