[lil_miss_blonde]

Originally Posted by claire2281

Spoiler

If Arthur uses magic to talk to his father that will be....iffy. I mean, having magic banned yet using it secretly for his own purposes? Sounds a lot like something Uther would do!

It does and thats exactly what he does.

Originally Posted by Cadiva

Exactly, I'm expecting it to be more of

Spoiler

a "dream sequence" type appearance where Arthur is able to talk to Uther freely about his fears as he knows his father is dead.

The other alternative, of course, is

Spoiler

that Morgana in her old woman disguise calls Uther back, not as a Lancelot type shade but more as Morgause did with Igraine so that Arthur could talk to her.

^^^ Im afraid its exactly what Claire has said.

Spoiler

Morgana is far to busy trying to kill them to help Arthur talk to his dead father

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by claire2281

Spoiler

If Arthur uses magic to talk to his father that will be....iffy. I mean, having magic banned yet using it secretly for his own purposes? Sounds a lot like something Uther would do!

I could picture either doing it in a "moment of weakness." While Arthur claimed he didn't have use for magic since S01, that didn't stop him from seeking out Morgause to fulfill his promise and to learn more about his mother. And, it was he who admonished Merlin that not all who practice magic are evil.

Spoiler

So, I can picture Arthur seeking the help of Uther, Uther appearing and Arthur not questioning it. Merlin sensing Uther's presence and the two having a talk. And, in the end, Uther thanking Merlin for the aid he's given Arthur all these years and extracting from Merlin a promise that he will stand by him unto death. I can also picture Uther intimating that all along, there was little that occured inthe kingdowm without his knowledge including Merlin's secret.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

It does and thats exactly what he does.

^^^ Im afraid its exactly what Claire has said.

Spoiler

Morgana is far to busy trying to kill them to help Arthur talk to his dead father

No I didn't mean she was being "helpful", more along the lines of wanting to inflict more pain

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

It does and thats exactly what he does....

^^^ Im afraid its exactly what Claire has said.

Spoiler

Morgana is far to busy trying to kill them to help Arthur talk to his dead father

Thanks for the info, lil miss B.

This is all speculation but I'll spoiler box it...

Spoiler

For S05, I could picture an emissary from King Mark or some other King going to Camelot, renewing diplomatic ties with Arthur but telling him that Uther would be displeased with some of the decisions made by the young king. Then, later in the series, for whatever reason, an anxiety ridden Arthur wonders what his father would do given a certain situation. There's but one way to find out. And, Arthur turns to those with magic.

So, Arthur summoning Uther with the assistance of someone magical (but not Merlin) makes the likely candidates: the unknown characters played by Glover and Cunningham, or Mordred.

My guess: the Glover character because Mordred doing that is much too obvious.

Now, that brings the question: what could be so traumatic a discovery to Arthur that he'd need to ask Uther for advice to the extent that Arthur would violate his own laws and beliefs about magic?

The likely suspects for Arthur to do that:

1) his birth? Possible but not for this series because it was explored in prior seasons and Arthur didn't seem to question his birth or the circumstances about it during S04 when Agravaine argued that Gaius was lying and a traitor.

2) the enchanted bracelet? Would be very likely because of his love for his Queen but not likely in this S05 because the producers ruled that out.

3) the Morgana problem? Arthur might but somehow I can't picture her doing anymore to him that hasn't been done. At this point, he needs to encounter something to really shake his world to the core and make him question his own beliefs.

4) the Merlin problem? That's my guess for this Series. Which would mean that Arthur, finally using the intelligence he's displayed in prior episodes, discovers Merlin's secret unbeknownst to him. Arthur is now torn by what he must do. Then, in desperation, Arthur turns to magic culminating in the return of Uther--- who at first is the Uther of old, but it turns out that the old Uther wasn't quite what we thought him to be.

It would be a great story line for the series. And, I can't wait to see what the writers come up with.

[MikeAP001]

I just read this:

"BBC One will launch its new Original British Drama campaign to the nation throughout this period. Over the next 17 days audiences will get a sneak preview of the brand new original British drama coming up on the channel. From Hunted, Good Cop and The Secret of Crickley Hall to Accused, Shetland and Ripper Street. Plus, Doctor Who, Merlin, The Paradise and EastEnders – keep switched on at approximately 8pm each night to see more."

On here:

http://cultfix.co.uk/merlin-series-5...week-18220.htm

So, BBC will be releasing trailers for Merlin S05 starting August 3, 2012 during the Olympics.

[lloydsimco]

Just seen the new trailer on bbc1

[switzerland]

Originally Posted by lloydsimco

Just seen the new trailer on bbc1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5QTl...ature=youtu.be

[GBali]

Originally Posted by lloydsimco

Just seen the new trailer on bbc1

A pleasant surprise. I've heard it aired at least three times during the day.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by GBali

A pleasant surprise. I've heard it aired at least three times during the day.

