[2+2=5]

Originally Posted by Richard46

So you recognise that you do not value equality in the context of allocating children school places. Furthermore in the context of this thread it would seem you support discrimination based on the particular faith of the parents?

Please correct me if I wrong; no problem.

Do you think there will ever be a day where there aren't demands imposed against religious people? I mean like special meat, or religious schools, assemblies or holidays.

Don't you think there's a risk of homogenisation such that if we theorised that religious people gave into all these demands, they would be identical to the people demanding the changes?

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by peon

that would then cause chaos. i don't particularly have a problem with faith based schools but if you do what you advocate, you have maybe half the kids there who aren't going to partake in the faith based stuff, an inherent part of the school identity, and thus taking up spaces for kids who would take part, wouldn't you?

So these excellent faith schools could not actually cope with disruptive pupils and you don't think they could even engender respect for their own faith among pupils?

You have made my point for me about their success being based on selection not their ability to disseminate discipline and learning.

[alan29]

Originally Posted by KarlSomething

One single book is nothing more than paper and ink, and whatever other materials are in there.

And recycling isn't about destroying, but putting the materials to further use.

No its about the ideas expressed by the ink on the paper, and people's desire to eradicate what they disagree with. As I said, very Islamic - ask Salmon Rushdie.

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by alan29

No its about the ideas expressed by the ink on the paper, and people's desire to eradicate what they disagree with. As I said, very Islamic - ask Salmon Rushdie.

Those ideas will still exist on the millions or billions of other copies.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by 2+2=5

Do you think there will ever be a day where there aren't demands imposed against religious people? I mean like special meat, or religious schools, assemblies or holidays.

Don't you think there's a risk of homogenisation such that if we theorised that religious people gave into all these demands, they would be identical to the people demanding the changes?

Unless you are arguing for separate education for all religions than I do not see your point.

Edit Of course integrated schools can cope with different religious observances.

[Stiffy78]

Originally Posted by 2+2=5

Do you think there will ever be a day where there aren't demands imposed against religious people? I mean like special meat, or religious schools, assemblies or holidays.

Don't you think there's a risk of homogenisation such that if we theorised that religious people gave into all these demands, they would be identical to the people demanding the changes?

Demands against religious people? Demands for exemptions from laws and rules of the workplace etc are being made by religious people.

I don't think not having such exemptions and special treatment would made people identical. If there weren't different laws for halal/kosher slaughter and non-religious slaughter, your religion didn't enjoy charity status and faith schools didn't exist you'd still be religious and I'd still be atheist, right?

[alan29]

Originally Posted by KarlSomething

Those ideas will still exist on the millions or billions of other copies.

OK, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Richard46

So these excellent faith schools could not actually cope with disruptive pupils and you don't think they could even engender respect for their own faith among pupils?

You have made my point for me about their success being based on selection not their ability to disseminate discipline and learning.

i haven't said anything about disruption, i said that a school whose inherent identity is based around faith would suffer chaos as a result of having to accommodate a large percentage of pupils who (presumably) would want to abstain from faith-centred lessons. i didn't mean the pupils would cause chaos, the structure of the schooling would. and as i said, those places could have gone to pupils from families who wish to incorporate the faith into their education and development. so your sneering and laughing has misfired methinks.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by peon

i haven't said anything about disruption, i said that a school whose inherent identity is based around faith would suffer chaos as a result of having to accommodate a large percentage of pupils who (presumably) would want to abstain from faith-centred lessons. i didn't mean the pupils would cause chaos, the structure of the schooling would. and as i said, those places could have gone to pupils from families who wish to incorporate the faith into their education and development. so your sneering and laughing has misfired methinks.

OK so you think the structure of faith schools would be thrown into chaos if they simply had to do what every other school has to do. i.e. accept any pupil without discrimination.

Actually even I who hold no brief for faith schools think you are grossly underestimating them there. Sorry about the laughing but really; of course they could cope; assuming they are reasonably competant.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Richard46

OK so you think the structure of faith schools would be thrown into chaos if they simply had to do what every other school has to do. i.e. accept any pupil without discrimination.

