[cc.cookie]

Originally Posted by NewPark

No, can't entirely agree with either of my distinguished colleagues here.
(cc.cookie and simplyred)

I just have the sense that many times the artist (writer, composer, dramatist, painter) says more than h/she means. That has to be so because any work of art embodies the era and context in which it was produced, and some of this the artist expresses without even intending to -- just because the framework seems so natural to him/her and is hidden.

Moreover, people can "mean" things at a level that is not verbal, rational or entirely conscious.

I wish I hadn't slept through or cut my entire course in "Philosophy of Esthetics" when an undergraduate. Maybe I would have some idea of what I was talking about.

I think we've pretty well beat to death here the idea of whether we're entitled to think of DM as someone with Asperger's even though he doesn't think so. (My view -- if they "meant" to portray someone with Asperger's they didn't succeed).

I am too easily swayed. You all put forward such good arguments. I was going to ask my highly intelligent sister and come back with some telling statements that cut right to the bone, but she's busy atm dealing with kids, husbands and everyday turmoil.


Yes thank god they didn't succeed if that was their intent. Bring on series 6 where DM learns that change can be a good thing if he "wants" to change (harking back to my second favourite episode, sigh!) and grow.

[cc.cookie]

I did "philosophy of rationality and critical thought" at uni but I don't think my lecturer would be at all surprised that I don't know how to apply any of it!

[mmDerdekea]

Originally Posted by ReneeBird

Wow, this puts his statement, "I'm not going to be like my father", in a whole new light. I always thought he just meant what kind of father he was going to be. But, this does explain more about his behavior in Series 5. How earlier someone stated that Martin grew up with his father making all the decisions (that would explain Martin scheduling the Christening, etc.), the lack of interest in Louisa after the birth of JH (just like his father). We do get so much of our ideals and behaviors from our parents (whether we want to or not). No wonder he was struggling so much!

I'm not so sure Martin had any clue that his dad lost interest in his mother after his birth, until his mother actually told him that herself. How would a child growing up know what had occurred before and after his birth in the relationship of his parents. We saw how surprised Martin was by his mother's whole nasty monologue. So, I doubt that had anything to do with his statement "Not be like my father." I think the dream he had probably gives us the best clues as to where that statement came from.

[mmDerdekea]

Originally Posted by NewPark

Sorry to bang on about this,.... but I just am trying to work this out, and had an "insight" -- bad or good I don't know.


What if .... that whole sequence can be read slightly differently. When he said, " doesn't matter, London, where James goes to school.. [what matters is] ..I'm not going to be like my father and he's not going to be like me..." he was really saying that the issues of London and James' school were much less important in his difficulties with their relationship, than was his fear that like his father, he was going to be a terrible husband and father, and make both Louisa and James miserable. Because after all, that's the only model of a marriage he knows really well, and it's recently been impressed on him what a disaster it was for his mother and he's coming to realize, for him.

That way of looking at it, then, casts a long shadow back to S3E7, when he was deciding that he wouldn't marry her b/c he wouldn't make her happy. Perhaps there he was not only thinking of his own inadequacies, but just as crucially, reflecting on the unhappy nature of his own parents' marriage, and feeling that it was inevitable that he would do the same to Louisa. He did not want her to turn out like his mother.

The realization that I'm not my father -- I don't have to be like him, to play out his mistakes (or his successes) is a major step forward in emotional growth. That's another reason why I feel more sanguine about S6.

I don't think that is reading anything "differently". That's how I always read that scene--he won't be a terrible husband and he won't be a terrible father, like his father was. It's the simplest and yet most comprehensive understanding of his thoughts at that moment.

[Conniej]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...d=326373736506

[NewPark]

Originally Posted by mmDerdekea

I don't think that is reading anything "differently". That's how I always read that scene--he won't be a terrible husband and he won't be a terrible father, like his father was. It's the simplest and yet most comprehensive understanding of his thoughts at that moment.

