[Waldy]

Is there a difference between BBC and ITV HD broadcast quality? The first Euro game on BBC did not look like it was in HD where the ITV game last night was much clearer. You could see straight away that it was HD with the individual blades of grass visible.

[Winston_1]

Originally Posted by Waldy

Is there a difference between BBC and ITV HD broadcast quality? The first Euro game on BBC did not look like it was in HD where the ITV game last night was much clearer. You could see straight away that it was HD with the individual blades of grass visible.

Dunno. The programmes are better on BBC though which is probably more important.

[AndrewLG]

Originally Posted by Waldy

You could see straight away that it was HD with the individual blades of grass visible.

Probably means the cameraman had taken advantage of the hospitality and fallen over!

Seriously, I find the BBC usually very good but lots of things can affect quality. For one I don't suppose they were filming it so a lot would depend on the source feed .

Their nature, science and live programs are usually excellent.

[AJRevitt]

BBC1 HD on Freeview seems much better than Freesat, probably due to the recent increased resolution on the former.

[DragonQ]

BBC One HD and BBC HD are 1920x1080 on satellite too (and with a higher bit-rate than their Freeview counterparts).

[AJRevitt]

Thanks for that, must be my eyes then.

[lbear]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

BBC One HD and BBC HD are 1920x1080 on satellite too (and with a higher bit-rate than their Freeview counterparts).

The difference is that the satellite service is 1080i/50 whereas the Freeview HD service dynamically changes between that and 1080p/25. This provides the idea compromise between detailed static shots and non-jerky movement. The perception is therefore of better detail on Freeview. In addition crude bit rate is irrelevant as that also changes according to the demands of the different streams on the mux.

[DragonQ]

Yes, I said the exact same thing in another thread - the progressive/interlaced changing probably makes up for the lower bit-rate.

[Mickey_T]

Originally Posted by lbear

The difference is that the satellite service is 1080i/50 whereas the Freeview HD service dynamically changes between that and 1080p/25. This provides the idea compromise between detailed static shots and non-jerky movement. The perception is therefore of better detail on Freeview. In addition crude bit rate is irrelevant as that also changes according to the demands of the different streams on the mux.

It all seems a bit of a waste of time to me as I'd say the majority will be using a set top box which will usually be set to output in only one resolution anyway.

[DragonQ]

Pretty sure Freeview HD boxes have to be able to output 1080p/50 so the switching works seamlessly (although there were some issues with some TVs when they first started the switching).

[Mickey_T]

They might be able to output 1080p, but I've not come any that switch automatically yet, although there may be some.

My Humax for example requires the user to use one resolution for all output. You can manually switch, but that is of little use for 1080i/p switches during a programme.

[AndrewLG]

Originally Posted by Mickey_T

They might be able to output 1080p, but I've not come any that switch automatically yet, although there may be some.

My Humax for example requires the user to use one resolution for all output. You can manually switch, but that is of little use for 1080i/p switches during a programme.

I thought most HD digital boxes would let you output at source resolution so the TV could do the upscaling (or down) if required?

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by Mickey_T

They might be able to output 1080p, but I've not come any that switch automatically yet, although there may be some.

My Humax for example requires the user to use one resolution for all output. You can manually switch, but that is of little use for 1080i/p switches during a programme.

If it outputs 1080p/50 there is no need for any switching to happen. 1080i/25 material is deinterlaced by the box, 1080p/25 is frame-doubled to 1080p/50. Done.

I guess it's possible for boxes to seamlessly switch between 1080i/25 and 1080p/25 too but I can't imagine TVs would be compatible with this. Most of them take several seconds to change resolutions or refresh rates.

[Mickey_T]

My Sony tv's internal tuner switches resolutions between 1080i/50 and 1080p/25 seamlessly and also does 576i too on the fly.

The problem with having Freeview boxes set at 1080p is that all the other channels get upscaled, and with so many 544x576 broadcasts you end up with an extremely soft picture which loses detail compared to letting the tv do the scaling.

[SimonBlackham]

Originally Posted by Mickey_T

It all seems a bit of a waste of time to me as I'd say the majority will be using a set top box which will usually be set to output in only one resolution anyway.

