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The Fall of R&B: How Pop Is Selling Its Soul for a Dance Beat


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Old 13-04-2012, 19:29
Scratchy7929
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Just come across this article in OurStage.com

sound-and-vision-the-fall-of-rb-how-pop-is-selling-its-soul-for-a-dance-beat

Thought you pop lovers would find it interesting - as someone who has interests on the fringes of pop music - I've definately noticed this change.You only have to examine Beyonce's slight fall from grace as evidence.Perhap's you could call Adele pop-soul, although she has more of an early '60's vibe to her music & is an exception to current mainstream tastes, although massively successful.Don't think LMFAO would have touched the charts a few years ago - you can't get much more of a cheesy (yet uptempo) dance based troupe than them.

What's your thought's people - is this just a tweeny & above thing or are the twenty somethings also buying into this movement in mainstream pop tastes ?
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:31
little-monster
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So glad this is being touched on. Yay, i;ve been saying this for about a year now
Although i disagree with Beyonce's fall from grace
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:35
spindiddly
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I saw an advert for an R&B compilation album and featured in the advert were;

JLS - She Makes Me Wanna
Chris Brown - Beautiful People
Pitbull & Neyo - Give Me Everything

This is not R&B.
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:40
Scratchy7929
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So glad this is being touched on. Yay, i;ve been saying this for about a year now
Although i disagree with Beyonce's fall from grace
This an American article but American tastes are very influencial on UK tastes as well.Didn't you notice that Beyonce was No.1 on the Billboard’s R&B /Hip-Hop Songs chart but only No.54 in the Hot 100 (peaking at 20).Her recent album has 'underperformed' as well.The R&B /Hip-Hop charts dominated the Hot 100 chart until very recently.
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:47
O.Michel
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Everything I've read in the article is true and I've noticed it too looking at the charts, but that's how mainstream works. Would Madonna's 'Like A Virgin' be a smash if it was released in 1994? Or would MJ's 'Billie Jean' be a hit if it was released in 1972? The trends change fast and as the years pass, especially granted how easily the new artists get overexposed and fade into irrelevancy, the trends change even faster.

And it's not just about the production of the songs or the overall sound, it's about the lyrics too. 'Baby One More Time', even if it was produced by David Guetta, remixed by LMFAO and featured Pitbull, wouldn't even crack the Hot 100, let alone go to No.1 and slay the entire pop market. The same applies to Usher's 'Burn' and Aaliyah's 'I Miss You' for example. People have different lyrical preferences now. They want half-hearted empowerment songs with cliche lyrics or full-on shamelessly autotuned club music. A genre like r n'b, which relies heavily on the lyrical content, is expected to descend in terms of popularity when the lyrics are considered insignificant in the hit making process. Which pretty much explains why Rihanna's 'We Found Love' was a smash, while 'Man Down' didn't even crack the top 20.
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:49
shaunnashines
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Artists like Trey Songz still make r&b but it's not really commercial.
But I think it has been in decline since 08/09.
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:53
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I think its the Lady Gaga effect. The Fame Monster was a different kind of RnB meets pop for the most part and because it was so successful it set the trend for everyone to follow. The likes of Just Dance and Love Game changed RnB completely into more electro dance and everyone wanted in on it.

It is a bit strange how RnB is suddenly nothing more than Euro dance. We have been used to this sound since the 80s but its only just catching on in America.

I also agree it has effected Beyonce the worst. Look at Rule The World. That was RnB. Had that been released pre 2008 it would have been huge. But because this new '''dance'' sound had taken over it never got a look in as it sounded too dated.

Apparently Ushers next album is filled with Ibiza type beats. So very sad to see so many stars selling themselves out to stay popular.

The only sort of RnB song around at the moment is Justin Bieber's Boyfriend.
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Old 13-04-2012, 19:59
Scratchy7929
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The only sort of RnB song around at the moment is Justin Bieber's Boyfriend.
F@ck me RnB must be on it's last legs then
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:01
Whoopie Doo
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F@ck me RnB must be on it's last legs then
I did say the only sort of RnB song around.

But I can't really think of anything else as like the article says its all dance music being called RnB and Boyfriend sounds very early Usher/Justin Timberlake. It wouldn't have felt out of place in the early 00s.
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:03
Eric_Blob
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I think its the Lady Gaga effect. The Fame Monster was a different kind of RnB meets pop for the most part and because it was so successful it set the trend for everyone to follow. The likes of Just Dance and Love Game changed RnB completely into more electro dance and everyone wanted in on it.

It is a bit strange how RnB is suddenly nothing more than Euro dance. We have been used to this sound since the 80s but its only just catching on in America.

I also agree it has effected Beyonce the worst. Look at Rule The World. That was RnB. Had that been released pre 2008 it would have been huge. But because this new '''dance'' sound had taken over it never got a look in as it sounded too dated.

