[Rhumbatugger]

Originally Posted by Skolastyka

Hey Sid! Yeah, I haven't been around a lot, and I must admit I have missed this place.



Don't strain your arm patting yourself on the back there!

You know what? I don't doubt it, and nor does it concern me. The fact that I don't meet your standards of tepid passive aggression is not something that is going to trouble my sleep or indeed my waking hours. Now, feel free to have the last word (I get the distinct impression that it's rather important to you), because I'm out

I'm not going to let you have the last word, actually, because that is what YOU want.

Unkindness, and smartcleverness, and putting it out there and all that, isn't an answer.

Sweet dreams.

[Keiō Line]

Originally Posted by Skolastyka

Don't strain your arm patting yourself on the back there!

So you know about my disability, a very cheap nasty snide remark. No doubt you are very pleased with thinking up that one.

Originally Posted by Skolastyka

You know what? I don't doubt it, and nor does it concern me. The fact that I don't meet your standards of tepid passive aggression is not something that is going to trouble my sleep or indeed my waking hours. Now, feel free to have the last word (I get the distinct impression that it's rather important to you), because I'm out

Thank you I have nothing more to add to what has been said. You are in my prayers.

[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by d'@ve

That is not why he is being defended.

He holds his view because his nearest and dearest loved one was killed by enemy action on a civilian population, in a conflict started by that enemy: the nation of Germany. It is an irrational view but that's what often happens following such traumatic and tragic events and I would never criticize anyone for holding it in that situation. If they then go about trying to persuade everyone else to adopt that same attitude, that is unacceptable but that isn't happening here.

Such bitterness is a normal human reaction to a personal tragedy which was not an accident, and nobody, not even you or me, would necessarily be immune to it given similar circumstances.

Indeed, d'@ve, and the situation is not helped in any way today when Germany still refuses to act responsibly to prosecute/extradite known war criminals or deal with their far-right extremists:

Critics organizing the protests against Gauck's visit are focusing on Germany's failure to extradite war criminal Klaas Carel Faber.
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15924335,00.html

In November 2011 German authorities discovered a string of racially motivated murders that were carried out from 2000 to 2007. A neo-Nazi terror cell founded as early 1998 under the name of National Socialist Underground (NSU) was accused of at least ten killings, several attacks and bank robberies. The events put the spotlight on alleged police negligence and resurging right-wing extremism in Germany.
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15917878,00.html

[neelia]

Originally Posted by d'@ve

That is not why he is being defended.

He holds his view because his nearest and dearest loved one was killed by enemy action on a civilian population, in a conflict started by that enemy: the nation of Germany. It is an irrational view but that's what often happens following such traumatic and tragic events and I would never criticize anyone for holding it in that situation. If they then go about trying to persuade everyone else to adopt that same attitude, that is unacceptable but that isn't happening here.

Such bitterness is a normal human reaction to a personal tragedy which was not an accident, and nobody, not even you or me, would necessarily be immune to it given similar circumstances.

I totally disagree that it is a normal human reaction but in the absence of the specific research I have nothing to link to. I would say that it is perfectly normal to have that attitude to the people who did it but NOT to those who didn't.

I definitely would be necessarily immune to it.

[Rhumbatugger]

Originally Posted by neelia

I totally disagree that it is a normal human reaction but in the absence of the specific research I have nothing to link to. I would say that it is perfectly normal to have that attitude to the people who did it but NOT to those who didn't.

I definitely would be necessarily immune to it.

Oh come on.

I've been raped by ten VIKING warriors, over four years, I think Viking warriors are a bit, you know, bloody awful, and rapists.

And they sacked the village every bloody time an' all.

And killed me kids.

'I do not think this is a reasonable reaction'.

Smells like seriously, seriously, stupid lack of empathy to me.

[neelia]

Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger

Oh come on.

I've been raped by ten VIKING warriors, over four years, I think Viking warriors are a bit, you know, bloody awful, and rapists.

And they sacked the village every bloody time an' all.

And killed me kids.

'I do not think this is a reasonable reaction'.

Smells like seriously, seriously, stupid lack of empathy to me.

You post makes no sence. You have started with a string of atrocities and then you quote my " I do not think that this is a reasonable reaction" without giving the reaction to those atrocities that would be deemed reasonable or not.

I have empathy fir his suffering but I have none for him blameing all German for it. I don't want to empathise with that. There are too many people willing to excuse that sort of thing.