The part of this that is new to me, anyway, is that what he was saying is that the disagreements we have had, and the issues we face, are not very important, don't matter in fact, compared to my (DM's) conclusion that I don't have to repeat my father's mistakes. I am not my father. A simple, but emotionally very powerful insight, and one that I believe it took him some time to come to. And I am running with the interpretation that this is what underlay a lot of the holding pattern and limbo that S5 seemed to be --that he was working his way to this insight. And that getting to this place was essential to their moving forward. Because, at least to me, the implication of this statement coming at this moment, is that prior to this insight, his fear/belief that he would be like his father was a factor in his withholding of commitment.

I'm not sure the ground was adequately prepared for this, but I now think this is what was "meant."

Because at the beginning of S5,he still had not changed his mind, I don't think, that he would not make LG happy, would not be a good husband and father. Both because of his knowlege of his own inadequacies and because his observations of marriage, especially of his parents, were not reassuring. And I just don't believe that the nasty speech of his mother was his first clue that their marriage was not a happy one. Remember that he and his parents had been estranged for some years (Season 1) and he must have had some drift of his father's character.

Throughout S5, I think he felt himself acting and feeling differently than his father, especially with respect to JH, but also that his love for LG was undiminished after the birth of their child. These things working on him, plus his devastation after she left, led to the revelation (to him) that it was all right for him to try to be in a relationship with her, as he did have the potential to make her and James Henry "happy," and was not destined to live out his father's negative pattern.

speaking of bringing things to interpretation of a work of art -- if we may call DM that -- I do tend to have a psychodynamic way of looking at things, and in that view, the ability of a son to separate himself in that way from his father is very, very important -- huge. And does not necessarily take place when it should, working through adolescence, but often delayed. So, that's what I bring to it, and it contributes to my making a different picture, which I recognize may not be shared by all.

[simplyred]

Originally Posted by cc.cookie

This is the best interpretation from my point of view. If it was just about JH why would he be saying it to LG at such an important emotional climax. It has to go deeper than that and involve his feeling for LG too.
Dcdmfan is right that the whole series 5 was dotted with references to DM's about his abilities as both a father and a husband. But despite all this hidden angst I still don't get why they were platonically sharing a bed and a house with only the slight show of affection in the whole series. And they didn't discuss anything, except how inept Dr Di was, once in the whole series 5 .

You may be correct CC, but, IMO, these are assumptions that can't be validated - just because we didn't get to see on screen anything much in the way of expressions of emotion doesn't mean that there weren't any in the wonderous world of Port Wenn

[simplyred]

Originally Posted by Conniej

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...d=326373736506

Now that's what I call a proper in-depth interview

[mazzieblue]

Originally Posted by NewPark

The part of this that is new to me, anyway, is that what he was saying is that the disagreements we have had, and the issues we face, are not very important, don't matter in fact, compared to my (DM's) conclusion that I don't have to repeat my father's mistakes. I am not my father. A simple, but emotionally very powerful insight, and one that I believe it took him some time to come to. And I am running with the interpretation that this is what underlay a lot of the holding pattern and limbo that S5 seemed to be --that he was working his way to this insight. And that getting to this place was essential to their moving forward. Because, at least to me, the implication of this statement coming at this moment, is that prior to this insight, his fear/belief that he would be like his father was a factor in his withholding of commitment.

I'm not sure the ground was adequately prepared for this, but I now think this is what was "meant."

Because at the beginning of S5,he still had not changed his mind, I don't think, that he would not make LG happy, would not be a good husband and father. Both because of his knowlege of his own inadequacies and because his observations of marriage, especially of his parents, were not reassuring. And I just don't believe that the nasty speech of his mother was his first clue that their marriage was not a happy one. Remember that he and his parents had been estranged for some years (Season 1) and he must have had some drift of his father's character.

