[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by Bio Max

As long as Arthur finds out about the magic 'secret' and we get a few stories about that then I don't care what else happens this series (especially as it may be the last one). I want to see how their friendship develops from that, but also it means we get some kick ass episodes due to Merlin being able to truly show his powers... I'm sick of how long they are dragging it out.... move on please...!

Love it, so can't wait for the return...autumn a long way off though!

Merlin seems to be following the Heroic Archetype of story telling. And, so there should be plenty of stories which depict what you wanted. In fact, Merlin’s powers should have grown far more than they were in S04. I’ll spoiler this even if there shouldn’t be any spoilers:

Spoiler

In general, the story centers around Merlin and each episode follows the following stages which could very well be the summary for each of the seasons/series. These are the Hero’s Journey for Merlin and Arthur. Similar arcs exist for Gwen and Morgana.

In fact Morgana’s well on her way to the Heroine’s Journey. All she needs to do is take one of two paths after getting a second chance at life: 1) see the error of her ways and aid Merlin and Arthur in forming Albion or 2) become more committed to the destruction of Arthur, Merlin, Camelot, and its allies because her re-birth showed that she was destined to bring back the old religion as the Dorchaid said and thus, she creates her own alliances with forces represented by the White Dragon. All we need to do is wait and see which path Morgana takes.

MERLIN'S JOURNEY:

Stage 1: Departure: The hero is called to adventure, although he is reluctant to accept. (Season 1)
Stage 2: Initiation: The hero crosses a threshold into a new, more dangerous world, gaining a more mature perspective. (Season 2)
Stage 3: The Road of Trials: The hero is given supernatural aid, endures tests of strength, resourcefulness, and endurance. (Season 3)
Stage 4: The Innermost Cave: The hero faces a great trial. It is a period of undoing, and change. Because of this trial, the hero is reborn in some way: physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Through this experience, the hero changes internally. (Season 4: Sure, Merlin’s growth is stunted as a Wizard and Socially but there were these events--- the murder of Agravaine, attempted murder of Morgana, the birth of Aithusa, the Marriage of Arthur and Gwen, the coronation of Arthur and Gwen. These should have provided some growth to him.)
Stage 5: Return and Reintegration with Society: The hero uses his new wisdom/powers/ability to restore the land of Albion unifying the five kingdoms and allowing tolerance for those with magic (Season 5--- which is where this show should be headed? We can expect some sort of alliance among the five kingdoms much as Uther’s gathering in SWEET DREAMS and among those with Magic where Merlin meets and forms alliances with other magical beings and creatures while battling others for the purpose of having Albion created. )

ARTHUR'S JOURNEY as King:
Stage 1: Departure: The hero is called to adventure, although he is reluctant to accept. (Season 3 Eps 12 and 13, S04E03)
Stage 2: Initiation: The hero crosses a threshold into a new, more dangerous world, gaining a more mature perspective. (Season 3 Ep 13 and S04E01, 02 and 03)
Stage 3: The Road of Trials: The hero is given supernatural aid, endures tests of strength, resourcefulness, and endurance. (Season 4)
Stage 4: The Innermost Cave: The hero faces a great trial. It is a period of undoing, and change. Because of this trial, the hero is reborn in some way: physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Through this experience, the hero changes internally. (Season 4 Eps 3 and 13, Arthur realizes that a king requires more than being a good warrior… he must show wisdom, diplomacy, and justice. Season 5?)
Stage 5: Return and Reintegration with Society: The hero uses his new wisdom to restore the land of Albion (Season 5?--- a unification of the kingdoms, through alliances, against a common foe)

The drawback with this is that you’ll see that S04E13 was lacking because it failed to adequately allow the viewers to continue a suspension of disbelief. Bruta’s sword story had it not been phony would have foreshadowed the unification of the united kingdom of Albion and solidified the credibility of Arthur as the first among equals in the five kingdoms thus reintroducing the idea behind a Round Table. That element’s missing unless the writers do something like providing a back story to the “real” Bruta’s sword which could be a few lines of dialog from Gaius or Geoffrey. This would allow the probability that that another enchanted sword exists in the realm like Crocea Mors (the sword of Julius Caesar) or the Christ-blade (the sword of Lancelot). A story line tying all of this together would be that this enchanted sword falls into the hands of Mordred or a Saxon hero like Beowulf or an Irish hero like Cuchulain and this knight defeats all others in battle and only Arthur with his enchanted sword stands a chance in battle.