Many people in Northern Ireland have been slaughtered. Some people think this is adequate excuse to hate everyone of the perceived religion of the perpetrator of their loved one. Some of us know that there is simply no excuse for this. Although in PM's case there is no suggestion that he resorted to "revenge" as too many did in NI - not targetting the person or organisation that wronged them but anyone that was considered from the same "tribe" but I guess that's just an extension of a "normal" reaction and they just need a bit of empathy!

[Skolastyka]

Originally Posted by Keiō Line

So you know about my disability, a very cheap nasty snide remark. No doubt you are very pleased with thinking up that one.

Actually am going to come in here. No, I do not know about your disability, or indeed anything about you that hasn't been gleaned from this short discussion, so you're wrong to jump to that conclusion. That comment was in response to your attitude, and only that.

[Rhumbatugger]

Originally Posted by neelia

You post makes no sence. You have started with a string of atrocities and then you quote my " I do not think that this is a reasonable reaction" without giving the reaction to those atrocities that would be deemed reasonable or not.

I have empathy fir his suffering but I have none for him blameing all German for it. I don't want to empathise with that. There are too many people willing to excuse that sort of thing.

Many people in Northern Ireland have been slaughtered. Some people think this is adequate excuse to hate everyone of the perceived religion of the perpetrator of their loved one. Some of us know that there is simply no excuse for this. Although in PM's case there is no suggestion that he resorted to "revenge" as too many did in NI - not targetting the person or organisation that wronged them but anyone that was considered from the same "tribe" but I guess that's just an extension of a "normal" reaction and they just need a bit of empathy!

Look.

I'm saying that there IS room for empathy in extreme situations.

I set it in the past because it doesn't affect us anymore. Not like NI.

I'm talking about an OLD MAN who is scarred by his experience but has never actually ACTED on that as you acknowledge.

I want everyone to forgive. I've had arguments with Afro Caribbeans, saying that at the time of slavery I was a Doncaster child working in a mine.

I lived in North Wales and could hardly believe the level of hatred for the 'saesneg'. ( I did resort to 'small and conquered nation, and you were all killing each other anyway, but only after extreme provocation ( like being held personally and completely responsible in drunken bars))

But at the end of the day it is IMPORTANT that it was terrible, awful WWII, and that PM is very old but that he DIRECTLY experienced it - not just the loss of his love, but probably the bombing, the death, the fear and horror of it all.

It's hard, and it can be overcome, but often it isn't. And if people just say ' I hate the bloody English' or 'I hate the bloody Germans' and they have reason, and they are old, but they have still led a decent and productive life. Then I'm not going to hate them.

It's sad, and I grieve for it all, but it won't help anyone to judge it.

Save that for the young, who only have outrage and stories.

[BinaryDad]

I've been a massive fan of Patrick Moore since I was a nipper, wathcing Sky at Night. Along with a primary school teacher, he was one of the big influences that got me interested in astronomy and physics.

I find his view on Germany to be rather sad. I can see where he's coming from, but I can't really see how his view of the Germans fits with the people I live and work with.

I'm also rather skeptical of his "economic war" comment as well. I believe that this is a lie that he tells people or perhaps himself, to justify his on going dislike and hatred.

He seems to forget that many of the great scientists in the 20th century were either German or Austrian (and Austria was more than just eager to join with Germany) and that many of them, just like the German public, were not violent people.

But then, I don't expect him to see that. He probably doesn't want to let go of his grief because it would mean that he's finally lost the love of his life.

I feel very, very sorry for the old man.

[Keiō Line]

Originally Posted by BinaryDad

I'm also rather skeptical of his "economic war" comment as well. I believe that this is a lie that he tells people or perhaps himself, to justify his on going dislike and hatred.

It's almost certainly a lie. I have heard the claim from so many people each attributing it to be said and heard by different people at different times.

Sir Patrick has probably heard the story believed it, and given the story "authority" by claiming it happened to him. He would not be unique in this, in fact its quite common for people to adopt and stretch stories so as to convince people what they say is true. (A case of "justified" lieing ). There is a further phenomena of some people actually end up believing their own lies.

Originally Posted by BinaryDad

I'm also rather skeptical of his "economic war" comment as well. I believe that this is a lie that he tells people or perhaps himself, to justify his on going dislike and hatred.

He seems to forget that many of the great scientists in the 20th century were either German or Austrian (and Austria was more than just eager to join with Germany) and that many of them, just like the German public, were not violent people.

But then, I don't expect him to see that. He probably doesn't want to let go of his grief because it would mean that he's finally lost the love of his life.

I feel very, very sorry for the old man.

I agree.