Throughout S5, I think he felt himself acting and feeling differently than his father, especially with respect to JH, but also that his love for LG was undiminished after the birth of their child. These things working on him, plus his devastation after she left, led to the revelation (to him) that it was all right for him to try to be in a relationship with her, as he did have the potential to make her and James Henry "happy," and was not destined to live out his father's negative pattern.

speaking of bringing things to interpretation of a work of art -- if we may call DM that -- I do tend to have a psychodynamic way of looking at things, and in that view, the ability of a son to separate himself in that way from his father is very, very important -- huge. And does not necessarily take place when it should, working through adolescence, but often delayed. So, that's what I bring to it, and it contributes to my making a different picture, which I recognize may not be shared by all.

But if you look at the whole fairy tale series arc, I think it does lay this groundwork. S3 was about him as husband material. S4 was about him as father material. I think S5 was the culmination of the two. He concluded in both that he wold be a terrible husband and father, only saving himself from making a stupid mistake about the latter in the last second.

S5 showed him what he stood to lose if he was right, or at least was unwilling to try. By the end, he concluded he was wrong - he could be a could husband and father. (I guess this would almost make S6 an epilogue to close it out?)

I also think we're forgetting the last bit of the trilogy - "and I do love you." It was his reason for the first two statements. I think i can do this because I love you. Unlike my father, I am starting out knowing that I want your happiness and our child's happiness and therefore you will be the center of my life, not a nuisance that gets in the way of me doing what i want.

On another note, I would have liked to see LG make a similar "discovery" about herself and her mother. I am not like my mother - I would never selfishly abandon my family, JH is not like me - feeling abandoned and rejected, and I love my partner - some how I doubt that was said much around her home either. Whatever terrible childhoods both DM and LG had, they are starting out by loving each other which puts them in a entirely different place than either of their parents.

[acmac]

Originally Posted by cc.cookie

However, I believe simply red's assertion that the authors intent has to be paramount. Otherwise the reader is dismissing the value of the entire piece and simply saying "you fool, I know better than you what you were trying to say". That is a very arrogant thing to do.

The point isn't to say that the author's intent is wrong, just that it isn't the only possible interpretation. Usually, there is no single "correct" interpretation. All the different critical lenses (including the historical/biographical approach, which does try to determine author intent/motivation) were developed out of respect for art, in order to wring every last bit of meaning out of it. If a work is complex enough to support multiple valid interpretations, that speaks well of its quality (and, incidentally, of it's creator's artistry).

[GordonSetter]

Originally Posted by cc.cookie

I think what Gordon Setter says is true of course because we are all coming from different places to view/read the same thing. However, I believe simply red's assertion that the authors intent has to be paramount. Otherwise the reader is dismissing the value of the entire piece and simply saying "you fool, I know better than you what you were trying to say". That is a very arrogant thing to do.

I don’t think it means saying to the creative agent – the artist, actor, writer, etc. – “I know better than you what you are trying to say.” It may be more like – “I think I understand what you are expressing…. and here is how that has impacted me – here is what I also see in this expression….” The author/ originator simply can’t know and hold the complete implications of his/her work. That is especially true with great art. It might be one way of defining great artistic expression – that it profoundly touches the soul of the observer and stimulates more creative thinking and action.

How many artistic people will tell you that their inspiration to create comes from an insight – an epiphany – aroused by the work of another artist? Beauty and truth build on each other and are bigger than one person or creative act. Here, for me, is a powerful example: NewPark makes reference in a post above to a “psychodynamic way” of looking at things. Her reference point is the ability of a son to separate himself from the ways of his father – clearly an emerging theme in the Doc Martin story. Wow! How much artistic reflection and creation has been generated by that bit of life experience? Have you seen Tree of Life? We could start a whole discussion forum about the theme of fathers and sons just from that one movie. I haven’t met a man my age (mid-fifties) who has seen that move – with honesty - who hasn’t been drawn into some kind of reflection and insight that is both personal and universal. And both, I bet, within and beyond the scope of artistic creation envisioned by director Terrence Malick. It probably isn’t fair to compare Doc Martin to Tree of Life, but the underlying point is that inspiration and creativity have a diffusive character. They plant themselves in our souls and we can never completely predict how it will all emerge nor how different people will contribute to the end product/ experience.

