Someone writes the lyrics someone comes up with the music I.e Elton John and Bernie Taupin or Lennon/McCartney Or Morrissey/marr what exactly is the issue there equal artistic input yet some demand it be only one person to be a ''songwriter'' it's frankly an odd attitude to have.

I agree Hav Mor

Only issue is when people try and claim full credit and do not acknowledge the others.

Not a thing in my mind as long as credit is shared equally and the final product sounds good.

Bacarach and David
Rodgers and Hart
Rodgers and Hammerstein
George and Ira Gershwin
Gilbert and Sullivan

Etc etc etc!

Pretty much this. People talk up artists like Adele for songwriting... They usually fail to mention that she had a team of songwriters behind her though. Same applies for the Jessie Js of today.

Nothing wrong with co-writing at all, some of the best songs have been co-written.
I do think where chart pop stars get writing credits when a professional songwriting team have been brought in to help then the actual input from the artist to each song should be stated.

Which it usually alwyays is either by the artist or said collaborator its difficult not to have state as hey will be found out so I see no reason for there to ever be an issue as long as the person has and does acknowledge their co collaborators.

And mr meat and potatoes no To Irgun this into an Adele thread but she herself has acknowledge numerous times and thanked the other people involved blame the reporters for failing to mention it.

The problem is many artists want writing credits for doing next to nothing, wasn't this the case with angels where blobby willliams got writing credits for adding a full stop or something when in fact guy chambers wrote the song but on paper its stated as co-written and i think even with williams name listed first.

I think, typically, people's problem with it is that "co-writing" covers all manner of sins. Someone could have written 99% of the song or less than 1%, and still get the same credit. Then there's buying songwriting credits.

But...that's when you have to engage a bit of common sense. If the "co-writer" in question has not written anything by themselves, and/or has about 2 songwriting credits to their name...the chances are that they probably didn't contribute much.

I placed this in the other tread about ADELE`S Co-writing

There are some good reads on the homepage of american songwriter about writing of someone...
and one and ...
look up on the search box for ADELE (someone...) and Greg Wells (one...)
maybe her songwriter-peers had looked up the reports before deciding to give her the awards.
likewise Ryan Tedder declared his contribution was only 10% (he wrote the first two verses on turnig tables after he reviced 2 song files (rolling + he wont go) from ADELE

Writing is a minefield. It's mostly credited in order of input, alphabetically, or level of input on the final product.

for instance, let's say Rihanna for arguements sake.

Say she wrote 2 lines of a song, and someone else wrote the rest, but Rihanna came up with the melody and sang on the track - it'd be credited with Rihanna first. If it had been the other person that came up with the melody also, then it would be alphabetical.

Mostly it's alphabetical or with Vocalist first. This is the generally accepted worldwide crediting system for songwriters.

As for co-writing, it's perfectly acceptable, and in most cases advised. Nobody has the same mind, and it'd be like working without inspiration. You can write a song, sure, but it won't be as intricate or amazing as it could possibly be if someone else doesn't have any input or spin on it.

Also what some people may not be aware when a song is co-written its very rarely the writers will sit together with a blank bit of paper an come up with a song, professional songwriters often work in pairs and have specific strengths which they then use to help the artist put together a song. Also these songwriters often have a bank of written songs (sometimes no lyrics, just music) that they will use depending on the artist they are working with Rock songwriter Diane Warren is one such pro songwriter who has operated this way.

I agree (coincidentally hate the song) no input but it's widely acknowledge he didnt but as is usually the case but if someone is known songwriter as someone else stated with a dash of common sense you can usually gather even in co writes they probably put in mire than a line or full stop.

And totally agree sometimes the best results are when two people work together point in case Amy winehouse and mark ronson shared the same vision from different angles and created a great album.

And your right Gl like the bulk of 21 was written when the collaborators came in often the case is someone is brought in to further develope and push what had thus far been created.

I think it came out when guy and robbie williams had their bust up, guess it would still have been a secret if that had never happened.
Sometimes artists will use pro co-writers to expand their writing skills which often makes a lot of sense, but when you see an album thats been totally co-written it does send the alarm bells ringing with people wondering how much the artists actually contributed and before you say anything i am not highlighting adele here just talking generally about any artist where this scenario happens.

Nothing. Same as having songs written by other people.

Im sure it happened with someone else there have also been rumours about Beyonces input into her songs.


I think its also the way the credits are written more often than not its separated giving an easier overview the issue comes is when it's bungled together and has to be explained but if someone had previously written songs single handedly it's less alarm bells but if suddenly never having previously written a song then u get suspicious.

There shouldn't be so much emphasis on someone being a 'songwriter' if they are getting someone to hold their hand during the process. Fair enough if they've never called themselves a songwriter, or the artist has just decided to have a hand in creating the music, but for me the issue is when artists and their fans/promoters etc run around calling them(selves) a songwriter as if they create all the music themselves, when in fact there has been at least one other person involved (sometimes heavily) in the process.

For me it's not a problem when the artist themselves acknowledge their co writers

It doesn't bother me at all (and I think most of the general public feel the same way, apart from the indie crowd).

A lot of artists are very open about who writes their songs anyway, which I think shows they're aware that nobody really minds if they don't write all their songs. Like Rita Ora was saying on Radio 1 the other day about how Drake wrote R.I.P. And I've seen interviews where Rihanna says "Skylar Grey wrote Love the Way You Lie for me", or where Christina Aguilera talks about how she got Beautiful from another artist, and so on.

It's generic songs that bother me the most. I don't care who writes them as long as it's good.

what if an artist writes all their own stuff then someone sticks their head round the studio door and says "why don't you try it like this or that" and they say that's a good idea and gives it a go and it's better. Would that count as a co-write and would that make them less of an artist or more?

am gonna second this this! i had little idea that Adele had any help with the writing/lyrics. i'm not a fan but i know a quality album when i hear it, so its a shame when u later learn thats it's not been all down to her. There are many pop singers that its kind've assumed that its more manufactured. I'm naive and thought Adele was 99% pure

true but its through no fault of her own she regularly thanks her co-writers and has acknowledged the part they played on many occasions.

It sets alarm bells ringing more for me when an artist has written a lot of solo material and then calls on co-writers for another album, indicates all their ideas were used up on first album, not a hard and fast rule of course but thats a pretty common situation where people start to doubt an artists input.

Ahh but if you have all the information at hand not so much which is why im not bothered about 21 the writers have stated the ideas and main bulk of the album was there they just further progressed it like changing RITD from ballad to upbeat and her introducing the drum at the beginning.

Which is what i mean about co-writes if someone has something but its just not happening you get someone in adds a new chord changes a few words and great rather than good song is born i would rather that than something just never fully realised.

The issue is simple enough, it's an artistic vision thing.
It's much easier to understand the personal artistic journey when you are listening to solo work. It's easier to appreciate the work of songwriters like Dylan, Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell, John Lennon, Kate Bush, Brian Eno, Springsteen.... when it is largely their own sole writing and it develops and changes through time.

Bands often work through a collaborative process as well and I have no problem with that especially when the writing is predominantly by one or two of the members like U2, Oasis, The Who, REM etc.

Perhaps the modern co-writers approach is more honest about the collaborative nature of song production or, perhaps, it is symptomatic of the artists' anxieties about sales. I feel that artists like Amy Winehouse and Adele do have a personal artistic vision which comes through in their work, collaborative or not.