[Hit Em Up Style]

Originally Posted by Auld Snody

I think it is about the right time. Now that the unionists are sure it will be 2014 and are sitting back, the SNP can garner support and go for a snap referendum in 2013 effectively leaving the unionist side foundering

That would be illegal. There can't be any snap about it because outsiders will have to watch over the whole thing to make sure its above board. This isn't some Baltic state.

[tiggertiny]

Originally Posted by Phoebidas

I asked what evidence the OP based his assertion that the people of Scotland will reject becoming an independent nation again.

My reply, granted not from the OP, was a link to this poll. My response was that is a poll of just over 1000. Not a clear indication of how the people of Scotland will vote but a instead the opinion of a very small sample.

How many would you believe is a representative sample?

Can you say how many people have been polled in other polls
like the ones the SNP quote from by contrast?

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by tiggertiny

How many would you believe is a representative sample?

Can you say how many people have been polled in other polls
like the ones the SNP quote from by contrast?

I personally do not hold faith with any polls as all are only a random sample. I prefer to wait for the results of the referendum to see what the people of Scotland want.

[BorderReiver]

Well let's have our own 'iccle sample right here in this thread and let's see what that tells us about the moment? Just for fun.

Do you live in Scotland? Yes/No

Would you vote for Independence? Yes/No

Would you vote for Devo-Max if it was an option? Yes/No

Should there be a Devo-Max question on the referendum? Yes/No

Away you go people.

[cheesy_pasty]

Originally Posted by Phoebidas

I personally do not hold faith with any polls as all are only a random sample. I prefer to wait for the results of the referendum to see what the people of Scotland want.

Although there is no guarantee that the majority of Scotland will even bother to take part.

For such an important decision, I would hope at least 70-80% of the people will take part in this one.
FWIW, all my friends within Scotland (except two) plus family all plan on voting "No".
As someone who has rich Scottish heritage from both sides (basically my mother said I'm more or less 75% Scottish blood)....I think it would be a shame for Scotland to go independent. But it's up to the people.

[tiggertiny]

Originally Posted by BorderReiver

Very small sample, staunchly pro Union newspaper, published by the co-ordinator of the Unionist Campaign . . .

Hmmmm . . . .

What do you think it means?

Are you suggesting YouGuv is corrupt and producing inaccurate results to satisfy the "No" campaign? Or maybe Darling is dishonest?

The sample size is probably the norm but if not what sample size should they have used?

What about polls showing better numbers from the SNPs perspective are they equally dodgy?

[Voynich]

It seems a bit early. They run the risk of people getting tired. Yet being independent is such a huge change and maybe unimaginable to people that they feel they want to get people used to talk about the idea long before the actual vote.

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by cheesy_pasty

Although there is no guarantee that the majority of Scotland will even bother to take part.

For such an important decision, I would hope at least 70-80% of the people will take part in this one.
FWIW, all my friends within Scotland (except two) plus family all plan on voting "No".
As someone who has rich Scottish heritage from both sides (basically my mother said I'm more or less 75% Scottish blood)....I think it would be a shame for Scotland to go independent. But it's up to the people.

The important issue is that the people of Scotland have the right to have their voices heard. If they choose not to use that right, then that is also their right to do so.

As someone who does not have a 'rich Scottish heritage', though I'm not sure what that really means, I will vote yes. As will the vast majority of people I know, even those who just a few years ago were self avowed unionists. This is why we will only know they answer once the referendum vote is counted.

[cheesy_pasty]

Originally Posted by Voynich

It seems a bit early. They run the risk of people getting tired. Yet being independent is such a huge change and maybe unimaginable to people that they feel they want to get people used to talk about the idea long before the actual vote.