[simplyred]

Originally Posted by acmac

The point isn't to say that the author's intent is wrong, just that it isn't the only possible interpretation. Usually, there is no single "correct" interpretation. All the different critical lenses (including the historical/biographical approach, which does try to determine author intent/motivation) were developed out of respect for art, in order to wring every last bit of meaning out of it. If a work is complex enough to support multiple valid interpretations, that speaks well of its quality (and, incidentally, of it's creator's artistry).

But is it valid (as opposed to merely expressing a point of view), to apportion a meaning that the writer/composer expressly did not intend?

[NewPark]

Originally Posted by mazzieblue

But if you look at the whole fairy tale series arc, I think it does lay this groundwork. S3 was about him as husband material. S4 was about him as father material. I think S5 was the culmination of the two. He concluded in both that he wold be a terrible husband and father, only saving himself from making a stupid mistake about the latter in the last second.

S5 showed him what he stood to lose if he was right, or at least was unwilling to try. By the end, he concluded he was wrong - he could be a could husband and father. (I guess this would almost make S6 an epilogue to close it out?)

I also think we're forgetting the last bit of the trilogy - "and I do love you." It was his reason for the first two statements. I think i can do this because I love you. Unlike my father, I am starting out knowing that I want your happiness and our child's happiness and therefore you will be the center of my life, not a nuisance that gets in the way of me doing what i want.

On another note, I would have liked to see LG make a similar "discovery" about herself and her mother. I am not like my mother - I would never selfishly abandon my family, JH is not like me - feeling abandoned and rejected, and I love my partner - some how I doubt that was said much around her home either. Whatever terrible childhoods both DM and LG had, they are starting out by loving each other which puts them in a entirely different place than either of their parents.

Very well put, Mazzieblue. I especially like the point that S3 is about him grappling with whether he would be a good husband and S4 is about whether he would be a good father. Arguably at the end of S3, he made the "right" decision, because at that time he may NOT have been ready. And he only accidentally got to make the right decision at the end of S4, about being a good father. And S5 was about living out the experience, and by some process, arriving at the breakthrough insight that he did not HAVE to repeat his father's mistakes, and would not, because, as you rightly say, he knows that he does love LG, and that it is OK to make a commitment to her and JH.

So I have hopes that S6 will show us how this works out in practice (haltingly, with many setbacks, I assume) but it is also understandable that the writers have come to a point where they feel they have basically told their story -- which does have a lot resonances with very old and deeply felt themes.

[dcdmfan]

Originally Posted by acmac

The point isn't to say that the author's intent is wrong, just that it isn't the only possible interpretation. Usually, there is no single "correct" interpretation. All the different critical lenses (including the historical/biographical approach, which does try to determine author intent/motivation) were developed out of respect for art, in order to wring every last bit of meaning out of it. If a work is complex enough to support multiple valid interpretations, that speaks well of its quality (and, incidentally, of it's creator's artistry).

My two cents is based on my experience working in the theater with an original play vis-a-vis the Director and Playwright. The playwright is not often the best Director for the play. He or she writes the play with specific ideas about the line readings and intentions of the characters. The Director often has a broader approach to the material, and the actors bring their own abilities and perspectives to their roles. What the Playwright envisioned is generally very specific and often it cannot be acheived as envisioned. The Director's job is to bring out those ideas and more to life on stage.

You generally don't want the Playwright @ every rehearsal, and you don't want the Playwright directly giving the actors notes - they should always go through the Director first. Playwrights often hem and haw to anyone who will listen. I did an original musical this winter, and the writers were often talking to me about their frustrations - I was production manager - it was my job to hear them vent.

So I don't know about theories of author's intent as opposed to audience interpretation. I just know what works when the show is produced. It varies some if the Playwright is new or an established one, if the Director and Playwright often work together, etc. But those are the general standards applied in American theater. I think that the writer may have a different - higher- staus in British theatre and television- that's what I've heard anyway.