[lil_miss_blonde]

Originally Posted by Cadiva

I think you may end up being disappointed. As I've said before, they've said right from the very start that this isn't a story about Merlin the all powerful warlock that everyone knows about from the legends, it's about the boy/man before he reached that point. If we ever get a magic reveal I don't see it happening until towards the very end of this show's lifetime. It would be a total change in dynamic for the show to have an openly powerful Merlin working in Arthur's court and I'm not sure how that would work in terms of - lets have Merlin just blow up the latest threat to Camelot - instead of the various different types of episode and story line we have at the moment. An openly powerful Merlin makes the whole premise of the show utterly different imho.



Yeah, but it doesn't make sense. The dragons represent the invaders versus the natural population rather than simply being two opposing forces, if you see what I mean. I guess if Morgana offers her help to the Saxons then it would fit. We'll have to see where they go in the two parter.
I see they've also now confirmed

Spoiler

Liam Cunningham for Merlin, along with returning Lindsey Duncan as Queen Annis and the lovely Janet Montgomery is also back as Princess Mithian so that's got to be to do with the "Arthur uniting the kingdoms into a single realm of Albion" storyline.

Spoiler

Head.. Nail.. Hit

[MikeAP001]

Any word about the other kingdoms joining Merlin like

Spoiler

Queen Annis and Princess Mithian http://www.digitalspy.com/british-tv...ries-five.html.

I'd like to see Gwaine involved in storylines with Annis and Mithian. That way, Gwaine can settle his issues regarding his parents and the royals of Caerleon.

And, I'd like to see how he interacts with Princess Mithian. They have a compatible personality--- from a developmental perspective, they're, emotionally, the healthiest characters in the entire show. Can you imagine a confrontation between those two? It would be wild!

[switzerland]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Spoiler

Head.. Nail.. Hit

Does that mean we'll see King Lot?

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by switzerland

Does that mean we'll see King Lot?

I think we'd see him and the kings of the other kingdoms or their emissaries

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by switzerland

Does that mean we'll see King Lot?

I think LMB was confirming the

Spoiler

Saxon storyline rather than the unifying the kingdoms

one.

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Spoiler

Head.. Nail.. Hit

Heh, that was the only logical place they could take it if they were using the dragon mythology. Still, it will be interesting to see where they're using

Spoiler

Liam Cunningham. I have my theory that he's going to be one of the invading Saxons, Hengist or Horsa,

and it's going to be

Spoiler

Morgana rather than Vortigern (who obviously hasn't been involved in this Merlin) who invites them to settle in Britain as a direct challenge to Arthur.

If he's not appearing in the opening two parter then I'm wondering if he's going to one of the many other Kings mentioned in Arthurian legend, although didn't they use Pellinore for one of the knights who got squished in series one rather than as a fellow king, or was that Pelleas?

Other options are Lot of Orkney, who usually marries Morgause and is the father of Gawaine, Gaheris, Gareth and Agravaine in traditional legends (obviously not in this interpretation unless they just use Gareth and Gaheris as his sons). Or he could be King Uriens, who normally is married to Morgan le Fay/Morgaine and is the father of Ywaine/Yvaine or they could give her a love interest and have him be Sir Accolon, although they seemed to have given his traditional role to Agravaine in series four.