Well this is the reason the SNP exists in the first place. This is Salmond's life long dream that he's trying to make come true. The issue is I believe, that Salmond for a start is totally the wrong person to head the party that wants to see an independent Scotland. The man is an excellent manipulator, and is very persuasive in his manner sure. But if I learnt anything from my years north of the border; is that he man is just so damn unlike-able.
This isn't the general consensus sure, but he comes across as arrogant and with a sense of feeling like he's untouchable. This could either make him or break him.
For now I'm going with the latter.

Originally Posted by Phoebidas

The important issue is that the people of Scotland have the right to have their voices heard. If they choose not to use that right, then that is also their right to do so.

As someone who does not have a 'rich Scottish heritage', though I'm not sure what that really means, I will vote yes. As will the vast majority of people I know, even those who just a few years ago were self avowed unionists. This is why we will only know they answer once the referendum vote is counted.

You don't know what that means? Basically my entire family from both my mother and fathers side are basically Scottish. It was by chance that branches of our family moved out of Scotland not so long ago. Some moved to England, others to Canada & Australia.
I'm sure you do know what it means, but I'm basically the end result of a child being born within a family that moved out of Scotland prior.

[tiggertiny]

Originally Posted by Phoebidas

I personally do not hold faith with any polls as all are only a random sample. I prefer to wait for the results of the referendum to see what the people of Scotland want.

If you don't have any faith in polls why comment on the number of people interviewed?

Random sampling is used for very many important issues which you presumably also don't believe are in any way accurate.

If the referendum achieved say a 60% voter turnout would that be sufficient to say the result is O.K. whichever way it went?

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by cheesy_pasty

You don't know what that means? Basically my entire family from both my mother and fathers side are basically Scottish. It was by chance that branches of our family moved out of Scotland not so long ago. Some moved to England, others to Canada & Australia.
I'm sure you do know what it means, but I'm basically the end result of a child being born within a family that moved out of Scotland prior.

I really didn't as in recent times I have seem some very strange definitions of 'Scottish heritage'.

This referendum is about the modern nation of Scotland and the people who live there. Not some 'romantic' notion of an imagined mother land for people who have never lived there or have chosen to move away.

[BorderReiver]

Originally Posted by cheesy_pasty

Well this is the reason the SNP exists in the first place. This is Salmond's life long dream that he's trying to make come true. The issue is I believe, that Salmond for a start is totally the wrong person to head the party that wants to see an independent Scotland. The man is an excellent manipulator, and is very persuasive in his manner sure. But if I learnt anything from my years north of the border; is that he man is just so damn unlike-able.

Well for an unlikeable man he's done exceptionally well to win a landslide majority in a PR election . . . but that's by the by . . .

What is hugely obvious though is that, for all your protestations about how "in tune" with Scotland you are, you seem to think this debate is being fought on personalities. It isn't. Which is why you've got the wrong end of the stick.

You don't know what that means? Basically my entire family from both my mother and fathers side are basically Scottish

But you don't live here, you've not voted in a Scottish Parliamentary election in the last 10 years and you're unfamiliar with what living under an SNP Government has been like for the last 5 years . . .

And people say that Nationalist support is based on sentimentality. Yeesh.

It was by chance that branches of our family moved out of Scotland not so long ago. Some moved to England, others to Canada & Australia.
I'm sure you do know what it means, but I'm basically the end result of a child being born within a family that moved out of Scotland prior.

My famaily history is 50% Russian, this does not make me an authority on what living and working day to day in 2012 Russia like. To beleive as much would exhibit almost as much arrogance as it does craven stupidity.

Tell us. What good does the Union do?

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by tiggertiny

If you don't have any faith in polls why comment on the number of people interviewed?

Random sampling is used for very many important issues which you presumably also don't believe are in any way accurate.

If the referendum achieved say a 60% voter turnout would that be sufficient to say the result is O.K. whichever way it went?

Yes it would be as everyone had the option to vote. Some may choose not to, that is their right to do so.

Opinion polls are nothing more than a chance random sample. I have little faith in a result that just happened to talk to x, y and z on that day.

The difference is people have the opportunity to have a say and not just a chance encounter, email or telephone call.

