[geniusgirl]

Originally Posted by alan29

What will happen to civil patnerships? Will they stop happening, will they be offered to all?
If they stop them what about gay couples who are in them? Will they be able to upgrade to what some clearly think of as the superior form of marriage? (Otherwise why the fuss?)

They should be offered to all, why there is a 2 tier system is beyond me.

[CoolboyA]

More rubbish from the CoE. It's the same rubbish that the CoS keep spitting out as well - "Won't somebody please think of the children!" Also, if the Church does split from the state, who will care? They should have been ditched a long time ago!

"The children" being the people who are completely desensitised to this "issue" as I'd say 90% of young people don't care what somebody's sexual orientation is. The other one the Catholic Church are trying to pull in Scotland is that it would become illegal for them to preach about "normal" marriage and to teach their values and life views. I had to ask myself, "Is that such a bad thing?"

In my mind there should be 2 types of marriage available:

Marriage - as it is now, open to both gay and straight people [offered by religious institutions which wish to carry it out]
Civil Marriage - open to both gay and straight couples [taking place of 'civil partnerships']

This whole "we won't force anyone to do it" attitude is wrong - some religious groups having been crying out for years to offer same-sex marriage. Give them the choice!

[alaninmcr]

Originally Posted by johnny_t

If it were me deciding, I think they should split marriage into two...

Part 1 is the formal, legal side of things, where you just sign up to things like a formal partnership for the purpose of things like inheritance without a will, tax matters (where appropriate) etc,

Part 2 is then when you have your own personal marriage recognised and conducted according to whatever creed you want, whether that's C of E, Judaism, Islam, some humanist business, the Church of Gaylandia or whatever.

The officiating organisations also get to set their own rules for who they'll marry.

And that should pretty much solve it...

That is almost what happens now, except that the CoE (and, as far as I know, only the CoE) can do the legal part as well as the religious part. It would be trivial to separate out the legal part as is done for Catholic weddings. This is just pathetic scaremongering by the CoE.

[Lizzy11268]

Sigh. Stupid stupid people. Should all be shot.

[peon]

let the gays get married, it's not fair that only the straights should suffer.

[Nard Dog]

What i dont get is there must be under 1% of the UK is CofE so who cares what they say?

[geniusgirl]

Originally Posted by Nard Dog

What i dont get is there must be under 1% of the UK is CofE so who cares what they say?

Is it under 1%?

[thefairydandy]

Originally Posted by Mrs de Winter

Whilst I completely agree with equal rights for gay couples, I find it hard to understand why any gay couple would want to get married in a church that preaches that it's wrong for them to be homosexual in the first place (well, practising homosexual, anyway ).

Claims that gay marriage 'will destroy the institution of marriage' are nonsense though, no doubt about that.

The Church of England are probably more worried about the members of the clergy who will happily perform gay marriages than those who would be 'forced' into doing so (because obviously, what you really want at your wedding is some bigot resentfully gurning through the vows).

[Teddybleads]

Christianity, should be thanking the gays, if not for them, they'd never make the papers at all.

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by thefairydandy

The Church of England are probably more worried about the members of the clergy who will happily perform gay marriages than those who would be 'forced' into doing so (because obviously, what you really want at your wedding is some bigot resentfully gurning through the vows).

I think this is nearer to the truth. There will be vicars who are more than happy to conduct the ceremony for gay couples (many clergy are gay themselves). It's the church hierachy who are the problem rather than the grassroots church itself.

[Teddybleads]

Originally Posted by Starpuss

I think this is nearer to the truth. There will be vicars who are more than happy to conduct the ceremony for gay couples (many clergy are gay themselves). It's the church hierachy who are the problem rather than the grassroots church itself.

I'd say it's more about appeasing the more hard-line Anglicans further afield rather than the C Of E in this county.

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by Teddybleads

I'd say it's more about appeasing the more hard-line Anglicans further afield rather than the C Of E in this county.

That as well. They don't want to lose the support of the African church. But people I have spoken to are mostly of the opinion that there is less opposition from the actual clergy who would be doing the service than the higher ups would have us believe.

[stoatie]

Originally Posted by Teddybleads

I'd say it's more about appeasing the more hard-line Anglicans further afield rather than the C Of E in this county.

^this^

I would imagine most UK Anglicans would have little problem with gay marriage- the problem lies in trying to keep the Communion united, when the Church elsewhere, for example Africa, is opposed to it.

Personally I think doing the right thing is more important than appeasing your wrong-headed allies, that this is more a matter of conscience than of politics, and that a schism may be what's needed... of course, ymmv.

[Richard46]

Originally Posted by thefairydandy

The Church of England are probably more worried about the members of the clergy who will happily perform gay marriages than those who would be 'forced' into doing so (because obviously, what you really want at your wedding is some bigot resentfully gurning through the vows).

Nail on the head there. The CofE is pretending to be worried about being forced to perform same sex marriage (which they know is not true) when what they are really worried about is being allowed to perform SSM.

That will cause a huge schism between the liberal and the conservative clergy/congregation. At the moment the law against any SSM allows them to dodge the issue.

it is a cynical and disgraceful stance by the CofE; opposing equality under the secular law to help them cover up their own internal conflicts.