Apparently Ushers next album is filled with Ibiza type beats. So very sad to see so many stars selling themselves out to stay popular.

The only sort of RnB song around at the moment is Justin Bieber's Boyfriend.
Sorry, but it's nothing to do with Lady Gaga, because if you look at the US charts from 2006-2008 you can see numerous electropop songs in there. Lady Gaga started doing electropop at the same time as Sean Kingston, Taio Cruz, Lily Allen, Black Eyed Peas, Kelly Rowland, etc. did. They all were doing it in 2008/2009.

You're right about Justin Bieber though. Boyfriend is currently the only urban song in the top 10 in the US.

However, having said all of this, I actually think urban music has been making a bit of a comeback this year so far, and so has alternative music. I think dance is already starting to decrease in popularity now.
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:24
Scratchy7929
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Do you think Cee Lo has anything to do with the soul / hip-hop crossover thing loosing popularity as well ? F@ck You was a big hit & he seemed to be collaborating with everyone for a while.He seems to have been a very short term solo success though.Haven't seen alot of him recently (apart from Madonna / Superleague interval gig)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cee_Lo_Green_discography
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:42
3 $pirit
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We have Chris Brown, Miguel,Trey Songz and Beyonce who do RnB but there RnB songs are not doing well in the charts at the moment. RnBjust isnt in at the moment but it will probably go through a resurgance in popularity in the future.
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:46
shaunnashines
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I did say the only sort of RnB song around.

But I can't really think of anything else as like the article says its all dance music being called RnB and Boyfriend sounds very early Usher/Justin Timberlake. It wouldn't have felt out of place in the early 00s.
Melanie Fiona - 4am? Pretty much RnB to me, similar to Usher Climax.

Monica's new album, also Estelle's.
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Old 13-04-2012, 20:53
Eric_Blob
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Do you think Cee Lo has anything to do with the soul / hip-hop crossover thing loosing popularity as well ? F@ck You was a big hit & he seemed to be collaborating with everyone for a while.He seems to have been a very short term solo success though.Haven't seen alot of him recently (apart from Madonna / Superleague interval gig)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cee_Lo_Green_discography
Considering that Cee-Lo had one of the biggest urban hits in recent years, I doubt he has anything to do with it losing popularity.

But yeah, he's been a big figure in urban music for an age. The thing is, in those genres, there's loads of artists very famous in urban communities who've never had a mainstream hit before.

He actually released LOADS of singles from his last album it seemed, and most of them were big airplay hits. But they all flopped in the UK charts, apart from Bright Lights, Bigger City, which had a Wiz Khalifa remix, got to #1 on the UK airplay chart and top 20 in the sales chart and sold quite decently.
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Old 13-04-2012, 21:04
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Good, Rnb is a crap genre in the main. Gimme monster tunes like Party Rock Anthem anytime over that crap.
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Old 13-04-2012, 21:32
Eric_Blob
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Good, Rnb is a crap genre in the main. Gimme monster tunes like Party Rock Anthem anytime over that crap.
It must be about 7 years ago now, I heard Red Foo from LMFAO rap for the first time. It was on a song called Duet. I looked for it on Youtube, but I can't find it. It's a good song though, but it's very RnB/hip hop. So even LMFAO had their origins in this kind of music.
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Old 14-04-2012, 01:42
Reem2011
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This should be the year RnB should be paving it's way back in the charts.

Nelly Futardo
Kelly Rowland
Usher
Brandy
R Kelly
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Old 14-04-2012, 01:56
iseloid
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This an American article but American tastes are very influencial on UK tastes as well.Didn't you notice that Beyonce was No.1 on the Billboard’s R&B /Hip-Hop Songs chart but only No.54 in the Hot 100 (peaking at 20).Her recent album has 'underperformed' as well.The R&B /Hip-Hop charts dominated the Hot 100 chart until very recently.
Love on top was only sent to urban radio. If she'd put it out onto pop and rythmic too, she'd have a #1.
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Old 14-04-2012, 01:58
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The title of the article is ridiculous. Records with a 'dance beat' have been part of mainstream pop for decades.
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Old 14-04-2012, 02:17
Eric_Blob
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The title of the article is ridiculous. Records with a 'dance beat' have been part of mainstream pop for decades.
The point is, if you look at the charts, like 90% of the artists doing the dance songs are RnB and hip hop singers. Look at the list of people David Guetta has worked with:

Black Eyed Peas
Kelly Rowland
Akon
Kid Cudi
Estelle
Fergie
LMFAO
Nicki Minaj
Flo Rida
Rihanna
Ludacris
Taio Cruz
Snoop Dogg
Chris Brown
Lil Wayne
Jennifer Hudson
Timbaland
Pitbull
Dev
and so on

Same with Calvin Harris, he works with Ne-Yo, Rihanna, Kelis, etc. And Benny Benassi had that massive hit with Chris Brown. RedOne works with Sean Kingston, Kelly Rowland, Jason Derulo, Usher, Lil Wayne, and so on.

