[peon]

Originally Posted by Lizzy11268

Indeed and as far as I am concerned that is wrong. I'm not saying Churches should be forced into accepting same sex marriage (although my personal opinion is that they should) but a church that WANTS to should be allowed to under the law.

If I own a shop, and I refuse to let gay people in solely because they are gay, then I would be breaking the law on discrimination.

If a church wanted to refuse membership to a gay person I wonder what would happen?

Lead on from that to marriage - why should they be exempt based on personal belief? If I have a personal belief that I should have monday's off work, because my deity the big pink monkey says i should, then can I please?

you're into strange territory then though by wanting a marriage conducted by a vicar who has been forced to, but doesn't believe in the ceremony he is conducting. that wouldn't make any kind of spiritual sense at all.

[marjangles]

Originally Posted by peon

you're into strange territory then though by wanting a marriage conducted by a vicar who has been forced to, but doesn't believe in the ceremony he is conducting. that wouldn't make any kind of spiritual sense at all.

Gay marriage has just been passed in Denmark. There the Lutheran Church is established and gay people will be allowed to marry there. However, if a gay couple wishes to marry in the Church and the vicar refuses then he is under no obligation to carry out the ceremony but he must find another vicar willing to carry it out. I think that's a fair compromise and I don't see why that couldn't happen here.

The difference I suppose is that the hierarchy of the church in Denmark aren't anti-gay marriage.

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by marjangles

Gay marriage has just been passed in Denmark. There the Lutheran Church is established and gay people will be allowed to marry there. However, if a gay couple wishes to marry in the Church and the vicar refuses then he is under no obligation to carry out the ceremony but he must find another vicar willing to carry it out. I think that's a fair compromise and I don't see why that couldn't happen here.

The difference I suppose is that the hierarchy of the church in Denmark aren't anti-gay marriage.

This is indeed what should happen here. I would not feel comfortable forcing a vicar to perform a ceremony he/she does not agree with but as long as another vicar is found then that should be fine.

[Neda_Turk]

It really is just disgusting homophobia by a silly organisation that is based on nothing.

The Church of England is now stamping it's little feet and threatening to take it's ball home by not doing marriages at all unless everyone does as they say.

Stupid little children!

This is Christianity is it? This is what it means to be a Christian?

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by peon

you're into strange territory then though by wanting a marriage conducted by a vicar who has been forced to, but doesn't believe in the ceremony he is conducting. that wouldn't make any kind of spiritual sense at all.

Who knows the personal views of the 1000s of people we deal with each week? But one thing is for sure, EVERYONE accept the church HAS TO deal with you and me in a professional, unbiased manner devoid of discrimination.

The person dealing with us all may not like women/men, old peopel/young people, fat people/skinny people or any other kind. However they are expected to deal with all people in a non-discriminatory way or it is them who are clearly in the wrong and action taken against them.

No one else is to blame.

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

Who knows the personal views of the 1000s of people we deal with each week? But one thing is for sure, EVERYONE accept the church HAS TO deal with you and me in a professional, unbiased manner devoid of discrimination.

The person dealing with us all may not like women/men, old peopel/young people, fat people/skinny people or any other kind. However they are expected to deal with all people in a non-discriminatory way or it is them who are clearly in the wrong and action taken against them.

No one else is to blame.

I think Peon's point was that spiritually if you believe in God and all that goes with it and decide you want a church service because of the spiritual aspect then if the person taking the service is begrudging every minute then it won't be what you want.

Of course if you chose a church service the way the majority of straight couples do with nothing more than a need for show and nice photos then a reluctant vicar makes no difference.

[Pootmatoot]

Originally Posted by homer2012

Excellent point.

Lets force the Muslim mosques to perform sam sex marriage, oh wait lets not upset that religion.

If the Churchs have to marry same sex marriages then mosques,temples etc should be forced to.

This has nothing to do with whether gay people can get married in a Church.


It's about whether gay people can get married at all.

No-one's proposing that Churches are going to be forced to do anything.

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by Nard Dog

What i dont get is there must be under 1% of the UK is CofE so who cares what they say?

But what other 1% (or whatever percentage) organisation has automatic positions of power in the House of Lords?

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by peon

you're into strange territory then though by wanting a marriage conducted by a vicar who has been forced to, but doesn't believe in the ceremony he is conducting. that wouldn't make any kind of spiritual sense at all.

Which is why I see the need for an exemption. But because of your vicar who doesnt want to do it, do you think that should mean the vicar that does can't?

[zackai48]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

It really is just disgusting homophobia by a silly organisation that is based on nothing.

The Church of England is now stamping it's little feet and threatening to take it's ball home by not doing marriages at all unless everyone does as they say.

Stupid little children!

This is Christianity is it? This is what it means to be a Christian?

This is not homophobia as I keep having to point out. It is merely Christians following the word of God.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

Who knows the personal views of the 1000s of people we deal with each week? But one thing is for sure, EVERYONE accept the church HAS TO deal with you and me in a professional, unbiased manner devoid of discrimination.

The person dealing with us all may not like women/men, old peopel/young people, fat people/skinny people or any other kind. However they are expected to deal with all people in a non-discriminatory way or it is them who are clearly in the wrong and action taken against them.

No one else is to blame.

how on earth do you expect to have a ceremony such as a religious marriage based on a complete mutual understanding and acceptance of the beliefs carried out by a representative of the church who has no acceptance of the ceremony he is being asked (or forced) to undertake? it would be a sham.

[rasbo]

Ever since gays could marry and society started ignoring church and being obsessed with sex and vanity, we have not had a decent summer. Last years heavy snow, the floods, the rise in natural disasters and the collapse of the global economy are just the start of God's wrath. Mark my words.