So many options for such a fabulous actor, I hope they give him a different role to the one he's playing in

Spoiler

Game of Thrones

though, he's brilliant at the humble warrior, the noble knight etc, would be nice to see him as the evil git!

[claire2281]

As regards Liam Cunningham's role...

Spoiler

I thought he mentioned on twitter about spending the day playing a body, so I wouldn't expect him to be in it for long. The opening two parter only probably.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by claire2281

As regards Liam Cunningham's role...

Spoiler

I thought he mentioned on twitter about spending the day playing a body, so I wouldn't expect him to be in it for long. The opening two parter only probably.

Spoiler

Yes he did. So, maybe he played Vortigern! He had a kingdom. He and Morgana became allies and recruited the Saxons to fight for them against Arthur and the other kingdoms. Then, Morgana betrayed him leaving the poor guy a corpse. The Saxons having gained a foothold wouldn't leave and so they began expanding their holdings raiding coastal town of Nemeth and Caerleon. That would bring in Princess Mithian (who reminds Arthur of his treaty) and Queen Annis (who calls in one of the favors Arthur owes her from S04)

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by claire2281

As regards Liam Cunningham's role...

Spoiler

I thought he mentioned on twitter about spending the day playing a body, so I wouldn't expect him to be in it for long. The opening two parter only probably.

Ahh I hadn't seen that, interesting

[lil_miss_blonde]

Its come to my attention that someone is taking what i post on here and posing as me (using my forum name) and posting it elsewhere So therefore i will refrain from posting on here (spoiler wise anyway).

[claire2281]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Its come to my attention that someone is taking what i post on here and posing as me (using my forum name) and posting it elsewhere So therefore i will refrain from posting on here (spoiler wise anyway).

Unfortunately, that is the nature of the internet. It's a public forum (and this is a large forum!) and spoilers spread like wildfire and always will do unless they're sent privately to trusted people. There was the issue last year of DS accidentally putting up the finale synopsis very briefly. It was pointed out on here and then within hours was all over tumblr, twitter and livejournal.

So not surprised in the slightest to see the info elsewhere - it was bound to get out and I presumed it would be reported. Rather unfair that your username was used by others posing as you though! That's not on at all.

I'm really sorry to hear that you won't be posting any more as speculating and piecing things together is my favourite past time with this show, but I understand if that's your decision.

[lil_miss_blonde]

Originally Posted by claire2281

Unfortunately, that is the nature of the internet. It's a public forum (and this is a large forum!) and spoilers spread like wildfire and always will do unless they're sent privately to trusted people. There was the issue last year of DS accidentally putting up the finale synopsis very briefly. It was pointed out on here and then within hours was all over tumblr, twitter and livejournal.

So not surprised in the slightest to see the info elsewhere - it was bound to get out and I presumed it would be reported. Rather unfair that your username was used by others posing as you though! That's not on at all.

I'm really sorry to hear that you won't be posting any more as speculating and piecing things together is my favourite past time with this show, but I understand if that's your decision.

Thank you Claire, like you said its more the fact someone is using my username and actually posing as me.

I have sent you a pm Claire and as i said above i will still be posting on the thread, just more careful with what i say

[claire2281]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Thank you Claire, like you said its more the fact someone is using my username and actually posing as me.

I have sent you a pm Claire and as i said above i will still be posting on the thread, just more careful with what i say

Yes, your PM was very grateful received by someone who loves those female characters more than is healthy

[Cadiva]

I think passing on spoilers which are read in one place and then mentioned somewhere else is fine but actually pretending to be someone else is utterly out of order.
Sorry to hear someone's treating your insider information in this manner LMB and thank you for my PM, it's appreciated.

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Its come to my attention that someone is taking what i post on here and posing as me (using my forum name) and posting it elsewhere So therefore i will refrain from posting on here (spoiler wise anyway).

That's unfortunate. I hope you don't get into any trouble or anything like that and I hope you don't stop posting non-spoilery stuff.