The DVB standard is about how the boxes convert the broadcast transport stream (TS) into the pictures on the screen and they have a minimum defined set of facilities to do this.
It for instance includes 1080i50 and 1080p25 but not 1080p50. The broadcasters will try to send the maximum amount of picture information in the minimum space (or pragmatically the space they have) - how the TS is generated is irrelevant as long as the 'original' video can be rebuilt by the receiver.
The resolution of what the set top box outputs is not dependent on what it receives - the set top box does the conversion from what it receives and some do it better than others. Your TV may convert 1080i50 to 1080p50 better than your box (if only because it 'knows' its own display resolution) - so getting the box to output 1080p50 may give you worse pictures than outputting 1080i50 to the TV (as you MickeyT observed).

Our (SD) BT vision box has an excellent upscaler and we have it set to 1080i50 rather than standard 576i widescreen.

This jiggery pokery with broadcast resolutions and parameters is to try and squeeze the best quality into the available bandwidth and should not affect the receiver.

[gomezz]

Originally Posted by AndrewLG

I thought most HD digital boxes would let you output at source resolution so the TV could do the upscaling (or down) if required?

While I agree with this and is what I have my boxes set to do I think the assertion is that most people don't either out of choice or ignorance that it is possible (and preferable IMHO).

[AndrewLG]

Originally Posted by gomezz

While I agree with this and is what I have my boxes set to do I think the assertion is that most people don't either out of choice or ignorance that it is possible (and preferable IMHO).

I think that some boxes are better than some TV's and visa versa and some even at certain resolutions AFAIK.

I suppose it mainly depends on the chips used and the supporting firmware?

[lbear]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Yes, I said the exact same thing in another thread - the progressive/interlaced changing probably makes up for the lower bit-rate.

I was actually taking it a bit further than that. The stat muxing that is used with FreeviewHD makes theoretical bit rates irrelevant as the actual bit rate varies enormously.

[Winston_1]

Originally Posted by Mickey_T

My Sony tv's internal tuner switches resolutions between 1080i/50 and 1080p/25 seamlessly and also does 576i too on the fly.

Absolute rubbish. The tuner tunes in the UHF channel.

The upscaling is done in other parts of the TV.

[Mickey_T]

Oh get over yourself you pedantic idiot, you know what I mean.

[SimonBlackham]

Originally Posted by Mickey_T

Oh get over yourself you pedantic idiot, you know what I mean.

My interpretation of first part of your statement is that your Sony TV does not glitch when the broadcast channel switches mode from 1080i50 to 1080p25.
I haven't a clue what you mean by the second part about 576i...

[DragonQ]

Considering all 1080p TVs are always running at 1080p/50 (or 1080p/24 or 1080p/60), seamless switching with an internal tuner isn't surprising. With a box you just have two options - either the decoder box does the upscaling and/or deinterlacing, or the TV does. Which one looks better depends on your equipment.

[Mickey_T]

Originally Posted by SimonBlackham

My interpretation of first part of your statement is that your Sony TV does not glitch when the broadcast channel switches mode from 1080i50 to 1080p25.
I haven't a clue what you mean by the second part about 576i...

Yes that's right, the tv switches between 1080i/p without any noticably glitching. I still don't really see the point though, as viewing at normal distances makes any improvement a moot point.
576i switches instantly too (obviously only when you change a channel) without the usual second or two blackout which you usually get from a box switching from 1080i/p to 576i or vice versa. Hope that's a bit clearer.

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Considering all 1080p TVs are always running at 1080p/50 (or 1080p/24 or 1080p/60), seamless switching with an internal tuner isn't surprising. With a box you just have two options - either the decoder box does the upscaling and/or deinterlacing, or the TV does. Which one looks better depends on your equipment.

I wish I could find a box that allows the tv to do the upscaling but also has recording ability. My Humax doesn't allow auto resolution switching and you've got to put up with the box upscaling everything itself unless you manually switch the output resolution.

[gomezz]

Both my Digital Stream Freeview HD PVR and my Humax Freesat HDR PVR have a native / auto video format setting.

[AngusMast]

My Icecrypt has an Auto format setting but it results in 3 or 4 seconds of blank screen while the TV sorts itself out switching between SD and HD, and you get poorer quality OSD at 576, so it's not really a sensible option. There's no difference in upscaling worth caring about.