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Madeleine:The Last Hope ? BBC1 25/4/12


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Old 26-04-2012, 18:46
penelopesimpson
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Handle what? The only relevance of the McCanns being doctors is that it would have given them an even more potent rationale for concealing fatal neglect. Careers instantly finished.


Two hours is an eternity compared to the tiny handful of minutes allowed in the McCanns' timeline for an abductor to gain entrance, snatch Madeleine and spirit her out of the apartment, taking time to remove every forensic trace of his presence, and even to open the bedroom window as "a red herring", as the McCanns now claim he did.
You seriously believe that time is enough to dispose of a dead body where nobody will ever find it and attend a restaurant dinner at the same time? The work of an intruder could be less than two mins.
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:47
penelopesimpson
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Fantastic is an apt adjective. Genuine child abduction by a stranger is incredibly rare - statistically almost unknown. Have you ever heard of a holiday complex or any other location being 'targeted' by an abductor? I never have and if there was evidence for it happening in reality, surely the media would have found evidence of similar attempts?Genuine stranger child abduction is invariably opportunistic, not pre-planned. If you wanted to get hold of a white, European child and were so skilled at doing so as to pass completely undetected, surely you'd also be clever enough to choose a much less risky location than a holiday complex with adults checking on your target at regular intervals?

Even after contamination of a crime scene, forensic evidence remains. It is not removed by contamination, just a bit more difficult to find.

Clutch at straws all you like - the official version just doesn't stack up.
Motive? Means? Opportunity? Oh, and facts!
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:50
penelopesimpson
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Please check the link I sent regarding what the Portuguese Police investigation involved. There are over 4500 pages, & almost double that including the appendices all available for anyone & everyone to go through. Once you have checked it all maybe you can tell us what they missed & what areas they were incompetent in.
don't be daft, I am not a police expert. Have you now changed your position to say that the Portugese police were competent? That the crime scene was sealed, that they took all the witness statements, that they sealed the border and alerted the Spanish police?

I think I will bow to defeat now. There is clearly something about the McCanns that attracts negativity. I agree, they're middle-class professionals who made a mistake so they must have done it. Stands to reason, dun it?'
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:53
queenie
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You seriously believe that time is enough to dispose of a dead body where nobody will ever find it and attend a restaurant dinner at the same time? The work of an intruder could be less than two mins.
Two hours? I think that's about 1.8 hours more than you'd need to dig a small hole in a quiet corner of a dark, deserted beach. For example.
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:55
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You seriously believe that time is enough to dispose of a dead body where nobody will ever find it and attend a restaurant dinner at the same time?
Perhaps she had died at a time prior to that evening, and the dinner was merely used as a front to bring plausibility to their abduction story?
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:55
penelopesimpson
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I won't comment on Tabak as I'm not 100% sure I'm right. However you do say it seems clear rather than being definitive.

Regarding Soham we do not know what happened, we are making educated guesses, the bodies were too decomposed to even establish a cause of death let alone anything else. Huntley admits he was with them when they died but his version is accidental death, which as i say cannot be forensically disproved. Admittedly his version doesn't sound very plausible. But the fact is only he knows exactly what happened & he hasn't changed that story.

Brady & Hindley changed their stories many times over the years as to who did what, where the bodies are etc. We know the basics, only they know the truth of what they did & why.

With James Bulger again both boys accounts differ, we know the injuries inflicted, not who committed each one or if one boy was more the instigator than the other etc. They blamed each other. Neither gave a reason as to why they did it. Only they know. You yourself gave reasons as to why they might do it not an actual motive.

So guilt can be established without being 100% certain of the exact motive.
Agree with you on most of that. I should have thought the motivation (mostly sexual and/or sexual depravity|) was fairly obvious. With the McCann's there is nothing. Reason: there is nothing. Poor family, poor Madeleine. With this level of support in their own country, they have no chance of either finding her or finding peace. This is really quite disturbing.
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:55
Trsvis_Bickle
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don't be daft, I am not a police expert. Have you now changed your position to say that the Portugese police were competent? That the crime scene was sealed, that they took all the witness statements, that they sealed the border and alerted the Spanish police?

