There was nothing wrong with the Old Tom, it was totally ridiculous to have him replaced. Listeners build up a mental picture of a character which suits the voice, now when I hear Tom I think he must have had a head transplant!!

Re Peggy's attitude - as everyone seemed to like Rob and his Mother, it would be churlish to suddenly start hating them particularly as, at the moment, they are unaware of the full story. Peggy is just showing her concern albeit slightly misplaced in this instance.

Glad we are in agreement about the sublime June Spencer.

I did have a bit of a shock when she was telling Pat and Tony that it could be a murder charge against Helen. Even the old bag that is Peggy had concern for her.

Yes I agree and I actually found Pat and Tony's response quite ridiculous and childish, 'well at least he's being looked after in hospital' unlike their darling Helen who did actually stab him by the way and several times by the sound of it. It seems to me that Peggy is the only one being rational and sensible here. She isn't on Rob's side as such she has just managed to find out more information about his state of health and it must be shocking to find out someone you like and is a member of the family has just been stabbed to near death by your granddaughter.

Pat who couldn't stand Rob and then fell in love with him for no real good reason is now suddenly 100% in the camp that Rob is to blame for being stabbed. If only she just remained circumspect about Rob and about Helen's relationship with him rather than always diving in and letting all know her extreme changes in opinion about him, she might just have caught on to Helen's distress and been there for her more.

I must say I actually find it odd that Helen and Pat and Tony and Kirsty all seem to think that Helen shouldn't be charged at all. Clearly she has to be charged though her defense may lead to her being let off or having a reduced verdict / sentence. Imagine if Rob had stabbed Helen I know they are completely on her side but their naivety here seems more like stupidity and false and ridiculous feelings about their own superiority. I find it impossible to feel sorry for them as I really don't like any of them

Totally agree sam. I posted almost the same but before I read yours. Must remember to read the thread before barging in here

I was actually pleasantly surprised at how open Susan was about having being banged up. She told Peggy that getting letters was what she looked forward to the most. Mind she did point out that she wasn't in for attempted murder However she seemed very upbeat about it all and as ever provided the humour at a very inappropriate moment.

Yeah I think that's what made me bark at my radio - her inappropriate tone. Doesn't matter what she believes or whose 'side' she's on, there had been a very serious incident involving a stabbing and there she was breezy and brazen, treating it all as some gossip bonanza.

Goodness, you're right! I'd forgotten all about Janet Fisher, and that particular example of St Shula's sanctimonious twattery.

Perhaps Shula is no more than Peggy Bloody Woolley in waiting.

Thanks for reminding me.

I rediscovered the Archers a few years ago, and posted at the time how poor the acting of Pip was, almost like a child. Since the change, things are conserably better. Some of the acting is stupendous. The youngsters are fine, but I do agree they can sound similar.

I think so too.


It was Old Tom who jilted Kirsty, then he went away and had a voice transplant and came back as New Tom (with his real dad playing his pretend dad!)

I thought it was Shula who stopped going to St Stephen's then

I think loose-lipped Susan should have her mouth super-glued shut sometimes.

I'm probably in a minority - I think she's awful. She always delivers her lines as if she's startled about something. No change of expression no matter what she's talking about.

I wonder if sanctamonious twattery is part of the character spec? You are right about her though. When she was younger I liked her character. Back in the day when she was dating Nigel and friends with Caroline and they were young and 'wild' (by Archer's standards) she was one of my favourites.

Sory about my error too. I meant she objected to Usha marrying Alan. Doh! The weird thing was that as I wrote that I said Dr Locke because I couldn't remember his first name. Seems my subconcsious did even if I thought I coudln't remember it.

So he did, you're right. Real Tom's disappearance was to make way for New Tom, engineered in the hope we would forget what he used to sound like.

I'm still furious about that.

I am glad I am not the only one that bears grudges. I still haven't forgiven them for killing off Nigel. I don't suppose I ever will. I also never really took to the new Hayley. I know Jasper Carrot's daughter who was the first Hayley chose to go owning to other commitments but the replacement never quite did it for me.

Can you remind me what Shula saw re Rob and lied about? I read something about it on here.