[elliecat]

What about the Church's beliefs? Everyone goes on about Gay rights but what about the rights of Christian's and Catholic's and the Church's rights to stick to what they believe. We shouldn't force people to do something which goes against what they believe,just because a small minority of people disagree with that belief and feel that it is their right to impose their views on another party. And yes I know it works both ways. I also believe that if you get married in Church you should actually go to Church.

I don't have an opinion either way but the Cof E is coming in for a lot of stick in this thread.

[johnnybgoode83]

Originally Posted by Nard Dog

A law to allow same-sex weddings will destroy the institution of marriage for future generations, leaders of the Church of England warned yesterday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...500-years.html

Am i missing something here? - but there are about 5% of the population who are gay (roughly). A tiny percentage of that 5% wish to get married.

About 5% of the population go to church

Another brain fart from religious nuts.

[davidmcn]

Originally Posted by elliecat

What about the Church's beliefs? Everyone goes on about Gay rights but what about the rights of Christian's and Catholic's and the Church's rights to stick to what they believe. We shouldn't force people to do something which goes against what they believe,

But nobody's forcing anyone to get married!

[captainkremmen]

Originally Posted by homer2012

Excellent point.

Lets force the Muslim mosques to perform sam sex marriage, oh wait lets not upset that religion.

If the Churchs have to marry same sex marriages then mosques,temples etc should be forced to.

There are NO proposals to force ANY religious institution to allow gay marriages in the proposals.

If the Catholic church doesn't want to allow gay marriages within their churches, or the church of England doesn't want to, they wont have to do so. Obviously it will be up to the individual churches/chapels to make that decision, and some will want to do so.

[Glowbot]

Originally Posted by peon

let the gays get married, it's not fair that only the straights should suffer.

Originally Posted by emby

Nobody is going to be forced to do anything ...

Originally Posted by Mrs de Winter

find it hard to understand why any gay couple would want to get married in a church that preaches that it's wrong for them to be homosexual in the first place

I think all of these statements should be part of the DS gay marriage Bingo card, they seem to crop up every time. Soon we will get a religious bigot who will attention whore and everyone will turn on them, and the thread will close.

[Teddybleads]

"[quote=elliecat;58790995]What about the Church's beliefs? Everyone goes on about Gay rights but what about the rights of Christian's and Catholic's and the Church's rights to stick to what they believe. "

I don't see how gay marriage is going to force anyone to change their beliefs.

"We shouldn't force people to do something which goes against what they believe,just because a small minority of people disagree with that belief and feel that it is their right to impose their views on another party. "

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. We don't force the catholic church to marry divorced people, or synagogs to marry Hindu couples. This would be no different.

[Stiffy78]

Originally Posted by elliecat

What about the Church's beliefs? Everyone goes on about Gay rights but what about the rights of Christian's and Catholic's and the Church's rights to stick to what they believe. We shouldn't force people to do something which goes against what they believe,just because a small minority of people disagree with that belief and feel that it is their right to impose their views on another party. And yes I know it works both ways. I also believe that if you get married in Church you should actually go to Church.

I don't have an opinion either way but the Cof E is coming in for a lot of stick in this thread.

Who is being forced to do anything?

I don't want religious institutions to be forced into anything, I just want them to butt out of secular affairs.

[ladymoanalot]

Originally Posted by captainkremmen

There are NO proposals to force ANY religious institution to allow gay marriages in the proposals.

If the Catholic church doesn't want to allow gay marriages within their churches, or the church of England doesn't want to, they wont have to do so. Obviously it will be up to the individual churches/chapels to make that decision, and some will want to do so.

As I understood it, even if they wanted to they would not be allowed, or has that since changed?

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by elliecat

What about the Church's beliefs? Everyone goes on about Gay rights but what about the rights of Christian's and Catholic's and the Church's rights to stick to what they believe. We shouldn't force people to do something which goes against what they believe,just because a small minority of people disagree with that belief and feel that it is their right to impose their views on another party. And yes I know it works both ways. I also believe that if you get married in Church you should actually go to Church.

I don't have an opinion either way but the Cof E is coming in for a lot of stick in this thread.

They dont want the freedom just to believe it though. They want the law to be couched in terms that ensures everyone else must follow that belief whether they believe it or not.

Not only do they want same sex marriage to not be allowed at all but even if they fail in that they won't accept the premise that they won't be forced into performing them - they want to prevent other churches who may wish to allow their gay congregation to marry to not be allowed to either.

They can believe as they wish. When they want our law to reflect that belief thats when they can take a long walk off a short pier.

[davidmcn]

Originally Posted by ladymoanalot

As I understood it, even if they wanted to they would not be allowed, or has that since changed?

The current government proposals would only allow civil same-sex marriages.

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by davidmcn

The current government proposals would only allow civil same-sex marriages.

Indeed and as far as I am concerned that is wrong. I'm not saying Churches should be forced into accepting same sex marriage (although my personal opinion is that they should) but a church that WANTS to should be allowed to under the law.

If I own a shop, and I refuse to let gay people in solely because they are gay, then I would be breaking the law on discrimination.

If a church wanted to refuse membership to a gay person I wonder what would happen?

Lead on from that to marriage - why should they be exempt based on personal belief? If I have a personal belief that I should have monday's off work, because my deity the big pink monkey says i should, then can I please?