I think I will bow to defeat now. There is clearly something about the McCanns that attracts negativity. I agree, they're middle-class professionals who made a mistake so they must have done it. Stands to reason, dun it?'
Well, bye then but you're the only one even mentioning their socio-economic status.
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:57
penelopesimpson
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Perhaps she had died at a time prior to that evening, and the dinner was merely used as a front to bring plausibility to their abduction story?
Please check your facts. She was out playing in the pool with kids from the other families until just before supper. In clear view. I suppose we are now going to go along the lines that all the other families colluded too, are we, in this scenario which is getting increasingly desperate and preposterous. By the way, they ate in this restaurant every night.
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Old 26-04-2012, 18:58
penelopesimpson
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Well, bye then but you're the only one even mentioning their socio-economic status.
Actually, it has. Often. But like most of the postings on here, it's innuendo. Nobody comes out and says it which is the hardest thing to fight. But they are doctors, the daughter is blonde and lovely, not a badly behaved brat, and that is probably a crime too.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:00
dwight k shrute
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don't be daft, I am not a police expert. Have you now changed your position to say that the Portugese police were competent? That the crime scene was sealed, that they took all the witness statements, that they sealed the border and alerted the Spanish police?

I think I will bow to defeat now. There is clearly something about the McCanns that attracts negativity. I agree, they're middle-class professionals who made a mistake so they must have done it. Stands to reason, dun it?'
How have I have changed my position regarding the Portuguese Police ? My point is neither you or I are police experts yet you are happy to judge them here. Yet you complain of people judging the McCanns ? Little ironic maybe.

I have been through quite a bit of the police files & they hardly seem like the Keystone cops.

And there has never ever been a miss-carriage of justice in this country has there ? And our police are happy to open their files up to public scrutiny ?
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:00
penelopesimpson
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Two hours? I think that's about 1.8 hours more than you'd need to dig a small hole in a quiet corner of a dark, deserted beach. For example.
I presume you don't write crime novels!

- how do you get body to beach without being seen
- what do you use for a spade
- it was not dark
- nobody notices? This is not Necker Island, it's a busy resort in Portugal, with people all over the place
- how do you stop the feral dogs digging it up during the night (you did say a small hole)
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:02
queenie
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Actually, it has. Often. But like most of the postings on here, it's innuendo. Nobody comes out and says it which is the hardest thing to fight. But they are doctors, the daughter is blonde and lovely, not a badly behaved brat, and that is probably a crime too.
What a sorry load of old chestnuts. Come on, you're not even trying!
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:02
penelopesimpson
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How have I have changed my position regarding the Portuguese Police ? My point is neither you or I are police experts yet you are happy to judge them here. Yet you complain of people judging the McCanns ? Little ironic maybe.

I have been through quite a bit of the police files & they hardly seem like the Keystone cops.

And there has never ever been a miss-carriage of justice in this country has there ? And our police are happy to open their files up to public scrutiny ?
I think by any standards the Portugese investigation was lacking. I make no comparison with this country, other than to say that our cops, regrettably, have more murders to deal with. The Portugese were caught completely on the back foot. Even their own commander says there were many mistakes made.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:03
penelopesimpson
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What a sorry load of old chestnuts. Come on, you're not even trying!
Actually, whenever I agree and say they're guilty and invite people to say why, everybody goes quiet!
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:03
PhilH36
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I see that whilst papers such as the Daily Mail say Madeline "COULD be alive",the Daily Express,known for their obsession with the case,have a headline screaming "MADELINE: SHE IS ALIVE". This is extremely dangerous territory even for the Express to be getting into since there is no concrete or firm evidence that Madeline is alive or dead. She could be alive,she could be dead,but the Express don't know for a FACT that she's alive. Saying "Madeline MAY still be alive" is perfectly acceptable. Saying "Madeline IS alive" is not.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:04
dwight k shrute
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Agree with you on most of that. I should have thought the motivation (mostly sexual and/or sexual depravity|) was fairly obvious. With the McCann's there is nothing. Reason: there is nothing. Poor family, poor Madeleine. With this level of support in their own country, they have no chance of either finding her or finding peace. This is really quite disturbing.
Fair point, there is no obvious reason (or obvious to assume reason). That is no reason to stop asking questions should they need answering.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:06
aggs
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Please check your facts. She was out playing in the pool with kids from the other families until just before supper. In clear view. I suppose we are now going to go along the lines that all the other families colluded too, are we, in this scenario which is getting increasingly desperate and preposterous. By the way, they ate in this restaurant every night.
Really? Do you have a link for that info - because as far as I was aware noone outside the family (apart from David Payne) saw her after she went home from the creche and certainly nothing about playing in the pool, other than the last photo which showed her dabbling her feet in but that was at lunchtime not later in the afternoon.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:08
queenie
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- how do you get body to beach without being seen
- what do you use for a spade
- it was not dark
- nobody notices? This is not Necker Island, it's a busy resort in Portugal, with people all over the place
- how do you stop the feral dogs digging it up during the night (you did say a small hole)
In early May, Praia da Luz is quiet by day and almost a ghost-town by night. Gerry McCann and Jane Tanner both said so - the streets were all but deserted after dark. And I don't know if you live in Greenland, but in southern Europe 9.30-10pm in May is dark.