I wonder if this is part of the Trailer bundle that started on July 28, 2012 for BBC One shows or whether there will be a more detailed Merlin trailer shown on August 3 at 8 pm GMT as advertised.

Spoiler

Based on that trailer, it seems there will be snowy scenes in Merlin, the round table will arrive, Elyan's life is imperiled, Gwen looks worried, Morgana's allied with Saxons(?) and preparing to attack, the Dorchaid or some other Hag might be back, and Arthur will try to rescue his men while Merlin's sworn to protect Arthur or die at his side.

Based on this trailer, the MERLIN people are using a higher quality production kit for their 35 mm film so it's likely that they've got a higher budget.

Does anyone know if the London bookies are taking bets on whether there'll be a S06 or not? I'd be curious about the odds.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Just saw the trailer in a better version and... my disappointment has dropped even more.

Spoiler

Everyone sitting at the Round Table but Merlin. He is standing on the side, ever the serving boy. That picture is so utterly wrong, it's infuriating. Peasant knights are sitting comfortably, a former *maid* is sitting comfortably and the SINGLE PERSON who made all that possible is STILL standing outside the circle. *That* is the fairness and equality of this King Arthur? Really?

I'm Team!Mordred. I never expected to say this, I was always "this Arthur is my favourite, I don't want him to die", but the writing has made me dislike him, dislike this Camelot. Just kill him and end the show.

It'll take a miracle to believe in this show again and I don't believe in miracles, not with those PTB/writers.

Thank you, dear forum, for welcoming me. I think I'd better humbly go now.

Please stay.

I admit. I felt the same way as you as did a number of other fans who wanted Merlin's character to be developed but I've got a feeling that things will change mostly because of those fans who wanted things to change.

And I'm convinced, TPTB/BTPTB (the Powers that Be and those Beyond the Powers that Be) want to make this show a success and are listening to the fan's input... though not admitting so. Here's a vid I posted before but I missed a few things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRiN2bQA4W4

Spoiler

On another board, "Scopet" pointed out:

"Here's an intervie with Johnny Capps. Around 8:00 he talks about a Merlin love interest twist..."

Also, around 5:00, he's talking about MERLIN's Journey (as a Hero). And, in other interviews with Katie McGrath, who describes Morgana as "a misunderstood hero" and others, there's the likely event of redemption story lines for her and Uther, too. So, If that's the case, we'll be seeing a more adult Merlin in S05 whose character will be developed as he continues his journey (it's TPTB talking--- JC/JM--- but I admit it sounds like the Hero Archetype which none of them ever spoke of before, much less the interviewers, and I'm wondering where they got that idea.)

Which means that in one future episode such as S05E13, there could be a "wow moment". And, the bits are in place for that to happen in S05 and that's what's being hinted at.

Here's one "wow moment" the writers could easily do:

Couldn't you imagine a scene where minstrels are playing in the streets in preparation for a grand celebration held by the King and Queen for an honored guest, the KORT griping about the trouble such things brings and Merlin, evidently depressed, but trying not to show it and "doing good for the sake of doing good."?

Gwaine and the rest of the KORT shoring up Merlin's confidence by repeating what Lancelot said that Merlin's the bravest of them all and Arthur should make him a knight and even Sir Leon offering to speak to Arthur. The knights are called to the Round Table. While everyone takes their place, Merlin stands to the side.

To Arthur's right is an empty chair. Everyone there expects that a great wizard or other wise old man will take the seat. According to custom (Roman), Merlin drops a bit of toast in everyone's drink. When all is served, King Arthur raises a chalice and presents the bit of toast to the honored guest and newest member of the Round Table, the advisor to the King: MERLIN. Everyone is at first surprised. Arthur gives a grand speech and Gwen helps Merlin take his rightful place by Arthur's side.

In the background, Morgana or some other enemy of Camelot seethes with rage...

And, we have the opening for more stories.

With the things being hinted at, there are very good story lines that can be used to reach that "wow" moment every one tries to reach, though Alice Troughton called it, a "rahhhrrr" moment, it's probably the same. So, it would be worth tuning in, and sticking it out, to see if that "twist and turn" occurs.

[lp229]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Spoiler

So, Arthur summoning Uther with the assistance of someone magical (but not Merlin) makes the likely candidates: the unknown characters played by Glover and Cunningham, or Mordred.

My guess: the Glover character because Mordred doing that is much too obvious.

Spoiler

Cunningham, according to McGrath, is playing a 'Magical freedom fighter'; I doubt that a character of this type would co-operate with Arthur, given his known anti-magic stance. Also, he is supposed to be in the first episode of the series, I think there will be too much going on and insufficient screen time to build up Arthur's dilemma.

As for Mordred, unless Arthur's attitude towards magic has changed drastically in the three year gap (which is unlikely), I don't think Mordred would dare use magic within the Kingdom. Arthur knows that Mordred is of the druid people and so will know that he has magic but I think the reason the king is able to accept him as a knight is because Mordred has given false pretenses that he has abandoned his old ways, in a similar way Gauis did for Uther. This way Arthur can avoid breaking the laws of his land.

