We need this civilising facility.

OK I can use the skip forward facility on the HDR but it is not perfect & is a bit of unnecessary hassle.

If it was available to fit between box & satellite lead it would be even better, as it could be a retro-fit, bolt on goody!

David.

I should have included the link:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18206803

Is it more likely to be possible with a software tweak?

David

You obviously have not really thought about it - it is being used in the US to try to "blackmail" channels into reducing the fees Dish TV have to pay them. Introduction of such a system to freesat would see a vast majority of free channels moving to subscription TV. Their major source of income is advertising and if the platform provides a simple way to circumvent watching them then the channels would lose a very large part of their income - who is going to pay for adverts that are not watched? What a brainless suggestion for a freesat feature - do you really want to see freesat shrink and fade away.

Thanks for your attempt at a diagnosis Dr Murgatroyd, happily I still seem to have a couple of braincells rattling each other.

I read, elsewhere, that FOX in US were complaining that Dish Network were using this technology as a bargaining tool to reduce prices paid to Fox.
Dish Network replied that they are just giving customers what the want.
Having seen Fox's owner, Murdoch, offering "selective amnesia" to the Levison enquiry, I sense that most folk would instinctively dis-believe Fox.

I raised the thread because I couldn't find any detail on this Ad Hopping system. Does anyone know if it different & or better than the Humax "skip" button. Specifically does it work automatically by somehow sensing start & finish of adverts, thereby needing no human intervention.

Personally I detest adverts, & am a vigorous user of my "skip" button.

If the new Ad Hop is a stage better than the Humax system then it seems that channels that are over reliant on adverts will need a new business model or simply die.
Perhaps the Conditional Access slot will be needed & viewers could rent channels previously subsidised by advertisers.

I realise that some viewers are more relaxed about being told what to think by advertisers & that they may regret the loss of channels, tough but this is life.

After all the wheel was not dis-invented because some Yeti sized troglodytes complained that it would give unfair competition to their backpacking haulage business.

In my Googling for info on this "new" system I chanced up this Yankee forum. (WARNING avoid looking at it in the presence of children or your maiden aunt.)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=145147121

However I will quote one American poster, within it, who sums it all up rather neatly, by quoting a science fiction writer.

"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law.
~Robert Heinlein"

David

In a US appeals court decision related to a copyright dispute.
The danger is that if devices with commercial skipping were to be allowed, as DaveMurgatroyd says, we may see a vast majority of free channels moving to subscription TV. We are also likely to see a more aggressive type of product placement and advertisements in the form of scrolling banners or PIP (already used in some countries).
Currently by using a digital watermark a broadcast flag can be set preventing fast forwarding past commercials. Many VOD services prevent ad skipping.

An interesting quote, any idea when that judgement fluttered down? There was a legal fracas in 1999, if Dish Network didn't think that they had an answer that trumped the previous judgement, then they would not be proceeding as they are.
Also it's Yankee, is there any precedent that might be upheld in UK.

The judgement reads to me as if it might prevent Dish Network from selling a box with the system pre-installed.
However if a freelance programme on a USB stick (or a PC or a smart TV that allowed custom settings) could do the business it might be impossible to police end consumers who chose to use it.

Having a court case might be a very cost effective way of advertise that a system, that customers will crave, does actually exist. Following the court loss a company totally unconnected to Dish Network () would start selling from say Cuba.

I still don't know what form the ad hopping system takes, but I suspect it is soft or firm-ware.

David

Think about what sources of income there are for channels other than advertising/sponsorship or subscription. Do you know of any free channels other than the BBC that are not advert funded other than the state and religion funded propaganda channels?

If such a device became available on freesat boxes then I could see the FTA channels dropping freesat and going FTV on Sky who would almost certainly not allow such technology.

I am no expert on American TV but I thought their advertising was done by product placement or a large part of it which stops viewers from fast forwarding or skipping the ads.

Like I said, I’m no expert and probably got it wrong.

Dave,
Ad Hopping is like a new "wheel". You, I, Sky & freesat are not going to be able to dis-invent it, just because there are a few disadvantages.
The BBC is funded largely by subscription, the "licence fee". To me, & I suspect very many others, it is remarkable value for £145.5/year. Sky fees reach hundreds a year more. & people have seemingly paid that.

I expect that various channels that currently rely on adverts will consort to provide a variety of packages that we may buy into, via the conditional access slot, depending on our preferences.

It may wean more viewers off Sky FTV, onto the consequently enhanced freesat for 2 good reasons:-
1- People actually dislike adverts enough to pay say an extra licence fee i.e. an extra £12 a month to avoid ads.
2- The Murdoch saga has so severely angered many people that Sky is overdue a hammering. Think phone hacking, interfering with national politics, bribing police, civil servants & politicians. Even blackmail as a normal working practice seemed to have been drawn out of R Murdoch in a moment when he forgot to use his selective amnesia.

That's an interesting work in progress.

David

Hi Skip,
I think you are correct in USA but I thought product placement was banned in UK.

Anyway product placement would makr me skip channels.

David

If a channel is free then I'd be happy for this device to not work. On a pay channel I'd love it. Nothing worse than having to fork hundreds of pounds a year to watch something only to find that you have to suffer ads on top.