But, thank you for the spoilers you did provide. It confirmed or rejected some of the ideas and speculations about this show. And, it should set at ease what some of us thought was a rudderless course during S04.

I for one am convinced the show's following a version of the Hero(ine)'s Journey. And we've seen either figuratively or literally the characters that would steer the protagonist from that Journey. Thus far, we've seen: False Knights/Damsels in Distress of Romantic Love; Ogres/Trolls of Tyranny; and at least one Dragon of Dependency representing the present/future and perhaps we'll see the other representing the past/present (okay, so maybe it MIGHT be Kilgharrah).

Following that, S05 should be about the Reconciliation of Magic and Non-Magic and the Resurrection of Albion which often results after a conflict and spoken of as a thesis/anti-thesis synthesis. What the producers have mentioned thus far points to that from the perspective of the

Spoiler

Saxon-Breton war in eps. 1-2 and the need for unifying the five kingdoms (re-union of the Anima and Animus), Morgana's alliance with the Saxons and the "mother-daughter separation", etc.

And, what we should expect is some episode in S05 tying in the Bruta story of Merlin (showing the "break" with the masculine) with the need for unifying the kingdoms (healing the male-female split) against a common foe by making Merlin's bedtime tale less of a tale and more of a legend.

I know I'm in the minority of this on this board but S04E13 felt lacking because there was no tie-in linking the sword in the stone with the kingdom justifying any claim to ruling Albion much less any other kingdom or elevating the tale to anything else but a made-up story. That left the question: So, why should Arthur believe it?

Well, he saw it. But, would that be enough to convince anyone else, like the King of Mercia or Queen of Caerleon to believe much less agree with someone's claim: Give up your kingdom to me for I pulled out a sword in a stone and I am the rightful heir of Bruta, the first king of Breton, the son of Ascanius, Prince of Troy, and King of Latinus?

Unless, there's some kernel of truth to the tale that would have people believe it to be true then the answer would be "no." And, without others to reinforce that claim as true, then the answer is "no." And especially those rulers, even if they believed the tale to be true, would not surrender their rule without a fight especially if they had the backing of their people.

There's an old saying in story telling: the best are those that have a trace of truth to underscore its credibility. And, that wasn't clear enough in the S04E13. I know some people won't believe it but this idea's based on motivation in individual behavior: action or inaction. It ties in nicely with Joseph Campbell's and Maureen Murdock's ideas about the Hero(ine) Archetype. And, if you have any questions about it, you should have access to an excellent resource in Eoin C. Macken, BSc.

[Avi8]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Its come to my attention that someone is taking what i post on here and posing as me (using my forum name) and posting it elsewhere So therefore i will refrain from posting on here (spoiler wise anyway).

That's not good lil_miss_blonde Your spoilers are the only ones I have faith in.

[GBali]

Originally Posted by lil_miss_blonde

Its come to my attention that someone is taking what i post on here and posing as me (using my forum name) and posting it elsewhere

I'm sorry to hear that.

I don't know anything about your involvement with the production, obviously, but I would like to ask something, if you don't mind. Not about spoilers, but some insider information.

I'm wondering if the showrunners, producers or anyone in charge know how crap the show's online PR is, especially the use of social media?
MerlinOfficial which has 600k followers on facebook and almost 40k on twitter is useless most of the time. They barely promote the show, they don't inform the fans about actors appearing at conventions, March came and went and they failed to report the fact that series 5 has begun shooting.

This week they finally tweeted the following message:

Hello #Merlin Fans! As we are only in the early stages of filming Series 5 we can't tweet much news yet for fear of spoilers!

I'm not a massive fan of Doctor Who, but I come across new on-set pictures of DW every week, and they have already released a teaser trailer for the next series (which also returns in the Autumn). Meanwhile Merlin Official doesn't want to tweet about series 5 for fear of spoilers... Does this make any sense? Do they have any clue?