Glover is a possibility, after all, we do not know anything of the character he is going to play.

An alternative is the three witches that were reported on location by Switzerland. Supposedly, Arthur was consulting these witches for something, this is my likely candidate.

Spoiler

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Now, that brings the question: what could be so traumatic a discovery to Arthur that he'd need to ask Uther for advice to the extent that Arthur would violate his own laws and beliefs about magic?

the Merlin problem? That's my guess for this Series. Which would mean that Arthur, finally using the intelligence he's displayed in prior episodes, discovers Merlin's secret unbeknownst to him. Arthur is now torn by what he must do. Then, in desperation, Arthur turns to magic culminating in the return of Uther--- who at first is the Uther of old, but it turns out that the old Uther wasn't quite what we thought him to be.

Spoiler

Unless they're teasing us (which maybe true), Merlin's magic reveal has not been written yet: we do not know whether it is coming in the second half of Series 5. So, taking that the actors are only aware of what is happening half way through, Uther's temporary return will happen before Arthur is aware of Merlin's magic: in the first half. Its not that I don't like the idea, it would be a fantastic direction to go but the evidence available at the moment doesn't quite go in favor of it.

My own view is that the dilemma will be over tolerating magic in the kingdom. Morgan has hinted that one of the landmarks in Series 5 will be the adjustment of the laws against magic. From time to time, Arthur has had doubts of his father's view. However, the only time he has felt actually sympathetic towards the people of a magical kind is in 'Sins of a Father', when he, for a short while, believes in the truth of the circumstances of his birth. So burdened on whether it is right to alter the laws against magic, Arthur wants to hear the truth from his own father. This would then place Arthur's beliefs in his former doubts that his father's crusade was a product of his own bitterness. Also, that those who have used magic in the past against the kingdom, have done so as a form of vindication.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by lp229

Spoiler

Cunningham, according to McGrath, is playing a 'Magical freedom fighter'; I doubt that a character of this type would co-operate with Arthur, given his known anti-magic stance. Also, he is supposed to be in the first episode of the series, I think there will be too much going on and insufficient screen time to build up Arthur's dilemma.

As for Mordred, unless Arthur's attitude towards magic has changed drastically in the three year gap (which is unlikely), I don't think Mordred would dare use magic within the Kingdom. Arthur knows that Mordred is of the druid people and so will know that he has magic but I think the reason the king is able to accept him as a knight is because Mordred has given false pretenses that he has abandoned his old ways, in a similar way Gauis did for Uther. This way Arthur can avoid breaking the laws of his land.

Glover is a possibility, after all, we do not know anything of the character he is going to play.

An alternative is the three witches that were reported on location by Switzerland. Supposedly, Arthur was consulting these witches for something, this is my likely candidate.

Another possibility:

Spoiler

The Dorchaid-like creature "hag" in the trailer who might or might not be one of the three witches.

And, Mordred could be the one to lead Arthur to her against the advice of Merlin. That would be a good story line. I can picture Arthur becoming upset and berating Merlin much as he'd done in past episodes and making Merlin more isolated from the knights. But problems ensue and Merlin has to bail them out again but only Mordred knows that it was due to Merlin and Mordred gets the credit for saving Arthur and the KORT.

Originally Posted by lp229

[

Spoiler

Unless they're teasing us (which maybe true), Merlin's magic reveal has not been written yet: we do not know whether it is coming in the second half of Series 5. So, taking that the actors are only aware of what is happening half way through, Uther's temporary return will happen before Arthur is aware of Merlin's magic: in the first half. Its not that I don't like the idea, it would be a fantastic direction to go but the evidence available at the moment doesn't quite go in favor of it.

My own view is that the dilemma will be over tolerating magic in the kingdom. Morgan has hinted that one of the landmarks in Series 5 will be the adjustment of the laws against magic. From time to time, Arthur has had doubts of his father's view. However, the only time he has felt actually sympathetic towards the people of a magical kind is in 'Sins of a Father', when he, for a short while, believes in the truth of the circumstances of his birth. So burdened on whether it is right to alter the laws against magic, Arthur wants to hear the truth from his own father. This would then place Arthur's beliefs in his former doubts that his father's crusade was a product of his own bitterness. Also, that those who have used magic in the past against the kingdom, have done so as a form of vindication.

Interesting and valid points all of which could happen. Which is what would make S05 worth watching.

There is a flaw in your idea: Money.

I can't be certain how it's done over there but to save money producers, directors, what have you often do not shoot scenes of episodes in order. Instead, they shoot scenes for multiple episodes and cut and paste those into the episode for broadcast later. For instance, a scene for episode 3 can be shot along with a number of scenes for episode 1 or a scene for episode 6 can be shot with 4 and so on.