[Biffpup]

Originally Posted by ReneeBird

Wow, this puts his statement, "I'm not going to be like my father", in a whole new light. I always thought he just meant what kind of father he was going to be. But, this does explain more about his behavior in Series 5. How earlier someone stated that Martin grew up with his father making all the decisions (that would explain Martin scheduling the Christening, etc.), the lack of interest in Louisa after the birth of JH (just like his father). We do get so much of our ideals and behaviors from our parents (whether we want to or not). No wonder he was struggling so much!

Yep, this is what I think too. I think the dream we see indicates that DM is doing a lot of thinking about his father, his behavior, the way he treated his wife, the way he treated his son, etc. DM has, I believe, been behaving as his dad behaved when DM was young, because he has no other role model. The man makes all the decisions, the man doesn't have to consult his wife on anything (like paint colors or schedules or anything at all), the woman isn't supposed to work, the man doesn't show affection to the woman now that she's a mother, all of that bizarre behavior on DM's part that drove us crazy. The dream may be the first step in DM's very gradual realization that he doesn't want to be like his father. By the time they get to the castle, after going through the terror of JH being kidnapped, he's coming to terms with things and finally says, "I'm not going to be like my father."

And someone else mentioned Penhale's sudden ability to climb the castle walls while previously he couldn't even get up a ladder (sorry, I can't figure out how to go back to a previous post after starting a reply to one), I think this was to show us that Penhale is changing and growing too. In the previous episode he actually developed a spine and scared the loan sharks off. In E8 he climbs the side of the castle. I also think it's significant that he says to DM & LG, "You carry on," after interrupting (grrr). This could be a message to the viewers that the DM/LG relationship has changed and, in the coming series, they'll at least try to "carry on". Or maybe I'm dreaming. Ack, don't drop that butterfly!

(After I posted this I went back & saw that it was lost-the-plot who originally posted the Penhale comments. Sorry, lost-the-plot, I'm technically challenged)

[acmac]

Originally Posted by simplyred

But is it valid (as opposed to merely expressing a point of view), to apportion a meaning that the writer/composer expressly did not intend?

Yes. Formalism is especially emphatic on this point, but even outside of it, I think the only approach that requires acknowledgment of author intent is the biographical approach. And even then, you could still argue against an author's stated intent, by interpreting the work as a product of the author's subconscious/biases/ignorance -- or whatever.

[Shop Girl]

Originally Posted by mazzieblue

But if you look at the whole fairy tale series arc, I think it does lay this groundwork. S3 was about him as husband material. S4 was about him as father material. I think S5 was the culmination of the two. He concluded in both that he wold be a terrible husband and father, only saving himself from making a stupid mistake about the latter in the last second.

S5 showed him what he stood to lose if he was right, or at least was unwilling to try. By the end, he concluded he was wrong - he could be a could husband and father. (I guess this would almost make S6 an epilogue to close it out?)

I also think we're forgetting the last bit of the trilogy - "and I do love you." It was his reason for the first two statements. I think i can do this because I love you. Unlike my father, I am starting out knowing that I want your happiness and our child's happiness and therefore you will be the center of my life, not a nuisance that gets in the way of me doing what i want.

On another note, I would have liked to see LG make a similar "discovery" about herself and her mother. I am not like my mother - I would never selfishly abandon my family, JH is not like me - feeling abandoned and rejected, and I love my partner - some how I doubt that was said much around her home either. Whatever terrible childhoods both DM and LG had, they are starting out by loving each other which puts them in a entirely different place than either of their parents.

Originally Posted by NewPark

Very well put, Mazzieblue. I especially like the point that S3 is about him grappling with whether he would be a good husband and S4 is about whether he would be a good father. Arguably at the end of S3, he made the "right" decision, because at that time he may NOT have been ready. And he only accidentally got to make the right decision at the end of S4, about being a good father. And S5 was about living out the experience, and by some process, arriving at the breakthrough insight that he did not HAVE to repeat his father's mistakes, and would not, because, as you rightly say, he knows that he does love LG, and that it is OK to make a commitment to her and JH.