Product Placement is of course now used in the UK, at this stage it seems far more discreet and regulated than in the States though.

I hate adverts as much as the next person and often timeshift commercial programmes to avoid them. When I first heard about this story I thought the STB sounded great but in practice I can see it causing a lot of problems.

Whizzing through ad's on a recording isn't that inconvenient, I think it's best left at that

Several years ago I had a vcr with ad skipping. I can't remember the make. It worked by detecting the short burst of black level between the programme and the ads. It went into fast forward. It was unreliable and didn't seem to catch on. I use the skip function on my Humax and that IS reliable.

It has been tried before but not very reliably on a VCR as posted above. IIRC its failure was doewn to the broadcasters altering the way the signalled advert breaks. All that anew device like this will do is encourage any broadcasters that still decide to broadcast on platforms with devoices that are capable of this to introduce sponsorship and adverts within the programming in the way it was done in the US - and here is a message from our sponsor (without cutting to an advert break which you can at least FF through. Do you really think ITV as one of the major partners in freesat is going to sit there and allow the introduction of any freesat device with this built in and I am fairly sure that any STB manufacturer could alter the firmware on their products to stop third party software rather than risk the loss of their license to produce freesat products.

I imagine that they use different methods on different channels even now. That doesn't seem to have inconvenienced Dish Network



I think, but may be wrong, that that is not legal in UK, it might anyway make viewers think that this channel is not for me


Dish Network doesn't use freesat boxes.
They pay channel makers to broadcast & they charge subscriptions to users. There is no reason why they or another could supply the UK with similar services.
If Dish Net found ad hating customers in the US I believe that a similar customer demand is likely in UK.
ITV might see advantages in a regular subs income than a fickle advertising revenue.

Dave, you just might be right or I might be right, I've a feeling we wont have to wait long to find out.

Always remember-- "Life is hard then you die!"

David

This is the complaint lodged by Dish Network:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sit..._Complaint.pdf

You can see that their 'Auto Hop' system (available on their 'Hopper' triple tuner HD PVRs) only works for next-day (or later) viewing of (most but not all) programmes recorded with their 'PrimeTime Anytime (PTAT)' feature. Basically PTAT automatically records 3 hours of primetime HD TV for all 4 major networks between 8 and 11 pm each and every night (the box has a 2TB HDD*). These recordings are retained on an 8 day cycle. Auto Hop doesn't work on Same-Day, Time Shifted or Buffered Recordings. Also the consumer has to activate Auto Hop (thereby switching any potential legal responsibility to themselves) for each and every programme they watch. They may still watch the adverts should they wish to.

* Apparently the 2 TB HDD is partitioned into 1 TB of normal User storage, 500 GB of 'PrimeTime' storage and 500 GB of Dish Network storage. If you want to retain a programme longer than 8 days then you must transfer it from PrimeTime storage to the User storage area before it is deleted however as long as PTAT is enabled you can still use Auto Hop on it.

For an explanation on how Auto Hop works in practice see:
http://press.dishnetwork.com/getatta...ion=attachment

Just found this on CNN's website:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/25/te...ads/index.html

I wonder if the DN system works on HD broadcast as well.?

I say that because I record CSI for the OH on Channel 5 SD as the HD version is not available to us so I run the programme through FreeVideoConverter and edit out all the ads which takes me about 4 minutes but saves 15 plus minutes of advert time.

I would prefer the high quality of HD with the ads but as ITV and CH5 are content with denying us the HD versions of their Freeview / Freesat channels I have no qualms of avoiding their ads.

I know I can skip or FF through ads on the HD channels but in many cases I still see a lot of them due to me or the OH going for a P or to get a drink while the other watches the ads and pulses the programme until were all sitting comfortable again. That is of course on programmes that are worthy of waiting that seem to be less and less so these days.

I looked for such info but failed.

To summarise:-
1--In the US, it only works on programs that are at least a day old.

2--It MUST be turned on by the end consumer. This keeps hands clean at Dish Network. The end consumer can switch it off & on at will.

3--It almost certainly is a software mod that is patented.

4--Such software should be for-hire, to networks or consumers, outside Dish Network's US domain.

5--Same or similar software might be imported to other box makes.

I think program makers are going to have to live with it or die without it.
David

According to the Dish Network website this system is designed specifically for recording HD channels i.e. they make no mention of recording SD channels. Perhaps they assume that if you have HD available you wouldn't want to record anything in a lower quality no matter whether the content was worth the extra disk space or not.

We are talking about a 2TB drive !

I fitted a 2TB drive to my HDR & in 18 months I tried to fill it & never got beyond 27%.

Also the DN discs seem to be automatically wiped of any program older than 8 days. So its not all consumer friendly !
David

It also doesn't seem to work on all PTAT programmes, no idea why though.

But only 500 GB of the 2 TB on the Hopper is assigned to PTAT. I agree though that it is still more than adequate for about 150 hours of HD recordings.

I'm inclined to think that there are local to USA quirks arising from contractual arrangement with content providers, who might want to sell repeats, hence the only 8 day availability.
Its quite a complicated set up.
David