[Richard46]

Originally Posted by alan29

The simple fact is that there is a huge variety of faith schools. Some are over-subscribed and are in a position to "select." Others are inner-city schools and open their doors to any kid just to keep the numbers up (thats the kind I chose to teach in.) While in other places the local CofE primary is the only school in the village.
Where I live there are too many school places. Parents generally get their first choice and nobody asks any questions.
As to putting the Bible in schools - I would be amazed if the RE departments didn't already possess a bible and has it on the shelf next to all the other examples of religious texts.

Absolutely. The point is however that they all State faith schools are allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion whether they are in a position to exercise that discrimination or not.

I have yet to see a moral or religious defence of that privilege.

[doom&gloom]

I get the feeling that the people who want to get rid of faith schools are also the same people who got rid of grammars which had a disastrous effect on school standards and has seen Britain drop lower and lower in the world education league tables.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by doom&gloom

I get the feeling that the people who want to get rid of faith schools are also the same people who got rid of grammars which had a disastrous effect on school standards and has seen Britain drop lower and lower in the world education league tables.

So may I ask what do you think about those people who simply want state faith schools to abide by the same rules that apply to non-faith schools?

[doom&gloom]

It would be nice if equality meant equally good schools for everyone but it actually means equally poor schools for everyone except a very small elite, that's how socialism/ Marxism works, ask most of Eastern Europe.

[stvn758]

They should ban the Bible and only let the Childrens Bible be printed. Don't recall reading anything about killing gays or cracking babies heads open in the one I had as a kid.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by doom&gloom

It would be nice if equality meant equally good schools for everyone but it actually means equally poor schools for everyone except a very small elite, that's how socialism/ Marxism works, ask most of Eastern Europe.

So you recognise that you do not value equality in the context of allocating children school places. Furthermore in the context of this thread it would seem you support discrimination based on the particular faith of the parents?

Please correct me if I wrong; no problem.

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by Richard46

So if the faith school was markedly more effective should not gaining those benefits be made available without discriminating against any particular groups?

You are arguing that faith schools are better; fine but why should they alone be allowed to exercise discriminatory selection policies?

They take, as a priority, 'looked after' children that other school avoid if possible. Those girls are first in line to get a place. You would take that away from them when they have probably already had rotten lives? They don't have to take them. Their first admission criteria could be children from the area.
What should happen is instead of people saying that faith schools do well because of the admission criteria they should look and see why they actually do well and apply that to all schools. Some children are getting a terrible education. That is the crime. Not the existence of faith schools.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by Starpuss

They take, as a priority, 'looked after' children that other school avoid if possible. Those girls are first in line to get a place. You would take that away from them when they have probably already had rotten lives? They don't have to take them. Their first admission criteria could be children from the area.
What should happen is instead of people saying that faith schools do well because of the admission criteria they should look and see why they actually do well and apply that to all schools. Some children are getting a terrible education. That is the crime. Not the existence of faith schools.

That is fine. So you agree faith schools should not discriminate on the basis of religion I presume?

Edit BTW you originall said

"My daughter goes to a faith school which selects based first on whether the child is in foster care a 'looked after child' and is Catholic"

Interesting that have now ommited to mention the 'Catholic' requirement for priority. Are not all children in care in equal need?

[alan29]

Originally Posted by Richard46

Absolutely. The point is however that they all State faith schools are allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion whether they are in a position to exercise that discrimination or not.

I have yet to see a moral or religious defence of that privilege.

There is none.

[abarthman]

Originally Posted by SULLA

Even non believers would not regard The Bible has a work of fiction.

If they didn't regard it as a work of fiction, then, by definition, wouldn't they be believers?

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by Richard46

That is fine. So you agree faith schools should not discriminate on the basis of religion I presume?

I think faith school's should select on the basis of the faith they follow. I presume you disagree. Fair enough.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by alan29

There is none.

Thank you alan.

[doom&gloom]

Originally Posted by Richard46

So you recognise that you do not value equality in the context of allocating children school places. Furthermore in the context of this thread it would seem you support discrimination based on the particular faith of the parents?

Please correct me if I wrong; no problem.

It should be up to schools which pupils they take, the less interference from government, the better.

[alan29]

Originally Posted by Richard46

Thank you alan.

However, thats the easy bit. Question is, what do you do about it?
How would the state disentangle the the historic property/money issues involved without it looking like a Marxist-style "grab?" My generation will remember endless parish fundraising for their parish school, and many of the buildings and the land belong to organisations within the church. That would keep a large team of lawyers in pink champagne for generations.
And how to ensure that the newly nationalised schools keep their good results/ethos etc.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by Starpuss

I think faith school's should select on the basis of the faith they follow. I presume you disagree. Fair enough.

At last. Of course I disagree that State funded services of any kind should discriminate against those of particular religions and of none. In any other context I suspect you would as well. i.e selective Hospitals; selective Policing. Selective rubbish collection? It is all the same State services should be provided without reference to belief.

