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Top Up TV, will it survive past 2013?


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Old 19-01-2013, 19:14
1andrew1
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I am a bit what have btvision got to do with Topuptv?
See post #87. Also i) DTT channels 41 & 42 which brodcast Sky Sports 1 & 2 on BT Vision and Top Up are owned by BT. BT has signalled its intent to supply these channels in the future by IPTV. ii) DTT channel 34 is the other way round - it's owned by TopUp and broadcasts ESPN and is resold by BT as well as TopUp,
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Old 19-01-2013, 19:20
tomee
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See post #87. Also i) DTT channels 41 & 42 which brodcast Sky Sports 1 & 2 on BT Vision and Top Up are owned by BT. BT has signalled its intent to supply these channels in the future by IPTV. ii) DTT channel 34 is the other way round - it's owned by TopUp and broadcasts ESPN and is resold by BT as well as TopUp,
Thank you 1andrew1 should be interesting to see what happens.
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Old 19-01-2013, 19:50
chrisy
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See post #87. Also i) DTT channels 41 & 42 which brodcast Sky Sports 1 & 2 on BT Vision and Top Up are owned by BT. BT has signalled its intent to supply these channels in the future by IPTV. ii) DTT channel 34 is the other way round - it's owned by TopUp and broadcasts ESPN and is resold by BT as well as TopUp,
I suspect TUTV makes more money from BT reselling ESPN than they do from their own customers. I doubt they can afford to take over the SS1&2 streams, and without those and the extra income via BT, I'd be surprised if they could keep ESPN running either (ESPN have said they might close anyway)

Doesn't look good for them.
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Old 19-01-2013, 22:35
Everything Goes
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I note BT will be using Fibre Multicast to ensure there will be no buffering issues. HD channels will be included free.

http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Vision...st/td-p/749184
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Old 19-01-2013, 23:47
freetoview33
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Also I guess the question is could it continue without Sky Sports? Also if ESPN closed could that slot be enough for a good enough improved offering to keep it going?
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Old 19-01-2013, 23:52
Everything Goes
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Also I guess the question is could it continue without Sky Sports? Also if ESPN closed could that slot be enough for a good enough improved offering to keep it going?
Is suspect most of their customers are Sky Sports subscribers. ESPN has become less of a draw due to loss of football matches.

Its dead in the water but its been drifting for a long long time.
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Old 20-01-2013, 00:14
freetoview33
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Is suspect most of their customers are Sky Sports subscribers. ESPN has become less of a draw due to loss of football matches.

Its dead in the water but its been drifting for a long long time.
I subscribed a long time ago but gave up in the end once E4 became free (So a long time ago)
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Old 20-01-2013, 09:10
Dionbelmont
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A couple of key questions I would have thought are:

1. At what date will the significant majority of the current BT Sky Sports Subscribers have access to BT Infinity via a Multicast enabled exchange?

2. When IPTV does get going strongly in the UK, will that reduce the value of DTT Channels due to reduced competition to use them?
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Old 20-01-2013, 11:05
Nightdeamon
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I note BT will be using Fibre Multicast to ensure there will be no buffering issues. HD channels will be included free.

http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Vision...st/td-p/749184
Not quite, multicast is a network transmission method that sends packets to a subscribed group (i.e. those who want to view a particular channel). It is actually QoS or Quality of Service which will mean there's no buffering issues together with Packets being sent UDP (usergram data protocol), this means if packets are lost, they're lost but everything carries on, so it will instead drop packets rather than waiting to recover them. The use of these technologies coupled with the bandwidth and efficiency of fibre should mean packet loss is minimal. UDP is also used in real-time applications such as live video, audio and in VoIP.

Catch-up TV, will remain unicast and packets will be sent TCP or transmission control protocol, firstly it will establish a connection (via a three way handshake), UDP is "connectionless". If packets don't arrive or arrive corrupt the packet can be resent, this coupled with lack of bandwidth causing delay is usually what causes buffering, as its not "realtime" as in live, buffering gives everything a chance to catch up before continuing. So you'll still get buffering on catch-up TV services. Buffering is annoying but picture quality will remain constant throughout, unless the server drops you to a lower quality stream, packet loss however will be more noticeable causing fuzzy, blocking, pixelated or even a blank screen.
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Old 20-01-2013, 11:20
Everything Goes
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A couple of key questions I would have thought are:

1. At what date will the significant majority of the current BT Sky Sports Subscribers have access to BT Infinity via a Multicast enabled exchange?