It's a ploy to assure the availability of the actor, directors, etc. And to save money. It was a style of production pioneered by a director of B films named Roger Corman...

Spoiler

So, there could be one or more scenes with Uther's return but the episode won't be aired until much later or those scenes won't show up until later episodes.

The other would be that since the final episodes aren't written, yet then certain characters and events could still be in the works. Characters who were written off could be coming back depending on availability (and money) for later episodes because the writers could still be influenced.

For instance if, Bradley James and/or Colin Morgan asked the writers to let Arthur know about Merlin's secret, the writers would probably try to accommodate them. Why they haven't yet, it's beyond me but it would make for an interesting series of stories for Arthur to discover Merlin's secret, reassess his notions about him, and come to appreciate Merlin. Besides, it would show that Arthur isn't so dim-witted as Tristan noted.

[GBali]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

For instance if, Bradley James and/or Colin Morgan asked the writers to let Arthur know about Merlin's secret, the writers would probably try to accommodate them. Why they haven't yet, it's beyond me

They would never do that. Writing and storylining is not the job of the actors, and I'm sure they know that.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by GBali

They would never do that. Writing and storylining is not the job of the actors, and I'm sure they know that.

Quite.

Originally Posted by lp229

Spoiler

Cunningham, according to McGrath, is playing a 'Magical freedom fighter'; I doubt that a character of this type would co-operate with Arthur, given his known anti-magic stance. Also, he is supposed to be in the first episode of the series, I think there will be too much going on and insufficient screen time to build up Arthur's dilemma.

Unfortunately, because he's an amazing actor,

Spoiler

Liam Cunningham's character dies in the opening two parter.

Originally Posted by lp229

Spoiler

My own view is that the dilemma will be over tolerating magic in the kingdom. Morgan has hinted that one of the landmarks in Series 5 will be the adjustment of the laws against magic. From time to time, Arthur has had doubts of his father's view. However, the only time he has felt actually sympathetic towards the people of a magical kind is in 'Sins of a Father', when he, for a short while, believes in the truth of the circumstances of his birth.
So burdened on whether it is right to alter the laws against magic, Arthur wants to hear the truth from his own father. This would then place Arthur's beliefs in his former doubts that his father's crusade was a product of his own bitterness. Also, that those who have used magic in the past against the kingdom, have done so as a form of vindication.

That would make more sense to me as well.

[Lowri]

Unfortunately I won't see the trailer live for the next couple of weeks (For some reason some idiot has filled the channel with sport ) but it's great to actually see it properly. I wonder if so many videos slipped through the comic con net they thought there was nothing to lose!

If these "olympics" will attract larger audiences to BBC1 (and hence the Merlin trailer) then that can only be a good thing

[Arwyn]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Please stay.

I admit. I felt the same way as you as did a number of other fans who wanted Merlin's character to be developed but I've got a feeling that things will change mostly because of those fans who wanted things to change.

..........

With the things being hinted at, there are very good story lines that can be used to reach that "wow" moment every one tries to reach, though Alice Troughton called it, a "rahhhrrr" moment, it's probably the same. So, it would be worth tuning in, and sticking it out, to see if that "twist and turn" occurs.

There is nothing hinted at that is not recycled from series 1 through 4. Again a threat, again Merlin keeping in the dark, again a trap, a traitor, even the "die for you" line has been used to death by now. The trailer of series 5 is so underwhelming, so general and lukewarm, that I'm truly surprised that fans love it so much. And once more, some "grand" reason will be used to make Merlin hide his magic again, simply because that's how TPTB want it to be. And by the way, why is the show called "Merlin" still, when the trailer makes it so obvious that it's now all about Arthur, Gwen and Camelot? Merlin himself is pushed far in the background.

I've talked with some friends and we're all giving series 5 three to four episodes. If by 5x04 there is no freshness but the same re-used themes, we're giving up "Merlin" altogether. We are giving up the suspense, the thrill, and taking it as just a show to remember to watch from time to time if we happen to feel like it. We like our intelligence and sense of logic being respected, not to mention our sense of honour, so a Merlin being treated like second rate rag-doll, (he's not sitting in the Round Table!?!?!?) when he should be acknowledged and respected, is something we will simply choose not to watch.

Just my humble opinion. I will eat all my hats if I'm wrong and TPTB save surprises, but.... ah no.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by GBali

They would never do that. Writing and storylining is not the job of the actors, and I'm sure they know that.

Though there might be rules and such regarding jobs and duties, in general, the people who know a character best are the creator (usually the writers, directors, etc.) and the actors. Sometime during the dry run or read through pre-filming, the actors didn’t make suggestion such as “Arthur wouldn’t do it like that… Gwen, would say this…” And, it would be surprising to me, if by now, actors like James or Morgan hadn’t suggested things during the filming of some scenes little nuances to show depth and texture to the character.