Faith Schools and the religions that defend them place themselves in an increasingly indefensible position as the only state funded institutions that continue to advocate discrimination.

I also profoundly disagree with an educational system that tends to encourage the separate education of those from different faiths.

If anyone can offer an argument based on religious morality in defense of these privileges I look forward to hearing it. I note you only offered an opinion not an ethical defense of that position. Still credit to you for at least openly declaring your view; thank you.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by alan29

However, thats the easy bit. Question is, what do you do about it?
How would the state disentangle the the historic property/money issues involved without it looking like a Marxist-style "grab?" My generation will remember endless parish fundraising for their parish school, and many of the buildings and the land belong to organisations within the church. That would keep a large team of lawyers in pink champagne for generations.
And how to ensure that the newly nationalised schools keep their good results/ethos etc.

As i have said many times it is not complicated. Simply and justly require that all schools abide by the same set of rules.

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by stvn758

They should ban the Bible and only let the Childrens Bible be printed. Don't recall reading anything about killing gays or cracking babies heads open in the one I had as a kid.

No, they should scrap the children's Bibles and go for the real deal, not lie about what the contents of the Bible are really like.

Like with the whole Noah deal where God supposedly is the one who saves people, he's actually the one slaughtering nearly every single living organism on the planet. There's no greater period of evil in history, factual or fictional. Other than Hell, though that's usually focused on as future.

Personally I never really read the Bible as a Christian, just some random verses before my confirmation (and at that point I was considering myself an agnostic). So I don't really have experience as a theist reading the Bible, but looking at it now I have to say it's difficult to see how anyone who seriously, critically reads the Bible, can get any sort of kind, loving or just deity out of it.

[alan29]

Originally Posted by Richard46

As i have said many times it is not complicated. Simply and justly require that all schools abide by the same set of rules.

Fair enough, but I still hear the distant sound of lawyers smacking their lips.
What about single sex schools? Or special needs? Shouild schools be able to select on those basis?

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by Lizzy11268

Well I would never burn the Bible. Not because its the bible but because I'm against the burning of books in general.

Of course what you should do is recycle it. But as long as it's not an act of censorship, as long as it's your property, do whatever you like with it.

I like to keep mine around to be able to double check what I can much more quickly search for and locate in the online Bibles.

[alan29]

Originally Posted by KarlSomething

Of course what you should do is recycle it. But as long as it's not an act of censorship, as long as it's your property, do whatever you like with it.

I like to keep mine around to be able to double check what I find in the online Bibles.

Destroying books you disagree with. isn't that just a little bit, well, Islamic?

[peon]

Originally Posted by jackthom

I spent most of my childhood in Catholic schools and I can assure you I was not taught about hell as an abstract concept. The people who threaten hell fire seem to mean it literally.

do you believe in the idea of hell, and the reasons a Catholic might suggest you will end up there? if not, then their particular brand of religious allegory has no meaning to you. would you be offended if i claim, as a devout Jedi, that i believe your actions will lead you to the dark side, and you will spend the next 1000 years in the belly of a sarlacc? no, you think it is ridiculous, and rightly so. sarlaccs don't exist, neither does the dark side.

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by alan29

Destroying books you disagree with. isn't that just a little bit, well, Islamic?

One single book is nothing more than paper and ink, and whatever other materials are in there.

And recycling isn't about destroying, but putting the materials to further use.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Richard46

I do not want to abolish faith schools. I simply ask that they are subject to the same laws concerning discrimination and equality that all other schools have to conform to. i.e. Have to take all comers.

If faith schools are inherently more effective then they will clearly still excel. There should therefore be no problem in removing the special privleges to discriminate that State faith schools currently enjoy.

that would then cause chaos. i don't particularly have a problem with faith based schools but if you do what you advocate, you have maybe half the kids there who aren't going to partake in the faith based stuff, an inherent part of the school identity, and thus taking up spaces for kids who would take part, wouldn't you?

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by peon

do you believe in the idea of hell, and the reasons a Catholic might suggest you will end up there? if not, then their particular brand of religious allegory has no meaning to you. would you be offended if i claim, as a devout Jedi, that i believe your actions will lead you to the dark side, and you will spend the next 1000 years in the belly of a sarlacc? no, you think it is ridiculous, and rightly so. sarlaccs don't exist, neither does the dark side.

The really disgusting thing is that they raise children to believe in it. Although I do find it very reasonable to be offended by someone suggesting that someone else deserves eternal torture for being who they are, regardless of the superstitions involved.

[peon]

Originally Posted by KarlSomething

The really disgusting thing is that they raise children to believe in it. Although I do find it very reasonable to be offended by someone suggesting that someone else deserves eternal torture for being who they are, regardless of the superstitions involved.

but going back to my (admittedly irritating, apologies) Jedi analogy, if i was to wish pain and suffering on somebody because I believed their behaviour was too sith-like, then those reasons are equally as irrelevant to anybody who happens to think my whole belief system is a crock.

you shouldn't care what my belief system says about you or what is going to happen to you because the whole thing (to you) is an utter nonsense anyway.