[BorderReiver]

Originally Posted by tiggertiny

If the referendum achieved say a 60% voter turnout would that be sufficient to say the result is O.K. whichever way it went?

Beleive me, there will be no quicker way to guarantee a Yes Vote in Scotland to try to foist a 1979 style turn-out threshold on thid referendum. It'd be suicide for the Unionists.

[Clarisse76]

Originally Posted by BorderReiver

Well let's have our own 'iccle sample right here in this thread and let's see what that tells us about the moment? Just for fun.

Do you live in Scotland? Yes/No

Would you vote for Independence? Yes/No

Would you vote for Devo-Max if it was an option? Yes/No

Should there be a Devo-Max question on the referendum? Yes/No

Away you go people.

The only referendum that matters is the one we'll be holding in a decade or so's time about whether or not to let you come crawling back in

[BorderReiver]

Originally Posted by Clarisse76

The only referendum that matters is the one we'll be holding in a decade or so's time about whether or not to let you come crawling back in

Oh look, someone who's let the prospect of Scottish Self Determination terrify them so much they've lurched towards bigotry as a response.

I've certainly never, ever seen anything like that before . . .

Don't fuss yersel Clarisse, when we leave you'll be welcome to enjoy your Tory Hegemony, you'll just have to find some other part of the Union to label unfairly as parasites. How about the Welsh, or the Immigrants?

[BorderReiver]

Oh and for the record.

Do you live in Scotland? Yes

Would you vote for Independence? Yes

Would you vote for Devo-Max if it was an option? No

Should there be a Devo-Max question on the referendum? Yes

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by BorderReiver

Oh and for the record.

Do you live in Scotland? Yes

Would you vote for Independence? Yes

Would you vote for Devo-Max if it was an option? No

Should there be a Devo-Max question on the referendum? Yes

Same here

[Hit Em Up Style]

The funny thing is they are so determined to make this a Scottish only thing yet if Salmond really wanted indepence he should let the whole of the UK vote as we all know the English will happily wave bye bye to Scotland if they had the chance. Infact a recent poll showed Scottish indepence was more popular in England and Wales than it was Scotland itself!!

[BorderReiver]

Originally Posted by Hit Em Up Style

The funny thing is they are so determined to make this a Scottish only thing yet if Salmond really wanted indepence he should let the whole of the UK vote as we all know the English will happily wave bye bye to Scotland if they had the chance. Infact a recent poll showed Scottish indepence was more popular in England and Wales than it was Scotland itself!!

You have a distinctly flawed understanding of the remit of the Scottish Parliament.

[Hit Em Up Style]

Originally Posted by BorderReiver

You have a distinctly flawed understanding of the remit of the Scottish Parliament.

I know enough and I know indepence for Scotland is more popular down here than it is up there.

[trevgo]

Originally Posted by Phoebidas

Again, you base this on what evidence?

Every time he opens his smarmy mouth.

[trevgo]

Originally Posted by Hit Em Up Style

I know enough and I know indepence for Scotland is more popular down here than it is up there.

Quite.

I wish we had a vote. I know exactly where my cross would go, And we don't want any of that wishy washy DevoMax nonsense.

[BorderReiver]

Originally Posted by Hit Em Up Style

I know enough and I know indepence for Scotland is more popular down here than it is up there.

You're laboring under the misapprehension that Holyrood could, if it so wished, offer a referendum to the UK as a whole. You also appear to beleive that confining the question on Scotland's constitutional future to the Scottish electorate is an unreasonable stance.

With that in mind, and assuming you're level of understanding of Scottish politics and constitutional matters is a barometer it's hard to say how seriously we can take your testimony about "knowing enough".

It's a relief to know that we're spared any electoral consequence of your "considered opinion" because you don't live "up here".

Thank Christ as they say . . .

[Phoebidas]

Originally Posted by trevgo

Every time he opens his smarmy mouth.

Not a fan then?