After all, the director can’t be expected to do all that all the time and I doubt very few now-a-days would go to that sort of detail. Though there are exceptions. For instance, there’s an absolutely brilliant moment during Freya’s funeral when Merlin raises his arm, looks sad, sighs, then raises his arm before setting the boat afire. The director really did an outstanding job with that in showing the character’s emotions. There’s an equally near-brilliant moment during the Gaius interrogation with Arthur fiddling with the rings on his fingers (they look like the same ones as Agravaine wore? If so, then so much the better.) to show Arthur’s shame at the events. Now, the actors should have contributed to those scenes or maybe even suggested that those gestures be included.

That way, the writers and the rest of the production could see things from a fresh perspective. And, you can avoid these criticisms:

Originally Posted by Arwyn

There is nothing hinted at that is not recycled from series 1 through 4. Again a threat, again Merlin keeping in the dark, again a trap, a traitor, even the "die for you" line has been used to death by now. The trailer of series 5 is so underwhelming, so general and lukewarm, that I'm truly surprised that fans love it so much. And once more, some "grand" reason will be used to make Merlin hide his magic again, simply because that's how TPTB want it to be. And by the way, why is the show called "Merlin" still, when the trailer makes it so obvious that it's now all about Arthur, Gwen and Camelot? Merlin himself is pushed far in the background.

All of which are valid. And, by infusing new ideas through input from the actors, it would avoid this:

Originally Posted by Arwyn

I've talked with some friends and we're all giving series 5 three to four episodes. If by 5x04 there is no freshness but the same re-used themes, we're giving up "Merlin" altogether. We are giving up the suspense, the thrill, and taking it as just a show to remember to watch from time to time if we happen to feel like it. We like our intelligence and sense of logic being respected, not to mention our sense of honour, so a Merlin being treated like second rate rag-doll, (he's not sitting in the Round Table!?!?!?) when he should be acknowledged and respected, is something we will simply choose not to watch.

I wouldn’t look for too much freshness by episode 4 but a nice adventure and story. And I would actually give it until episode 6 for Merlin to gain the respect he deserves among the knights and episode 10 for Arthur--- and that would only be a start.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Just my humble opinion. I will eat all my hats if I'm wrong and TPTB save surprises, but.... ah no.

I’d think twice about that. I had a similar discussion with someone on another board about S04 and he was wrong. Though, he didn’t really eat his words… even if he promised to...

[Arwyn]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

All of which are valid. And, by infusing new ideas through input from the actors, it would avoid this:

I wouldn’t look for too much freshness by episode 4 but a nice adventure and story. And I would actually give it until episode 6 for Merlin to gain the respect he deserves among the knights and episode 10 for Arthur--- and that would only be a start.

I’d think twice about that. I had a similar discussion with someone on another board about S04 and he was wrong. Though, he didn’t really eat his words… even if he promised to...

I don't believe that TPTB take input from the actors or directors. They seem not to take input from the fans either.

Series 4 was good up to 4x09, then all went downhill and the whole result ruined it all. So after 4 series, to wait yet almost all the fifth as well for Merlin to gain respect and Arthur to grow up, well, that is straining our patience to a ridiculous level. My sense of right is already screaming by the fact that after ten, TEN years, Merlin is still a servant, equality of the 3x13 Round Table conveniently forgotten. Arthur has knighted commoners, married a maid, but he still likes to keep Merlin emptying his chamberpot. In just what reasonable and fair universe would that happen??

I will apologize profusely if, by some miracle, TPTB have listened and freshened up their game. I just don't believe they have, because they are using exactly the same words they had back in series 4, "darker, mature, better, story arc" blah blah. They were just words though, they did not deliver. I'm very sorry to be the party-pooper here, but I've never been so utterly underwhelmed by a beloved series ever. I believed in "Merlin" and slowly it let me down. Not one word, not one spoiler that I have learned (and I've hunted them all) has given me a hint that the series has indeed improved, that it has acknowledged its mistakes. TPTB just don't put their money where their mouth is.

I dare anyone to share one spoiler, one word, that proves that the series has reasoned up. Please.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

I dare anyone to share one spoiler, one word, that proves that the series has reasoned up. Please.

Most of us are unable to do that as we don't agree with your basic premise of the show unfortunately. I think the episode threads on DS and the general series discussion threads show that the vast majority of posters here think Merlin has continued to improve year on year since the beginning.

[Arwyn]

Originally Posted by Cadiva

Most of us are unable to do that as we don't agree with your basic premise of the show unfortunately. I think the episode threads on DS and the general series discussion threads show that the vast majority of posters here think Merlin has continued to improve year on year since the beginning.

With all due respect, that is not answering the question I set.

The show has improved on production values yes, visually it has become beautiful indeed. And the acting is phenomenal. However, although in the beginning it was a character-based show, now it mostly under-develops or sacrifices characters for the plot of the week. And characters are the heart of the show, not the plot.

