As my earlier post in the thread shows, I think this is well plotted and have no problem with the Cybermen's plan, as I will repeat I think it is clinical and clever. It sets up the whole Tomb angle of the story and subsequent flow of the story of the Cybermen being a evolving threat and the need by the Doctor and Co. of stopping them getting out. It also depends upon what you are comparing too, there are lots of ill thought out plans and plots in this era of the program and still are today in the last few new series even. Nevertheless, for me and perfectly acceptable setup or starting point to get into the story.
The Tomb Of The Cybermen
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Originally Posted by doublefour:
“As my earlier post in the thread shows, I think this is well plotted and have no problem with the Cybermen's plan, as I will repeat I think it is clinical and clever. It sets up the whole Tomb angle of the story and subsequent flow of the story of the Cybermen being a evolving threat and the need by the Doctor and Co. of stopping them getting out. It also depends upon what you are comparing too, there are lots of ill thought out plans and plots in this era of the program and still are today in the last few new series even. Nevertheless, for me and perfectly acceptable setup or starting point to get into the story.”
“As my earlier post in the thread shows, I think this is well plotted and have no problem with the Cybermen's plan, as I will repeat I think it is clinical and clever. It sets up the whole Tomb angle of the story and subsequent flow of the story of the Cybermen being a evolving threat and the need by the Doctor and Co. of stopping them getting out. It also depends upon what you are comparing too, there are lots of ill thought out plans and plots in this era of the program and still are today in the last few new series even. Nevertheless, for me and perfectly acceptable setup or starting point to get into the story.”
As it stands the TV plot of Tomb works rather well, delivering shocks and thrills evenly throughout. So far so good.
But, as ever, the Cyberplan is woefully stupid.
The Cybermen, for reasons best known to themselves, have gone into hibernation on a remote uncharted planet.
To be woken again they are relying on -
a) someone or something finding the right planet, finding the buried entrance to the Tombs and getting through the electrified doors.
b) whoever it is being clever enough to work out all the logic puzzles and overcome the traps. The human party, even super logician Klieg, can't seem to manage this and it takes the Doctor's huge intellect to solve the puzzles.
c) then the Cybermen, having lured some incredibly clever beings to their tombs, assume that these people will be stupid enough to wake the Cybermen so the Cybs can then make the incredibly clever beings who woke them into more Cybermen, who don't require intelligence or clever individual thought.
Add to this the dopey problem that the Cybs need recharging pretty darned quickly but their recharging facility is located up top, away from the Tombs themselves and you can see why I don't think that the Cybermen have really thought this whole business through terribly well.
And, the whole adventure could have been avoided if the Doctor hadn't opened the hatch. What was he playing at?
Originally Posted by adams66:
“As it stands the TV plot of Tomb works rather well, delivering shocks and thrills evenly throughout. So far so good.
But, as ever, the Cyberplan is woefully stupid.
The Cybermen, for reasons best known to themselves, have gone into hibernation on a remote uncharted planet.
To be woken again they are relying on -
a) someone or something finding the right planet, finding the buried entrance to the Tombs and getting through the electrified doors.
b) whoever it is being clever enough to work out all the logic puzzles and overcome the traps. The human party, even super logician Klieg, can't seem to manage this and it takes the Doctor's huge intellect to solve the puzzles.
c) then the Cybermen, having lured some incredibly clever beings to their tombs, assume that these people will be stupid enough to wake the Cybermen so the Cybs can then make the incredibly clever beings who woke them into more Cybermen, who don't require intelligence or clever individual thought.”
“As it stands the TV plot of Tomb works rather well, delivering shocks and thrills evenly throughout. So far so good.
But, as ever, the Cyberplan is woefully stupid.
The Cybermen, for reasons best known to themselves, have gone into hibernation on a remote uncharted planet.
To be woken again they are relying on -
a) someone or something finding the right planet, finding the buried entrance to the Tombs and getting through the electrified doors.
b) whoever it is being clever enough to work out all the logic puzzles and overcome the traps. The human party, even super logician Klieg, can't seem to manage this and it takes the Doctor's huge intellect to solve the puzzles.
c) then the Cybermen, having lured some incredibly clever beings to their tombs, assume that these people will be stupid enough to wake the Cybermen so the Cybs can then make the incredibly clever beings who woke them into more Cybermen, who don't require intelligence or clever individual thought.”
Exactly yes Adams. you've summed up perfectly why although Tomb is hugely entertaining ( yes I do like it) personally I cant quite class the story as a 'classic.' which is what it was seen as for years. Thinking about it I like the Tenth Planet better as a Cyber-men plot.
.
Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“I don't agree with a lot of your points, I still think this is on of the best Cybermen stories!
As for Telos, always thought this was their alternate home planet after Mondas was destroyed.
As for Victoria, I disagree she was weak in this story. I think she was probably more assertive than in later stories and as I said at the top, sh certainly gave some stick to a lot of the guest male characters!
”
“I don't agree with a lot of your points, I still think this is on of the best Cybermen stories!
As for Telos, always thought this was their alternate home planet after Mondas was destroyed.