I can't remember the details myself but it was someting to do with the hunt. I think she saw Rob punch a hunt saboteur who took a photograph of a fox being killed. Rob told Shula that the saboteur initiated the fight and although Shula saw it she was persuaded to back up Rob's story.

That's sounds like what happend. Will she confess to having seen it happen?

Hopefully all these little fragments will come out now. I still want to know what happened with the culvert.

And get a criminal record for perverting the course of justice having lied to the police about it. I should cocoa!

When push comes to shove Shula has shown time and again she is a moral coward.

A criminal record for lying in-exchange for rescuing Helen from jail? Sounds like a great deal to me! I'm sorry, it's probably that I find the concept of lying over anything important really difficult to fathom. There is right and there is wrong and I would torture myself over such a morally significant lie much too much to hide it for a very long-time. I realise I'm probably unrepresentative, but I do feel like I need to confess to relatively small things. Perhaps it's just upbringing, I don't know....

Quite, and like most Brookfield Archers a strong streak of self-preservation and haughty disregard for others.

I'd have no qualms at all in lying through my teeth if:
- I knew 100% that my lie would do a profound good
- I knew there was no possibility of being found out

I listened to the Omnibus this morning (which took huge self restraint this week - but my Sunday morning radio schedule is how I get my housework done). I do agree with the BIB. It is bizarre isn't it?

Even if there was absolutley clear evidence that Helen had acted in self defence. Say for example Kirsty had been there and witnessed Rob putting the knife in Helen's hands and demanding she kill herself, before lunging towards Henry, there would still be a legal process.

Its as if Pat et al think that in these circumstances the police and the CPS are empowered to say. "There, there now Helen, its not your fault you just run along back to your normal life and we will say no more about it. "

How on earth do these numpties think we (society) establish the facts and reach a conclusion that in a particular set of circumstances an act of violence was justified? Do they really think that the investigation shoudl cease because someone's mum says so?

Its as if they have no conception of what she has done, Helen included.

It's about 'face' isn't it? Preserving the outside world's opinion of you despite what you know to be right and proper or what you know to be reality. Peggy conducts herself in a way she deems to be proper until she has more information because she's ashamed and embarrassed by her flaky granddaughter and embarrassed by the attention it will garner to her. Shula doesn't want to be known as a liar or a woman who doesn't think that a man who is violent in-general might be violent towards her cousin and her cousin's young child. The village doesn't wish to know that it harboured a wife beater, controller and rapist whilst ignoring the condition and conduct of the victim and would rather maintain its own voluntary ignorance and its sense of 'community' so long as you appear to fit the required criterion.

I've always wondered whether Pat sort of did the same thing. Maybe she willed herself into loving Rob and played an inner game of saying something really positive and then secretly, in the back of her head being less convinced and now its come back to bite her on the backside. The difference between what one says for social appropriateness or because it's your family and you make it work and what you truly feel in your heart could be massive. It's the only way I can reconcile the Pat I believed I had become acquainted with over the about six months when I started listening as I worked in my lonely office on the other-side of the building from everybody else, before this arc began. It makes a certain amount of a sense, a case of "I have to make this work for Helen", "at least she's settled now, I'm sure there's lots of good qualities I haven't seen yet" and "he really gets on with Henry" - which for any grandmother would be key.

As I have Asperger's (albeit undiagnosed until adulthood), I found lying a weird concept as a child and had to acquire it. There was truth and there was falsehood and I was encouraged to 'make-believe' so that I could understand the concept and learn to 'read' lies to protect myself and even lie myself when it was absolutely necessary to do so. I can lie, but only in circumstances where a utilitarian assessment concludes that the maximum benefit comes from a lie rather than harm from the truth, 'white lies' versus 'black lies' as my Nana put it when I was little. It's a premeditated act in other-words. It's a bit like 'make-believe' even now. I find the concept of 'face' or reputation even more confusing that telling whether a lie is necessary rather than appropriate or whether somebody is lying to me, and am probably more sensitive to it than maybe other people are.

The storyline has appealed to me on an actual truth versus the appearance of it level as well. You almost wish it was a novel to see the inner-lives of the characters....