Series 4 had the most examples of that plot-base. Did we learn Agravaine's motives, no. Was any reason not to tell Arthur that Merlin was enchanted in 4x06, no. Arthur would condemn his loyal physician like that in 4x07, yes. And I won't even start with 4x09 and 4x12/13, how utterly out of character, unreasonable and plot-serving they were. The only episode that I will give credit to is 4x03, one of the best hours of television ever.

But I digress, this is a series 5 thread.

Series 5. How could you possibly call the still servant Merlin an improvement? After ten years of royal service, he's still standing on the side. How is the re-used idea of the traitor-in-the-midst an improvement, been there done that with Morgana and Agravaine. Is that yet again a Mandrake Root in the series 5 trailer? How many times have we heard Merlin telling Arthur that he's protecting him or dying for him? It has really gotten old by now.

MikeAP001 said:

I wouldn’t look for too much freshness by episode 4 but a nice adventure and story. And I would actually give it until episode 6 for Merlin to gain the respect he deserves among the knights and episode 10 for Arthur--- and that would only be a start.

So, we really expect the same-all-same-all all the way to episode 10 and that is an improvement for the fifth series of a show?

Maybe I'm expecting too much of a family drama. Maybe I should not demand for TPTB to change their "keep the magic secret" motto, it's their right to write the show as they wish. But since I've loved "Merlin" so much, I think it's only fair to express my point of view, to say why that love has faded and why a minority of fans have lost faith.

I repeat, if TPTB are keeping aces in their sleeves, I will come back and cry apologies all over. I see no signs of that though. The trailers of series 5 lack any originality or fresh thing to look forward to.

I'm sorry for my dark mood. See you by episode 5x04.

[lil_miss_blonde]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

I dare anyone to share one spoiler, one word, that proves that the series has reasoned up. Please.

Originally Posted by Cadiva

Most of us are unable to do that as we don't agree with your basic premise of the show unfortunately. I think the episode threads on DS and the general series discussion threads show that the vast majority of posters here think Merlin has continued to improve year on year since the beginning.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

With all due respect, that is not answering the question I set.

It actually is answering your question.. You wanted a spoiler or something that proves that the series has reasoned up, as you put it.
Cadiva was simply saying she can't do that because she does not share (as i dont) your view on how the series have been previously done. Therefore neither of us can fnd a spoiler for you, to prove to you, that the series has uped its game, as to us the spoilers weve all heard and read (and from what i've seen and heard) do prove that.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

With all due respect, that is not answering the question I set.

The show has improved on production values yes, visually it has become beautiful indeed. And the acting is phenomenal. However, although in the beginning it was a character-based show, now it mostly under-develops or sacrifices characters for the plot of the week. And characters are the heart of the show, not the plot.

Series 4 had the most examples of that plot-base. Did we learn Agravaine's motives, no. Was any reason not to tell Arthur that Merlin was enchanted in 4x06, no. Arthur would condemn his loyal physician like that in 4x07, yes. And I won't even start with 4x09 and 4x12/13, how utterly out of character, unreasonable and plot-serving they were. The only episode that I will give credit to is 4x03, one of the best hours of television ever.

But I digress, this is a series 5 thread.

Series 5. How could you possibly call the still servant Merlin an improvement? After ten years of royal service, he's still standing on the side. How is the re-used idea of the traitor-in-the-midst an improvement, been there done that with Morgana and Agravaine. Is that yet again a Mandrake Root in the series 5 trailer? How many times have we heard Merlin telling Arthur that he's protecting him or dying for him? It has really gotten old by now.

MikeAP001 said:


So, we really expect the same-all-same-all all the way to episode 10 and that is an improvement for the fifth series of a show?

Maybe I'm expecting too much of a family drama. Maybe I should not demand for TPTB to change their "keep the magic secret" motto, it's their right to write the show as they wish. But since I've loved "Merlin" so much, I think it's only fair to express my point of view, to say why that love has faded and why a minority of fans have lost faith.

I repeat, if TPTB are keeping aces in their sleeves, I will come back and cry apologies all over. I see no signs of that though. The trailers of series 5 lack any originality or fresh thing to look forward to.

I'm sorry for my dark mood. See you by episode 5x04.

But, as I said, the vast majority of people posting here don't agree with your viewpoint and certainly not for series four, which had not only some of the highest ratings but also constantly ended up on the DS episode polls with excellent or very good ratings. Most people here think series four was the best so far and certainly have no issues with the episodes you have identified. Episode Four with Lamia was the one which received the most criticism on DS.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

We like our intelligence and sense of logic being respected, not to mention our sense of honour, so a Merlin being treated like second rate rag-doll, (he's not sitting in the Round Table!?!?!?) when he should be acknowledged and respected, is something we will simply choose not to watch.

Then I would say this is your "problem", but not that of the writers or producers, who have constantly said they are not telling the story of Merlin the sorcerer sat at the Round Table and outwardly a powerful user of magic.