So I have hopes that S6 will show us how this works out in practice (haltingly, with many setbacks, I assume) but it is also understandable that the writers have come to a point where they feel they have basically told their story -- which does have a lot resonances with very old and deeply felt themes.

Wow - this is a really good idea about the 3 season story arc. That gives the best explanation yet on why DM decided not to go through with the wedding. And it helps with the slow movement toward Louisa in S5 (even after the "I was wrong" speech at the end of S4) because he still needed S5 to work through whether he could be a good husband. I like this a lot!

BTW mazzieblue, are you from Michigan by chance?

[statesidefan]

Originally Posted by Conniej

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...d=326373736506

Is it true that MC is changing his name to Clunesdale?

[NewPark]

Originally Posted by simplyred

Now that's what I call a proper in-depth interview

I hope Chester's feelings were not hurt by all the talk of Clydesdales.

[acmac]

Originally Posted by mazzieblue

I also think we're forgetting the last bit of the trilogy - "and I do love you." It was his reason for the first two statements. I think i can do this because I love you. Unlike my father, I am starting out knowing that I want your happiness and our child's happiness and therefore you will be the center of my life, not a nuisance that gets in the way of me doing what i want.

On another note, I would have liked to see LG make a similar "discovery" about herself and her mother. I am not like my mother - I would never selfishly abandon my family, JH is not like me - feeling abandoned and rejected, and I love my partner

Seconded. I also wish Louisa had told Martin she loved him, too. It was implied, obviously, and maybe she would have said it if they hadn't been interrupted -- and I have to say, I still enjoy that running gag. It's so easy for that sort of device to get tiresome, so mega kudos to the team for keeping it fresh. I laughed (or maybe snorted) out loud when Penhale butted into the conversation.

The haemophobia and Doc's little clumsy pratfalls were similarly well-handled. I missed them both in S5.

[ReneeBird]

Originally Posted by statesidefan

Is it true that MC is changing his name to Clunesdale?

Originally Posted by NewPark

I hope Chester's feelings were not hurt by all the talk of Clydesdales.

[ReneeBird]

Originally Posted by Biffpup

And someone else mentioned Penhale's sudden ability to climb the castle walls while previously he couldn't even get up a ladder (sorry, I can't figure out how to go back to a previous post after starting a reply to one), I think this was to show us that Penhale is changing and growing too. In the previous episode he actually developed a spine and scared the loan sharks off. In E8 he climbs the side of the castle. I also think it's significant that he says to DM & LG, "You carry on," after interrupting (grrr). This could be a message to the viewers that the DM/LG relationship has changed and, in the coming series, they'll at least try to "carry on". Or maybe I'm dreaming. Ack, don't drop that butterfly!

(After I posted this I went back & saw that it was lost-the-plot who originally posted the Penhale comments. Sorry, lost-the-plot, I'm technically challenged)

Biffpup, very good observations about Penhale! Isn't it amazing how people on this forum can come up with so many different insights about the characters on this wonderful show that we all know and love?!

[mmDerdekea]

Originally Posted by Biffpup

Yep, this is what I think too. I think the dream we see indicates that DM is doing a lot of thinking about his father, his behavior, the way he treated his wife, the way he treated his son, etc. DM has, I believe, been behaving as his dad behaved when DM was young, because he has no other role model. The man makes all the decisions, the man doesn't have to consult his wife on anything (like paint colors or schedules or anything at all), the woman isn't supposed to work, the man doesn't show affection to the woman now that she's a mother, all of that bizarre behavior on DM's part that drove us crazy. The dream may be the first step in DM's very gradual realization that he doesn't want to be like his father. By the time they get to the castle, after going through the terror of JH being kidnapped, he's coming to terms with things and finally says, "I'm not going to be like my father."