I know Merlin is hugely successfull, so the show is doing fine without proper PR, but their incompetence is simply annoying.
I don't know if these accounts are managed by Shine, Fremantle Media or BBC, but I would like to know if anyone's aware of this issue, and if we can hope any improvement.

Sorry, it's more a rant than a question, and a bit OT. Ignore my post if it's a problem to answer.

[MikeAP001]

Just out of curiosity, did MERLIN ever mention the names of the five kingdoms? Historically, Geoffrey mentioned 4 kingdoms following Bruta named for his general (Corneis) and Bruta's 3 sons: Cornwall, Logeia, Albany, and Cymru. And in SWEET DREAMS, there were two unnamed kings and the three kings were Alined, Olaf, and Uther but the kingdoms were never mentioned. So, does anyone know what are the five kingdoms that formed Albion?

[Avi8]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Just out of curiosity, did MERLIN ever mention the names of the five kingdoms? Historically, Geoffrey mentioned 4 kingdoms following Bruta named for his general (Corneis) and Bruta's 3 sons: Cornwall, Logeia, Albany, and Cymru. And in SWEET DREAMS, there were two unnamed kings and the three kings were Alined, Olaf, and Uther but the kingdoms were never mentioned. So, does anyone know what are the five kingdoms that formed Albion?

Mercia has been mentioned in the tv series....

[MikeAP001]

Originally Posted by Avi8

Mercia has been mentioned in the tv series....

Thanks!

So, that plus Camelot, Caerleon, and Nemeth means there are four named kingdoms in MERLIN.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Just out of curiosity, did MERLIN ever mention the names of the five kingdoms? Historically, Geoffrey mentioned 4 kingdoms following Bruta named for his general (Corneis) and Bruta's 3 sons: Cornwall, Logeia, Albany, and Cymru. And in SWEET DREAMS, there were two unnamed kings and the three kings were Alined, Olaf, and Uther but the kingdoms were never mentioned. So, does anyone know what are the five kingdoms that formed Albion?

Originally Posted by MikeAP001

Thanks!

So, that plus Camelot, Caerleon, and Nemeth means there are four named kingdoms in MERLIN.

Nope, there's far more.

The TV series doesn't use the same kingdom names as the legends/historical pre-unification British kingdoms. They don't refer to the Five Kingdoms by name at any point and they have also got plenty of other kingdoms which are not included in the Five. In addition, the Five Kingdoms are unified already under Uther, they're not what will form the legendary Kingdom of "Albion".

So far they have used either in story lines or dialogue or had representatives or characters from - Mercia, Essetir, Nemeth, Deobeth, Gawant, Odin's Kingdom (not given a name), the Perilous Lands, Southron, Gawant, Reghed, Northumbria and Tir-Mor, plus a few others.

The full list of referenced kingdoms is here:

Anglia
Bernicia
Caerleon (King Caerleon and later Queen Annis ' Kingdom)
Cambia
Camelot (Uther Pendragon and later Arthur and Guinevere Pendragon, part of Five Kingdoms. Morgana Pendragon also became a monarch in Camelot twice, albeit for a short period of time)
Daobeth (Kingdom mentioned by Arthur in a deleted scene, that was once a strong kingdom, until it was brought down by dragons)
Deira
Dyffed
Elmet
Essetir (Cenred's Kingdom and later, King Lot's Kingdom)
Gawant (Lord Godwyn's Kingdom)
Gwynedd
Gogoddin
Mercia (King Bayard 's Kingdom)
Nemeth (Princess Mithian's Kingdom)
Northumbria (Lord Benedict's Earldom)
Powys
The Perilous Lands [(The Fisher King's Kingdom (fallen)]
Rheged
Southron (Helios's Kingdom)
Tír-Mòr
The House of Tregor's Kingdom [Lady Catrina's Kingdom (fallen)]
Mora (Isle of Mora)
King Alined's Kingdom (part of Five Kingdoms)
King Olaf's Kingdom (part of Five Kingdoms)
Unidentified King 1 (part of Five Kingdoms)
Unidentified King 2 (part of Five Kingdoms)

[GBali]

Originally Posted by Cadiva

I'm guessing Liam Cunningham's role is as either Hengist or Horsa if they're following the traditional Saxon invaders legends.