I think you are demanding too much for them to change their "keep the secret" tag, they've repeatedly said since series one that they don't see a big reveal as being important and they're not telling the story of Merlin the big and powerful sorcerer and advisor to King Arthur. Their Merlin is a servant and is written accordingly. They've never given any indication or suggestion he was going to be anything more than that. The fact that Gwen is now Queen and that Elyan was knighted doesn't automatically mean Merlin's going to be sat at the Round Table. They've had their situations changed, Merlin hasn't. He is still Arthur's body servant.

We have been told, in a spoiler here by Lil_miss who works on the show, that Mordred is not a traitor in the midst. That Arthur is aware of who he is and that he has told Arthur he owes him his life and she said he wasn't working in secret with Morgana. We have no idea how the producers are going to use Mordred yet in this interpretation. They have said he has a part to play in the end of the story but, for all we are aware, he could accidentally kill Arthur rather than deliberately plot to take over the throne and end his life at the Battle of Camlann.

We've been given hints of the Battle of Camlann, if Morgana's dream vision is meant to be that, and Emrys asking her if that's what she really wants. We've been told that Aithusa has a part to play in that so we're expecting some kind of twist on the red/white dragon mythology which comes with the Saxon invasion.

I'm not sure what you expect the show to be? You're highly unlikely to see Merlin openly out as a powerful magic user sat at the Round Table and dispensing magic left right and centre, that isn't the story this show is telling.

Obviously you are quite within your rights to be disappointed if the show isn't doing what you think it should or what you'd like it to do but perhaps a lot of that is down, as you say, to expectations which the producers have never said they intend fulfilling?

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

It actually is answering your question.. You wanted a spoiler or something that proves that the series has reasoned up, as you put it.
Cadiva was simply saying she can't do that because she does not share (as i dont) your view on how the series have been previously done. Therefore neither of us can fnd a spoiler for you, to prove to you, that the series has uped its game, as to us the spoilers weve all heard and read (and from what i've seen and heard) do prove that.

Exactly so Lil_miss.

[Lowri]

To Arwen,

You will definitely not be the only person in the world with those views, however, posting those comments in this forum is like going into the DW forum and calling Doctor Who rubbish, you're going to get a much better response outside (DW gets slagged off everytime it's discussed in UK TV!) Aside from all the spoilers that already litter this thread it's hard to know which one is going to press the right button for you.
I can understand your concerns about Merlin still being a servant. Although, perhaps we should study the entire series 5 relationship before we conclude that their relationship hasn't matured. On a practical level, Merlin is far more useful as a servant than a Lord/Nobel etc. Who else would have a good excuse for being found in Arthur's chambers (as he has needed to be many times), anyone else would get thrown in the dungeons (apart from Gwen of course). He can speak to the townspeople without them holding back anything they don't want royalty to hear and servants can move invisibly through the castle because they're not worth the attention. It also keeps him living in Gaius' quarters which gives them opportunties to work together in secret.

Some spoilers which excite me:

Spoiler

Uther's coming back for a very brief reunion with Arthur, both this and the presence of Mordred suggests magic is coming to the foreground again, we finally get to see Gwen as queen, Merlin is supposed to be more powerful

P.s. If you don't like the show nobody will have a problem with that but in my experience once you've told yourself something is going to be rubbish it often is, so try for an open mind. On the other hand, I often enter with really high expectations only to have them shattered so perhaps you're in for a nice surprise

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Series 4 had the most examples of that plot-base. Did we learn Agravaine's motives, no. Was any reason not to tell Arthur that Merlin was enchanted in 4x06, no. Arthur would condemn his loyal physician like that in 4x07, yes. And I won't even start with 4x09 and 4x12/13, how utterly out of character, unreasonable and plot-serving they were. The only episode that I will give credit to is 4x03, one of the best hours of television ever.

And, the elements in the story could have been addressed with a couple of lines by the writers and they might have been but left on the cutting room floor.

Actually, I agree with you on a lot of this but I don't see the purpose of telling Arthur that Merlin was enchanted. From Merlin or Gaius' perspective that would serve only to further the tension between Agravaine and Merlin even more. As it was at that time, had Arthur to choose between Aggy and Merlin, much to Arthur's distress at such a choice, he would likely choose Aggy. And, if Arthur had to choose between Morgana and Merlin until S04E13, he still would have chosen Morgana--- because that was entirely within his character: Arthur throughout the series always showed an undying loyalty to his family above all others; unless proven otherwise.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

But I digress, this is a series 5 thread.

Series 5. How could you possibly call the still servant Merlin an improvement? After ten years of royal service, he's still standing on the side. How is the re-used idea of the traitor-in-the-midst an improvement, been there done that with Morgana and Agravaine. Is that yet again a Mandrake Root in the series 5 trailer? How many times have we heard Merlin telling Arthur that he's protecting him or dying for him? It has really gotten old by now.