2. When IPTV does get going strongly in the UK, will that reduce the value of DTT Channels due to reduced competition to use them?
BT have told customers to move over to Fibre Infinity if they want to keep Sky Sports or ESPN. As of 22nd Feb 2013 they will only be able to view them via IPTV. So it looks like Sky Sports and ESPN will be withdrawn from DTT on or about this date. If that is indeed the case expect TUTV to cease operations.

DTT will have its bandwidth squeezed as Ofcom auction of spectrum for mobile broadband services like 4G. Part of 800MHz will go as will 700MHz in a few years. So DTT will reduce to basic services.
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Old 20-01-2013, 11:50
Dionbelmont
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BT have told customers to move over to Fibre Infinity if they want to keep Sky Sports or ESPN. As of 22nd Feb 2013 they will only be able to view them via IPTV. So it looks like Sky Sports and ESPN will be withdrawn from DTT on or about this date. If that is indeed the case expect TUTV to cease operations.
.
But as of 22/02/13 what percentage of BT Sky Sports viewers will even have access to an Infinity multicast enabled exchange?

I thought the 22/02/13 date was more applicable to users starting Sky Sports rather than existing BT Sky Sports users?
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Old 20-01-2013, 11:51
Colin_London
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DTT will have its bandwidth squeezed as Ofcom auction of spectrum for mobile broadband services like 4G. Part of 800MHz will go as will 700MHz in a few years. So DTT will reduce to basic services.
Except that it will probably gain the 600MHz Digital Dividend frequencies.

At present Channels 21 to 30 & 39 to 68 are available for TV broadcasting - that's 40 channels.

After release of the 800MHz band this year 8 channels (61 to 68) will be lost to TV. The existing broadcasts are being reshuffled to fit into this smaller capacity without any loss of capacity. In fact the additional Local TV Muxes will also start meaning an increase in overall capacity.

However Ofcom have already stated that they will make Channels 31 to 35 & 37 available for use by DTT on a Geographically Interleaved basis (shared with other applications) from later in 2013 until 2018. So if the broadcasters decide to launch temporary services using these 6 channels capacity will increase again. The thinking is that these will be DVB-T2 services to prepare the population for a 'DVB-T2 Switchover' in 2018.

It's not until 2018 that the 12 channels in the 700MHz band are lost, at which point all the current services should fit into fewer channels using DVB-T2.
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Old 20-01-2013, 12:16
1andrew1
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BT have told customers to move over to Fibre Infinity if they want to keep Sky Sports or ESPN. As of 22nd Feb 2013 they will only be able to view them via IPTV. So it looks like Sky Sports and ESPN will be withdrawn from DTT on or about this date. If that is indeed the case expect TUTV to cease operations.
This is not true, no BT customers to the best of my knowledge have been told to do this, no plans have been announced as to when BT will cease using DTT for sports content...and most sports customers would be unable to upgrade to Infinity today even if they wanted to! Currently BT Infinity is available to just 40% of the population, next year this will rise to 67%. By this stage it will probably be more viable to cease using DTT but even that's not a foregone conclusion.

I thought the 22/02/13 date was more applicable to users starting Sky Sports rather than existing BT Sky Sports users?
Exactly! And it's not necessarily being done for technical reasons, it could well be done to try and increase sales of Infinity using the sports channels as loss leaders which is the cornerstone of BT's investment in its new sports channels.
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Old 20-01-2013, 16:08
chrisy
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However Ofcom have already stated that they will make Channels 31 to 35 & 37 available for use by DTT on a Geographically Interleaved basis (shared with other applications) from later in 2013 until 2018.
Actually it'll be full power for DTT, and other applications (white space devices) can use it on a GI basis.

It's not until 2018 that the 12 channels in the 700MHz band are lost
If it happens at all.
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Old 20-01-2013, 17:23
VisionMan1
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Originally Posted by Everything Goes
BT have told customers to move over to Fibre Infinity if they want to keep Sky Sports or ESPN. As of 22nd Feb 2013 they will only be able to view them via IPTV. So it looks like Sky Sports and ESPN will be withdrawn from DTT on or about this date. If that is indeed the case expect TUTV to cease operations.

This is not true, no BT customers to the best of my knowledge have been told to do this, no plans have been announced as to when BT will cease using DTT for sports content...and most sports customers would be unable to upgrade to Infinity today even if they wanted to! Currently BT Infinity is available to just 40% of the population, next year this will rise to 67%. By this stage it will probably be more viable to cease using DTT but even that's not a foregone conclusion.