[peon]

Originally Posted by Lizzy11268

Which is why I see the need for an exemption. But because of your vicar who doesnt want to do it, do you think that should mean the vicar that does can't?

no, i was responding to your post which clearly said more than once that you think personally that they should be forced to.

[Frood]

Originally Posted by zackai48

This is not homophobia as I keep having to point out. It is merely Christians following the word of God.

Ah yes.

This wonderful 'God' that sends them so many confusing and contradictory 'words' - that have changed so much as science and basic intelligence has disporoved them over the years.

It's rather lucky that he doesn't exist

[November_Rain]

I'm pretty sure this is a silly question, but is there actually a logical reason as to why same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry? The only arguments I seem to hear in favour of restricting marriage to heterosexual couples are of the "marriage is between a man and a woman" type. But such arguments are about as persuasive as saying "gays should not marry because I said so".

If anyone could provide me with rational grounds to be against same-sex marriage then fill me in, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by Starpuss

I think Peon's point was that spiritually if you believe in God and all that goes with it and decide you want a church service because of the spiritual aspect then if the person taking the service is begrudging every minute then it won't be what you want.

Of course if you chose a church service the way the majority of straight couples do with nothing more than a need for show and nice photos then a reluctant vicar makes no difference.

The important part there is "if you believe in God and all that goes with it" - What is this "all that goes with it"? Do all Catholics believe and fully practise to the letter of what the pope preaches? No. So as they can't even decide within one brand of religion what is what, then if you add in other religions who actually want to conduct same sex marriages "all that goes with it" with it is nothing but what they want at any moment.

So you can have your God and eat it, if you shop carefully for your chosen brand of religion.

Only certain religions wish to take one line from the bible and interpret in to mean something whilst choosing to utterly ignore every other line of rules and laws in the very same section that they get the one law they wish to enforce from.

What a lot of silly nonsense religion is.

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by manforktorch

I think the more important question should be why do religious buildings have lightning rods, shouldn't their faith be enough?

Is it possible to excommunicate this poster from atheism on the grounds of stupidity?

[Pootmatoot]

Originally Posted by zackai48

This is not homophobia as I keep having to point out. It is merely Christians following the word of God.

If anything, it's Christians following the word of Paul...

It baffles me that many of the right-wing denominations don't call themselves Paulians, because the bile they spout certainly has little to do with Christ.

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by rasbo

Ever since gays could marry and society started ignoring church and being obsessed with sex and vanity, we have not had a decent summer. Last years heavy snow, the floods, the rise in natural disasters and the collapse of the global economy are just the start of God's wrath. Mark my words.

Thank you most sincerely for posting this.

Why do we have to do any fighting when people like you are destroying religion with posts like that?

Please keep it up!

[Pootmatoot]

Originally Posted by Inkblot

Is it possible to excommunicate this poster from atheism on the grounds of stupidity?

It isn't stupid at all. It's a simple counterpoint to "There are no atheists in foxholes" as there "are no steeples without lightning conductors".

Their points being, in extremis, beliefs of any sort are often discarded, and more comforting ones taken up..

[Starpuss]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

The important part there is "if you believe in God and all that goes with it" - What is this "all that goes with it"? Do all Catholics believe and fully practise to the letter of what the pope preaches? No. So as they can't even decide within one brand of religion what is what, then if you add in other religions who actually want to conduct same sex marriages "all that goes with it" with it is nothing but what they want at any moment.

So you can have your God and eat it, if you shop carefully for your chosen brand of religion.

Only certain religions wish to take one line from the bible and interpret in to mean something whilst choosing to utterly ignore every other line of rules and laws in the very same section that they get the one law they wish to enforce from.

What a lot of silly nonsense religion is.

You seem to think I am against same sex marriage. I am not. I am also an atheist. What I am saying is that it is pointless forcing clergy to marry someone if they are against it. As will happen in Denmark an alternative vicar should be found. This is especially important for those gay couples who are religious. You and I are not but others are. They deserve to have a vicar who isn'y lying when he/she conducts the service.

[Stiffy78]

Originally Posted by November_Rain

I'm pretty sure this is a silly question, but is there actually a logical reason as to why same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry? The only arguments I seem to hear in favour of restricting marriage to heterosexual couples are of the "marriage is between a man and a woman" type. But such arguments are about as persuasive as saying "gays should not marry because I said so".

If anyone could provide me with rational grounds to be against same-sex marriage then fill me in, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Yeah, best not to. I haven't seen a single rational argument against gay marriage on any of the many threads about it or from any religious leader in the media.

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by zackai48

This is not homophobia as I keep having to point out. It is merely Christians following the word of God.

"Quakers, - an international family of diverse Christian religious organizations"

They are a CHRISTIAN organisation who accept same sex marriages and wish to be allowed to conduct them? Should we go against these CHRISTIANS' views?

Are they not following the word of God?

Why is your brand NOT FOLLOWING ALL THE WORDS OF GOD then?

[Frood]

Originally Posted by rasbo

Ever since gays could marry and society started ignoring church and being obsessed with sex and vanity, we have not had a decent summer. Last years heavy snow, the floods, the rise in natural disasters and the collapse of the global economy are just the start of God's wrath. Mark my words.

Either you missed out the or you're a fool.

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by zackai48

This is not homophobia as I keep having to point out. It is merely Christians following the word of God.

Rubbish.

Originally Posted by peon

no, i was responding to your post which clearly said more than once that you think personally that they should be forced to.

If everyone else is, yes. Same rules for all is what I'm thinking would be right but as you correctly pointed out, it wouldnt work in reality.