Actually even I who hold no brief for faith schools think you are grossly underestimating them there. Sorry about the laughing but really; of course they could cope; assuming they are reasonably competant.

yes, because Catholic or Islam based schools for example will have an inherent culture and identity based around their faith surely. it's only natural that a school known to do well will likely have a large number of applicants. if a large percentage of those applying are not of the faith, and the school is obliged to accept them, what does the school do with them? leave them out of lessons, activities and other parts of faith-based culture the school partakes in? make them attend? imagine a load of kids at a predominantly Muslim school who aren't Muslim. it's not fair on anybody, the non-faith kids, and the kids who are there to get such an education. it would just cause more problems than it solved. the only way would be to ban faith schools, but you've said that's not what you would wish. so what's the answer?

[2+2=5]

Originally Posted by Stiffy78

Demands against religious people? Demands for exemptions from laws and rules of the workplace etc are being made by religious people.

I don't think not having such exemptions and special treatment would made people identical. If there weren't different laws for halal/kosher slaughter and non-religious slaughter, your religion didn't enjoy charity status and faith schools didn't exist you'd still be religious and I'd still be atheist, right?

I'm not sure what difference there'd be between us anymore. Because it would be more than that. No more prayer because it blocks roads and so on. No more mosques because some are havens for extremism. I'm talking very theoretically here I know. But I think if every single issue people have with religious people were adhered to, refactored and resolved, there would not be much (if anything left).

EDIT: Basically I'm saying the exemptions religion gets (as perceived by others) are not even the tip of the iceberg of the list of issues people have with religion/religious people.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by peon

yes, because Catholic or Islam based schools for example will have an inherent culture and identity based around their faith surely. it's only natural that a school known to do well will likely have a large number of applicants. if a large percentage of those applying are not of the faith, and the school is obliged to accept them, what does the school do with them? leave them out of lessons, activities and other parts of faith-based culture the school partakes in? make them attend? imagine a load of kids at a predominantly Muslim school who aren't Muslim. it's not fair on anybody, the non-faith kids, and the kids who are there to get such an education. it would just cause more problems than it solved. the only way would be to ban faith schools, but you've said that's not what you would wish. so what's the answer?

The school curriculum (apart from the precise content of RE lessons) is common to all schools. All schools faith or not are required to have collective worship. So pray tell what is this vast body of activities that Faith Schools provide that other schools do not which those of no faith or a different faith would be unable to take part in.

*RE is education (or should be) not worship so no real problem there.

Any decent school should be able to structure a time table appropriate to its pupil, Community (non-faith) schools have to do this, I am sure these excellent faith schools can manage. Do you doubt they are capable of such flexibility and tolerance? If so that is very worrying.

[Stiffy78]

Originally Posted by 2+2=5

I'm not sure what difference there'd be between us anymore. Because it would be more than that. No more prayer because it blocks roads and so on. No more mosques because some are havens for extremism. I'm talking very theoretically here I know. But I think if every single issue people have with religious people were adhered to, refactored and resolved, there would not be much (if anything left).

EDIT: Basically I'm saying the exemptions religion gets (as perceived by others) are not even the tip of the iceberg of the list of issues people have with religion/religious people.

You're certainly going further than anything I would propose.
I would not ban mosques or any other place of worship. I'm not sure why not allowing roads to be blocked should result in prayer being discontinued.

You're probably right that if every single issue anyone has with religion was addressed there would be nothing much left but that wouldn't have to happen for my main issues with religious organisations to disappear. All that has to happen is for them to be required to follow the same rules as everyone else. In such circumstances I expect you and I would still not be 'identical'.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Richard46

The school curriculum (apart from the precise content of RE lessons) is common to all schools. All schools faith or not are required to have collective worship. So pray tell what is this vast body of activities that Faith Schools provide that other schools do not which those of no faith or a different faith would be unable to take part in.

*RE is education (or should be) not worship so no real problem there.

Any decent school should be able to structure a time table appropriate to its pupil, Community (non-faith) schools have to do this, I am sure these excellent faith schools can manage. Do you doubt they are capable of such flexibility and tolerance? If so that is very worrying.

stop with the "pray tell" snarkiness for a start, i'm not trying to be a smartarse with you am I? ta

at my Catholic school there was prayers umpteen times a day, masses to go to, the in depth RE lessons, workshops, religious productions, all the festivals to observe, retreats etc etc all based around the faith. we had one boy join from the fourth school he had been excluded from and our school accepted him. he spent many hours (lucky for him) alone during the above as he was not Catholic, and had no wish to be. that kind of segregation would be on a wide scale, and cause more problems. religious instruction in faith schools isn't the perfunctory observation of the local comp. so what would you do with all those kids who aren't going to take part in about 25% of the school's overall education?