No idea about what you'd use for a spade. Would a spade do?
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:09
queenie
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Actually, whenever I agree and say they're guilty and invite people to say why, everybody goes quiet!
I think you'll find that's because saying why generally gets the thread closed forthwith.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:09
penelopesimpson
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In early May, Praia da Luz is quiet by day and almost a ghost-town by night. Gerry McCann and Jane Tanner both said so - the streets were all but deserted after dark. And I don't know if you live in Greenland, but in southern Europe 9.30-10pm in May is dark.

No idea about what you'd use for a spade. Would a spade do?
Do you take a spade on holiday with you?

Check your timelines. He couldn't nip off in the middle of his meal, dig a grave and nip back. Are you really so keen to convict the McCanns that you'll put up lunatice hypotheses? That kind of hate is truly amazing.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:09
earthling13
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Actually, whenever I agree and say they're guilty and invite people to say why, everybody goes quiet!
Because they want the unanswered questions to be answered before they come to a definite conclusion. Very few posters have answers just questions.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:12
jamie1992
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Please check your facts. She was out playing in the pool with kids from the other families until just before supper. In clear view. I suppose we are now going to go along the lines that all the other families colluded too, are we, in this scenario which is getting increasingly desperate and preposterous. By the way, they ate in this restaurant every night.
According to this newspaper article :
7:00pm Madeleine and the other children were put to bed. Reports of when she was last seen before this vary, with some accounts putting it as early as 6pm. This would be crucial as the police might put forward a theory that the McCanns killed Madeleine and hid her body before they went for dinner.
The parents did not arrive for dinner until around 8:30pm.
The authorities were not alerted to Madeleine's disappearance until 10:14pm.
So there was a potential window of up to 4 hours 14 minutes.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:15
Trsvis_Bickle
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I presume you don't write crime novels!

- how do you get body to beach without being seen
- what do you use for a spade
- it was not dark
- nobody notices? This is not Necker Island, it's a busy resort in Portugal, with people all over the place
- how do you stop the feral dogs digging it up during the night (you did say a small hole)
Oh, make your mind up. You might just as well ask the same questions about the abductor theory. Why would this skilled abductor choose a time when it wasn't dark to strike? Why even target a resort with 'people all over the place'? How did he get away completely un-noticed, not just with the child but during his surveillance?

Look, you've clearly made up your mind about this so I really don't see the point of debating it further with you. If you're genuinely interested then do your own research.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:17
jules1000
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Do you take a spade on holiday with you?

Check your timelines. He couldn't nip off in the middle of his meal, dig a grave and nip back. Are you really so keen to convict the McCanns that you'll put up lunatice hypotheses? That kind of hate is truly amazing.
I think maybe should should go work for them...It will ease your pain.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:17
fifilapew
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Do you take a spade on holiday with you?

Check your timelines. He couldn't nip off in the middle of his meal, dig a grave and nip back. Are you really so keen to convict the McCanns that you'll put up lunatice hypotheses? That kind of hate is truly amazing.
I always have spades when on a beach holiday.

Madeleine wasn't seen by anyone other than her parents after 18.00 and the parents didnt arrive at dinner until 20.30. One of the other parents checked for crying outside the apt but didn't actually see Madeleine or the twins. Essentially the last time Madeleine was seen alive was at least 4 hours before the alarm was raised.
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