Merlin's still a servant because the show is about Merlin's Journey as Capps disclosed on the youtube video and other interviews. As we've witnessed that we've seen the slow... very slow... and often painfully slow... progression of Merlin as he becomes the great wizard of legend. And, one of the culminations/resolutions for S05 would be for Merlin to take his place as that great wizard... and have Arthur appreciate him for all Merlin's done over the years.

As for the traitor in the midst angle? Yes, it's been used a lot on this show. Yes, it's most likely Mordred but there might be an important difference to this well-worn idea: instead of the black knight fighting Arthur, the black knight's solely against Merlin. That would be a neat twist in there?

Perhaps Mordred's character at this point isn't an enemy or ally to Arthur or Morgana because his loyalty's divided there but Mordred sees the one dividing them and that by coincidence is the one who betrayed him as a child. His enemy is Merlin and that's who he tries to get out of the way. And, it would be interesting to see how such a story line plays out.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

So, we really expect the same-all-same-all all the way to episode 10 and that is an improvement for the fifth series of a show?

Not quite.

As I'd previously said, I'm a big fan of the Hero Archetype method of story telling and every story I'll see will have the same basic elements. I try not to mention it much anymore because so many others on other boards and elsewhere are. Thus, there will be a lot of similar episodes to those in prior seasons but the details and nuances should be different.

But, there will be one important difference: Arthur should play a less prominent role as the focus on the show becomes more and more about Merlin in S05. Oh, they should get back for more adventures as two sides of the same coin by the end of S05 and through to S06 and S07. But, that separation should occur.

The reason for sticking things out until episode 10? Strictly from a story telling perspective, some things just can't be neatly resolved in an episode without leaving the audience feeling "cheated" and would require a continuing story arc of two episodes or more for the resolution to occur. In other words, we'll see Merlin take his place as the great wizard.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Maybe I'm expecting too much of a family drama. Maybe I should not demand for TPTB to change their "keep the magic secret" motto, it's their right to write the show as they wish. But since I've loved "Merlin" so much, I think it's only fair to express my point of view, to say why that love has faded and why a minority of fans have lost faith.

Actually you should!

There are basic elements of good story telling that should be followed and you've pointed to some of them including the most important: always develop the central character(s) especially the main one; otherwise, the audience feels something amiss. And, you can develop the main character either directly (which I'd like to see in S05 and the promise is there by the producers) or indirectly (which has been tried though not as well-executed as it should.)

For instance, if the rings Arthur's twiddling are Igraine's then we have the answer as to Arthur's motivation for allowing Aggy to grill Gaius. And, with a couple lines of dialog or the look or glance from Aggy we'd know why he dislikes Arthur--- much as we saw in Aggy's disdain for Merlin with but a glance later in that episode.

Those character nuances shouldn't be borne on the shoulders of the writers or directors alone but upon the actors and if they aren't then hopefully in S05 the others will pick up the slack. Though, I'd hope that an actor like Nathaniel Parker during the pants incident in Aithusa cast his look of disdain at Arthur and Merlin without such direction because at once we knew that Aggy didn't think Arthur was up to the job.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

I repeat, if TPTB are keeping aces in their sleeves, I will come back and cry apologies all over. I see no signs of that though. The trailers of series 5 lack any originality or fresh thing to look forward to.

I'm sorry for my dark mood. See you by episode 5x04.

You shouldn't be.

But, I listen and read spoilers and see in them the writers are addressing the concerns of the fans, many of whom voiced the same concerns you do. There's the promise at least that these concerns will be addressed. Now, we'll look to S05 and see if they live up to it or at least try.

[ivyteainn]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

There is nothing hinted at that is not recycled from series 1 through 4. Again a threat, again Merlin keeping in the dark, again a trap, a traitor, even the "die for you" line has been used to death by now. The trailer of series 5 is so underwhelming, so general and lukewarm, that I'm truly surprised that fans love it so much. And once more, some "grand" reason will be used to make Merlin hide his magic again, simply because that's how TPTB want it to be. And by the way, why is the show called "Merlin" still, when the trailer makes it so obvious that it's now all about Arthur, Gwen and Camelot? Merlin himself is pushed far in the background.

I've talked with some friends and we're all giving series 5 three to four episodes. If by 5x04 there is no freshness but the same re-used themes, we're giving up "Merlin" altogether. We are giving up the suspense, the thrill, and taking it as just a show to remember to watch from time to time if we happen to feel like it. We like our intelligence and sense of logic being respected, not to mention our sense of honour, so a Merlin being treated like second rate rag-doll, (he's not sitting in the Round Table!?!?!?) when he should be acknowledged and respected, is something we will simply choose not to watch.

Just my humble opinion. I will eat all my hats if I'm wrong and TPTB save surprises, but.... ah no.

I agree that trailer was disappointing. As far as I could tell, it could been from either Series 3 or 4. I hope the writers don't rehash the same story with Modred taking the place of Agravaine. A traitor in Camelot, Arthur saying that he will retake his kingdom, Merlin still in the closet...sounds familiar. So I will hope for the best when the season opens.