[Stiffy78]

Originally Posted by peon

stop with the "pray tell" snarkiness for a start, i'm not trying to be a smartarse with you am I? ta

at my Catholic school there was prayers umpteen times a day, masses to go to, the in depth RE lessons, workshops, religious productions, all the festivals to observe, retreats etc etc all based around the faith. we had one boy join from the fourth school he had been excluded from and our school accepted him. he spent many hours (lucky for him) alone during the above as he was not Catholic, and had no wish to be. that kind of segregation would be on a wide scale, and cause more problems. religious instruction in faith schools isn't the perfunctory observation of the local comp. so what would you do with all those kids who aren't going to take part in about 25% of the school's overall education?

25%?!?

A quarter of what you were taught at school was based on Catholicism?

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by Stiffy78

25%?!?

A quarter of what you were taught at school was based on Catholicism?

That is extremely scary if true.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Stiffy78

25%?!?

A quarter of what you were taught at school was based on Catholicism?

based on hours dedicated to it, yeah probably, especially in the first couple of years at secondary. it's an engrained part of the school's culture and identity don't forget.

[pickwick]

Originally Posted by 2+2=5

I'm not sure what difference there'd be between us anymore.

Well, one of you would believe in God and one of you wouldn't I tend to think that's the important distinction between a religious person and an atheist!

[Nyota]

Originally Posted by netcurtains

Shakespeare is a much better read.

You can get really cool editions which translate in a non-intrusive way, too. I have a really lovely edition of the complete works.

I wouldn't try to read a bible if you paid me because of how badly laid out it is. Which is a shame, because I'd actually quite like to read it. I'm agnostic but still very interested in religion.

[Hogzilla]

Originally Posted by Starpuss

At the second school I was told on many occasions that the children who misbehaved did so because they come from deprived homes. This was one of many many examples of things that shocked me. I was told not to say much when the kids said '******' as they come from a deprived area where everyone is white. I could go on.

This same 'deprived area' (it's the whole city really) had the faith school.There was zero tolerance for bad behaviour.

Guess which school had the behaviour problems.

I suspect that's probably less to do with faith v. non faith and just the individual schools' ethos. I worked for some years as a supply teacher for the council on a permanent contract, which meant, I tended to get sent into the hell holes where teachers were off on the sick for stress. So I did get to see inside many different schools and being trained at the RC college meant that I got church schools more often than most, as they saw where I was trained, and would choose me over someone else. (Little suspecting I am the antichrist)

And honestly, over a large number of schools, as you get more experience, you'd see that is kind of coincidental. I often liked the ethos of SOME church schools - but equally the ethos of SOME non denominational. It is not so much to do with whether it's 'normal' or 'religious' - just down to individual Heads, I think - as they set the tone.

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by peon

do you believe in the idea of hell, and the reasons a Catholic might suggest you will end up there? if not, then their particular brand of religious allegory has no meaning to you. would you be offended if i claim, as a devout Jedi, that i believe your actions will lead you to the dark side, and you will spend the next 1000 years in the belly of a sarlacc? no, you think it is ridiculous, and rightly so. sarlaccs don't exist, neither does the dark side.

People can still have opinions and attitudes to ideas that don't subscribe to, as they obviously do, otherwise they wouldn't express such attitudes and opinions. I, for instance, have an attitude to the idea of hell, as do many others, despite not believing it, regardless of whether you feel I should or not. That attitude is that it's a horrible idea that's had a detrimental effect on many people. I can obviously feel that without believing hell actually exists.

I can also have an opinion about people who promote such ideas, again, whether or not you think I can. I do, regardless. I have a lowered opinion of anyone who puts forward such an idea, regardless of whether or not I believe in it.

[SULLA]

Originally Posted by Vast_Girth

Oh i think most would say its pretty much complete fiction. There obviously a few bits that are vaguely historical but plenty of bits that are provable not to be true. Most of it is a collection of various myths and legends that existed well before the bible was written, but with the names changed.