And someone else mentioned Penhale's sudden ability to climb the castle walls while previously he couldn't even get up a ladder (sorry, I can't figure out how to go back to a previous post after starting a reply to one), I think this was to show us that Penhale is changing and growing too. In the previous episode he actually developed a spine and scared the loan sharks off. In E8 he climbs the side of the castle. I also think it's significant that he says to DM & LG, "You carry on," after interrupting (grrr). This could be a message to the viewers that the DM/LG relationship has changed and, in the coming series, they'll at least try to "carry on". Or maybe I'm dreaming. Ack, don't drop that butterfly!

(After I posted this I went back & saw that it was lost-the-plot who originally posted the Penhale comments. Sorry, lost-the-plot, I'm technically challenged)

Quick review on Penhale plot--Penhale developed his fears after his kick in the head by a horse, and also his wife divorcing him. We see him trying so hard to get Maggie back and his inability to climb the ladder. When he finally lets her go, totally and completely, realizing he cannot make her happy, then he is able to start conquering those acquired fears and can climb the Castle wall. It was a great psychological journey for Penhale, and he came out ahead.

[mmDerdekea]

Originally Posted by mazzieblue

But if you look at the whole fairy tale series arc, I think it does lay this groundwork. S3 was about him as husband material. S4 was about him as father material. I think S5 was the culmination of the two. He concluded in both that he wold be a terrible husband and father, only saving himself from making a stupid mistake about the latter in the last second.

S5 showed him what he stood to lose if he was right, or at least was unwilling to try. By the end, he concluded he was wrong - he could be a could husband and father. (I guess this would almost make S6 an epilogue to close it out?)

I also think we're forgetting the last bit of the trilogy - "and I do love you." It was his reason for the first two statements. I think i can do this because I love you. Unlike my father, I am starting out knowing that I want your happiness and our child's happiness and therefore you will be the center of my life, not a nuisance that gets in the way of me doing what i want.

On another note, I would have liked to see LG make a similar "discovery" about herself and her mother. I am not like my mother - I would never selfishly abandon my family, JH is not like me - feeling abandoned and rejected, and I love my partner - some how I doubt that was said much around her home either. Whatever terrible childhoods both DM and LG had, they are starting out by loving each other which puts them in a entirely different place than either of their parents.

Great thoughts on the seasons! My only qualm is that DM was by no means unsure of being a father in S4; he WANTED to be a good father to be. He wanted to drive LG to the hospital, be there for check-ups and such, help take are of her, but she refused to allow him to do any of that. So, your concluding paragraph, Mazzieblue is very potent; LG has to realize her relationship blocks as well for them both to thrive.

[NewPark]

Originally Posted by mmDerdekea

Great thoughts on the seasons! My only qualm is that DM was by no means unsure of being a father in S4; he WANTED to be a good father to be. He wanted to drive LG to the hospital, be there for check-ups and such, help take are of her, but she refused to allow him to do any of that. So, your concluding paragraph, Mazzieblue is very potent; LG has to realize her relationship blocks as well for them both to thrive.

Mona, I think it is correct that he wanted to be involved, at some level. So many scenes show us this -- my favorite is his little smile as he listens to the heartbeat. But I think he is also deeply conflicted about this, and unwilling to make a definite commitment, both because he fears LG will reject him and also because of his own fears that he won't make a good father.

I was thinking about the beginning scene of S4, E7, where they are arguing outside the school, and he sputters at LG, who tells him that she didn't think he wanted to be involved "that is an outrageous assumption." But like so many of his outbursts, I think, it turns on a little nub of truth that has gotten in there and really upset him and his shouting is to some degree, a defensive over-reaction. In other words, for someone who really wanted to be involved, he was actually quite passive about being so, and I think this may mark his conflicted state of mind about it.

Outside of that, I guess I am agnostic as to whether there should have been an equivalent scene for Louisa. She has issues, sure, but I don't think the series has been so much about her coming to terms, or her own breakthroughs, as DM's. The ground has been much better prepared for DM;s epiphany. When she leaves DM, or tosses him out, I don't think she's being flaky or acting out of a neurotic conflict -- she just doesn't think she can tolerate his inability to fully commit to her and to be intimate with her. So I see her as less problematic.

But I hope we see her reassure him that she loves him too.