As for Victoria, I disagree she was weak in this story. I think she was probably more assertive than in later stories and as I said at the top, sh certainly gave some stick to a lot of the guest male characters!
”
Hi Daveyboy I'm sorry that we seem to disagree on this story but I don't dislike Tomb, far from it,but I think the story suggests certain prejudices though, around race and gender, which seem a bit unpalatable in these modern times so it doesn't feel right to describe it as a 'classic'. It doesn't score top marks for me in both plot logic and characterisation ( cue discussion on what constitutes a classic.... what have I started???) .
Given that this story occurs in the future some of the characters seem less enlightened than the time and to have opinions more applicable to the Victorian era. The flaws in these characters whilst they don't impede the action are there in how they behave.
of course everyone remembers the mystery and the action sequences and that is an important part too and it is a great yarn in that respect.
Originally Posted by Lady of Traken:
“Exactly yes Adams. you've summed up perfectly why although Tomb is hugely entertaining ( yes I do like it) personally I cant quite class the story as a 'classic.' which is what it was seen as for years. Thinking about it I like the Tenth Planet better as a Cyber-men plot.
.
Hi Daveyboy I'm sorry that we seem to disagree on this story but I don't dislike Tomb, far from it,but I think the story suggests certain prejudices though, around race and gender, which seem a bit unpalatable in these modern times so it doesn't feel right to describe it as a 'classic'. It doesn't score top marks for me in both plot logic and characterisation ( cue discussion on what constitutes a classic.... what have I started???) .
Given that this story occurs in the future some of the characters seem less enlightened than the time and to have opinions more applicable to the Victorian era. The flaws in these characters whilst they don't impede the action are there in how they behave.
of course everyone remembers the mystery and the action sequences and that is an important part too and it is a great yarn in that respect.”
“Exactly yes Adams. you've summed up perfectly why although Tomb is hugely entertaining ( yes I do like it) personally I cant quite class the story as a 'classic.' which is what it was seen as for years. Thinking about it I like the Tenth Planet better as a Cyber-men plot.
.
Hi Daveyboy I'm sorry that we seem to disagree on this story but I don't dislike Tomb, far from it,but I think the story suggests certain prejudices though, around race and gender, which seem a bit unpalatable in these modern times so it doesn't feel right to describe it as a 'classic'. It doesn't score top marks for me in both plot logic and characterisation ( cue discussion on what constitutes a classic.... what have I started???) .
Given that this story occurs in the future some of the characters seem less enlightened than the time and to have opinions more applicable to the Victorian era. The flaws in these characters whilst they don't impede the action are there in how they behave.
of course everyone remembers the mystery and the action sequences and that is an important part too and it is a great yarn in that respect.
”
Well we can't agree on everything!
Though your points about race etc are valid I think you have to remember the time this story was made in as well when things even in Doctor Who at that time were probably not as PC as they are now.
I didn't notice much of that the many times I have watched the story so for me your last point about the mystery and the action, plus the atmosphere and that wonderful incidental music of the story itself, that's for me what makes it a classic and more watchable than say The Underwater Menace, The Dominators and other substandard Troughton Stories, few as they are.
I will concede it's not perfect, though. A previous poster queried The Doctor's motivation in wanting to get the hatch open and access to the Tombs. He says he wanted to know what Kleig was upto but he put everyones life at risk to do that. From my point of view that's the only thing that really doesn't make much sense.
It's not quite as strong as some of the following stories but I still love watching it despite it's faults.
Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“Well we can't agree on everything!
Though your points about race etc are valid I think you have to remember the time this story was made in as well when things even in Doctor Who at that time were probably not as PC as they are now.
I didn't notice much of that the many times I have watched the story so for me your last point about the mystery and the action, plus the atmosphere and that wonderful incidental music of the story itself, that's for me what makes it a classic and more watchable than say The Underwater Menace, The Dominators and other substandard Troughton Stories, few as they are.
I will concede it's not perfect, though. A previous poster queried The Doctor's motivation in wanting to get the hatch open and access to the Tombs. He says he wanted to know what Kleig was upto but he put everyones life at risk to do that. From my point of view that's the only thing that really doesn't make much sense.
It's not quite as strong as some of the following stories but I still love watching it despite it's faults.
”
“Well we can't agree on everything!
Though your points about race etc are valid I think you have to remember the time this story was made in as well when things even in Doctor Who at that time were probably not as PC as they are now.
I didn't notice much of that the many times I have watched the story so for me your last point about the mystery and the action, plus the atmosphere and that wonderful incidental music of the story itself, that's for me what makes it a classic and more watchable than say The Underwater Menace, The Dominators and other substandard Troughton Stories, few as they are.
I will concede it's not perfect, though. A previous poster queried The Doctor's motivation in wanting to get the hatch open and access to the Tombs. He says he wanted to know what Kleig was upto but he put everyones life at risk to do that. From my point of view that's the only thing that really doesn't make much sense.
It's not quite as strong as some of the following stories but I still love watching it despite it's faults.
”
That last part is in line with his character. The Doctor always put his curiosity over the safety of others and himself, and it got him in trouble many times. The Daleks best shows this when he pretends the fluid link isn't working just so he can explore, which put the lives of his companions in danger.
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