Either way its a thoroughly unpleasant book featuring a nasty petty, arrogant, jealous, murdering arsehole of a god and i have to agree with Dawkins that the best way to become an Athiest is read the damn thing,

You do not appear to understand that The Bible is a collection of books, some of which, by their very nature, cannot be classed as fiction.

Originally Posted by abarthman

If they didn't regard it as a work of fiction, then, by definition, wouldn't they be believers?

Certainly not.

[ladymoanalot]

As a child I enjoyed reading the NT. It was certainly better than most of the kids books about. The discussions after reading it in RE were good to. Never been fussed about the OT though, Jesus was much more fun!

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by peon

stop with the "pray tell" snarkiness for a start, i'm not trying to be a smartarse with you am I? ta

at my Catholic school there was prayers umpteen times a day, masses to go to, the in depth RE lessons, workshops, religious productions, all the festivals to observe, retreats etc etc all based around the faith. we had one boy join from the fourth school he had been excluded from and our school accepted him. he spent many hours (lucky for him) alone during the above as he was not Catholic, and had no wish to be. that kind of segregation would be on a wide scale, and cause more problems. religious instruction in faith schools isn't the perfunctory observation of the local comp. so what would you do with all those kids who aren't going to take part in about 25% of the school's overall education?

What you are describing; indeed advocating; is not a faith school it is an exclusive single faith school. Without I hope sounding too snarky I have to wonder what you think all those pupils not of the relevant faith presently do at State Faith schools if so much of the time is spent on religious activities?

Are you suggesting that it does not matter that these pupils are excluded from taking part in 25% of the schools activities just so long as they are a minority and do not disrupt the schools 'structure'?

We frequently read on here from supporters of State Faith Schools that religion does not substantially impact on the mainstream curriculum and that these schools cater for pupils of all faiths. Your evidence and your ideas totally contradict that.

If as you say these non-faith pupils are regularly 'segregated' then clearly the kind of faith school you advocate is not a place for any such pupil. The only logical outcome of your ideas is a school place in a relevant single faith school for every child of every religion. Please do you really think that is possible let alone desirable? If you really are concerned about segregation may I respectfully suggest that you give that scenario some thought.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Richard46

What you are describing; indeed advocating; is not a faith school it is an exclusive single faith school. Without I hope sounding too snarky I have to wonder what you think all those pupils not of the relevant faith presently do at State Faith schools if so much of the time is spent on religious activities?

i thought that's what we were discussing? faith schools? like Catholic Schools etc? that's the point, i don't think there are that many, if any, pupils at these faith schools who are not of that particular faith. secondary schools especially have feeder primary schools who will all be of the same faith.

Originally Posted by Richard46

Are you suggesting that it does not matter that these pupils are excluded from taking part in 25% of the schools activities just so long as they are a minority and do not disrupt the schools 'structure'?

no, i am suggesting that a school whose inherent culture and identity revolves around being a Catholic or Muslim faith school would struggle to accomodate a large percentage of non-faith pupils. what do they do with them at assembly, registration, mass, easter festivals, etc etc. are those non-faith kids expected to attend? wait around whilst the prayers and other stuff is done? will they have to go and sit elsewhere until its over? i don't know if you went to a faith school, your knowledge of them suggests not, but it's an important part of a faith school's curriculum.

like any club, band, organisation, body, group, collective who are all trying to pull in the same direction, once you start forcing that group by law to accept members whose ideals go in the opposite way, then you've got problems.

Originally Posted by Richard46

We frequently read on here from supporters of State Faith Schools that religion does not substantially impact on the mainstream curriculum and that these schools cater for pupils of all faiths. Your evidence and your ideas totally contradict that.

what "ideas"? i'm just telling it like it was at my school. the religous stuff was a big deal, and it permeated the entire syllabus directly or indirectly. what happens to kids from families who don't want their children to have any part of that? your intentions are good, but you don't seem to have any idea of what you're asking for.

Originally Posted by Richard46

If as you say these non-faith pupils are regularly 'segregated' then clearly the kind of faith school you advocate is not a place for any such pupil. The only logical outcome of your ideas is a school place in a relevant single faith school for every child of every religion. Please do you really think that is possible let alone desirable? If you really are concerned about segregation may I respectfully suggest that you give that scenario some thought.

i don't understand this paragraph?