That's what's different about now. It's RnB singers doing all the dance music, and the actual RnB has just disappeared from the charts. And also, dance music was rare in the US charts in, say, 2004, but now it's everywhere. It's definitely got a lot more popular.

This should be the year RnB should be paving it's way back in the charts.

Nelly Futardo
Kelly Rowland
Usher
Brandy
R Kelly
However, I agree with this. It could be making a comeback. Especially with Nelly Furtado's song. It sounds very urban. I just hope it's a big hit, and then everybody else copies her lol.
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Old 14-04-2012, 02:32
Alrightmate
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The title of the article is ridiculous. Records with a 'dance beat' have been part of mainstream pop for decades.
I know. I found the concept of the thread to be a bit ridiculous too.
As though 'Pop' is somehow a separate genre of music from Dance Music and that Pop has a soul and Dance Music hasn't.

'Pop' can be any genre of music which has been tailored to cater for mass mainstream tastes.
Pop music isn't music known for having a soul, although that's not to say that it can't have a soul. It's only remit is to simply be catchy, enjoyable to the masses, and sell itself to the most amount of people it can.

Pop is just derivative of whatever genre has been making an impression within grass roots tastes, either now or just recently. It just piggy backs on what has been tried and tested in the underground. That could be R&B, Dance Music, or Glam Rock. Then a candy floss version of a genre is created with a logo on it that says 'Pop'.
It's not supposed to have soul. It's supposed to rip the soul out of any music that has in order to cater to a broader appeal.

Any genre of music at a grass roots level will have a soul whether that be Rock, Rave, Classical, Hip Hop, Reggae, Folk, Dubstep, Country and Western, Dance, anything.
To get pop from a musical genre it is usually necessary to eradicate or dilute all traces of a soul in order to sell to a mass consumption market.

Pop can have a soul, but as pop is a process of dilution and emphasizing the aspects of a musical genre which cater for mass market tastes, you'd be lucky.
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Old 14-04-2012, 14:40
Scratchy7929
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I know. I found the concept of the thread to be a bit ridiculous too.
As though 'Pop' is somehow a separate genre of music from Dance Music and that Pop has a soul and Dance Music hasn't.
Don't think anyone who agree's with the article, won't agree with what you say as well.All the article is saying that RnB / Hip-Hop musicians are increasing using (mainly '90's) based electronic dance rhythms rather than Hip-Hop rhythms.
Perhaps you could say Hip-hop has gone back to it's root's - Disco (or the rhythm element of it's root's anyway).Disco also de-emphasised the soul element that was in it's mix that was more prevalent in Funk it's forerunner (although Funk was a genre that also emphasised the beat over it's soul influence).
Have heard these new directions in music called Electro-Hop & also Hip-Pop (not sure if there is a great deal of difference between the 2 really) .These have recently become the primary pop (sub-) genre's surpassing RnB or Urban (Rnb / Hip-Hop).


You could say that Electro-Hop has it's origins in the '80's, however.Electro-Hop in those days used Krautrock & Synthpop rhytmms.Today '90's style dance rhythms are being used instead.Ibiza Hip-Hop seems to be term quite often used.Ibiza is well known as an outlet for top house, trance and techno DJ's / producer's to present their new song's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_hop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_pop
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Old 14-04-2012, 15:04
Smudged
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The point is, if you look at the charts, like 90% of the artists doing the dance songs are RnB and hip hop singers.
Yes, and this development has led to alot of awful, generic music which will also date horribly imo. I find most modern RnB to lack soul anyway (very whiney voices) but it's still preferable to this recent craze imo. These things go in cycles and some other type of music will become popular eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Old 14-04-2012, 15:11
Eric_Blob
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Yes, and this development has led to alot of awful, generic music which will also date horribly imo. I find most modern RnB to lack soul anyway (very whiney voices) but it's still preferable to this recent craze imo. These things go in cycles and some other type of music will become popular eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
I agree. All the dance tunes for now won't be looked back on fondly, apart from a few. Even in the present people are fed up with them. But it's starting to go away now anyway.
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Old 14-04-2012, 15:43
Scratchy7929
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I agree. All the dance tunes for now won't be looked back on fondly, apart from a few. Even in the present people are fed up with them. But it's starting to go away now anyway.
Most of the out & out pop movements haven't been looked back on fondly, generally.Dance music seems to be the thing that is being pushed at the moment, even at the BBC.Dave Pearce has recently got a show on Radio 2 & 6music has a month long celebration of 'alternative' dance music as part of it's 10 year celebrations.Gilles Peterson also has a new show on 6music - someone who also features a fair amount of dance amongst his eclectic mix.Perhaps 2 stations you wouldn't expect so much dance music featured.

Perhaps this over-exposure of dance music generally, will kill off it's apparent popularity at the moment.Perhaps, at least, the cheesier end, anyway.
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