Hengist was the bandit leader in Lancelot and Guinevere (S2E04). I don't think they will use the same name again.

Originally Posted by Cadiva

Daobeth (Kingdom mentioned by Arthur in a deleted scene, that was once a strong kingdom, until it was brought down by dragons)

Now that we might see...

Spoiler

the Saxon invaders using Aithusa as a weapon

...I'm a bit disappointed they have deleted that scene.

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by GBali

URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/merlin/characters/pages/hengist.shtml"]Hengist[/url] was the bandit leader in Lancelot and Guinevere (S2E04). I don't think they will use the same name again.

Now that we might see...

Spoiler

the Saxon invaders using Aithusa as a weapon

...I'm a bit disappointed they have deleted that scene.

Yeah I remembered about them using the name Hengist after I ran out of editing time He wasn't a Saxon though so they obviously just decided they liked the name.

If I remember rightly, he only mentioned the name, there wasn't any visuals of the dragons etc, just saying it was a kingdom which once existed as it were.

[Bio Max]

Originally Posted by Cadiva

I think you may end up being disappointed. As I've said before, they've said right from the very start that this isn't a story about Merlin the all powerful warlock that everyone knows about from the legends, it's about the boy/man before he reached that point. If we ever get a magic reveal I don't see it happening until towards the very end of this show's lifetime. It would be a total change in dynamic for the show to have an openly powerful Merlin working in Arthur's court and I'm not sure how that would work in terms of - lets have Merlin just blow up the latest threat to Camelot - instead of the various different types of episode and story line we have at the moment. An openly powerful Merlin makes the whole premise of the show utterly different imho.

Completely disagree. For me there is no variety at all. We've had 4 series of the same generic stuff some baddie turns up, Merlin has to help defeat him whilst hiding his true powers. (Also some really big baddie will be in the castle, Merlin and Gaius know he is bad but nobody else will towards the end)

By showing his magic it will allow the story to evolve. We can see how Arthur reacts to the reveal, how their friendship develops and so on. We also won't have the same sneaky battles where Merlin makes sure nobody is watching before he uses magic.

It would be a total change in dynamic and that's a good thing after 4 series of the same stuff. We don't have various types of storyline at all imo at the moment.

Don't get me wrong - I love Merlin - but I'm just desperate for the story to advance...

[Cadiva]

Originally Posted by Bio Max

Completely disagree. For me there is no variety at all. We've had 4 series of the same generic stuff some baddie turns up, Merlin has to help defeat him whilst hiding his true powers. (Also some really big baddie will be in the castle, Merlin and Gaius know he is bad but nobody else will towards the end)

By showing his magic it will allow the story to evolve. We can see how Arthur reacts to the reveal, how their friendship develops and so on. We also won't have the same sneaky battles where Merlin makes sure nobody is watching before he uses magic.

It would be a total change in dynamic and that's a good thing after 4 series of the same stuff. We don't have various types of storyline at all imo at the moment.

Don't get me wrong - I love Merlin - but I'm just desperate for the story to advance...

I guess it depends on what you (generic you not you specifically) determine is the storyline. Yes, of course Merlin's magic remains hidden, that's the basic premise of the whole show. But the story lines themselves have ranged from ones centred on Merlin himself, to those about Arthur, Morgana, Uther, Gwen, the Knights, Gaius etc.
I don't think anyone could claim that the story line of the Valiant episode is anything like the story line of The Beginning of the End or The Witchfinder being anything like Goblin's Gold etc.
As I said, yes Merlin keeps his magic hidden, with the exception of Lancelot, but that's been the show's "hook" since the very beginning and the producers have been very clear about that throughout.