Originally Posted by Dionbelmont
I thought the 22/02/13 date was more applicable to users starting Sky Sports rather than existing BT Sky Sports users?

Exactly! And it's not necessarily being done for technical reasons, it could well be done to try and increase sales of Infinity using the sports channels as loss leaders which is the cornerstone of BT's investment in its new sports channels.
And I totally agree with your comments.

I am a BT Infinity customer, who also accesses Sky Sports via DTT. And I have been told no such thing. And I know why too...

You see, the key to all this is YouView.

And more specifically, IPTV on YouView. Because the YV Humax boxes are not yet technically capable of running live IPTV Channels, but they will be. And when this happens, BT will be fully switching to the YouView platform and boxes too, for new customers. This, barring delays, is expected to happen in July, which is also when BT will launch their BT Sports channels. And, it is expected, IPTV Sky Sports too. So BT won't pull the sports channels off DTT until at least this date, and maybe not even then. As their intentions with the DTT channels are unclear. But they will pull them eventually.
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Old 20-01-2013, 21:46
Sobeit
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When BT first bought the football they said their sports channel (now channels) would be available through DTT by use of a pin system as they were going to put it on as many platforms as possible.

They could use channels 41 and 42 for that moving Sky Sports to IPTV then. No talk about reselling through TUTV though.

Until BT take SS1 and SS2 off DTT TUTV is probably profitable. They could stop when 41 and 42 become BT Sports?
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Old 20-01-2013, 22:33
VisionMan1
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When BT first bought the football they said their sports channel (now channels) would be available through DTT by use of a pin system as they were going to put it on as many platforms as possible.

They could use channels 41 and 42 for that moving Sky Sports to IPTV then. No talk about reselling through TUTV though.

Until BT take SS1 and SS2 off DTT TUTV is probably profitable. They could stop when 41 and 42 become BT Sports?
Unfortunately not. BT Sport will not be broadcast via DTT from BT, it will be IPTV only. Though it will be available via satellite, and anyone else who wants to wholesale purchase it too, such as TalkTalk and Virgin Media.

Edit - is there any chance TuTV could go IPTV only? As they and BT do have links to one another, and have done for years.
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Old 20-01-2013, 23:13
1andrew1
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And I totally agree with your comments.
Thanks

Edit - is there any chance TuTV could go IPTV only? As they and BT do have links to one another, and have done for years.
I don't think they would under their current ownership as a TopUp subscriber would probably get a better deal by taking up the TV offer from their ISP so might not stay with TopUp TV. This is one of the reasons why I think it is likely that TopUp TV will be sold this year, probably to BT or another competitor.
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Old 20-01-2013, 23:19
VisionMan1
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Thanks

I don't think they would under their current ownership as a TopUp subscriber would probably get a better deal by taking up the TV offer from their ISP so might not stay with TopUp TV. This is one of the reasons why I think it is likely that TopUp TV will be sold this year, probably to BT or another competitor.
Ahhh... You mean to obtain the database of users, don't you? And then just switch TuTV users to their new provider. At no extra cost, of course.
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Old 21-01-2013, 01:08
1andrew1
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Ahhh... You mean to obtain the database of users, don't you? And then just switch TuTV users to their new provider. At no extra cost, of course.
Subscribers and lapsed subscribers to ESPN would be perfect candidates to take BT Sport. If BT wanted to bolster subscriber numbers early on, converting such subscribers to BT Sport subscriptions could be useful even if it meant DTT broadcasting in the short term.
TopUp also owns low channel number (20: Gold, 26: Home, 34: ESPN). Could any of these be used as a "barker" channel for BT Vision? Probably channel 34 as a barker for BT Sport to raise awareness for a few months, showing the occasional live event too before being wound down.
If BT did not retain the DTT channels, it could also at least ensure they went to a preferred home (eg CBS Cello or Sony rather than to Sky or another pay-tv operator.)
By acquiring TopUp TV, BT also prevents a competitor eg Vodafone acquiring it and using it as the basis for an IPTV operation.
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Old 21-01-2013, 02:00
freetoview33
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Subscribers and lapsed subscribers to ESPN would be perfect candidates to take BT Sport. If BT wanted to bolster subscriber numbers early on, converting such subscribers to BT Sport subscriptions could be useful even if it meant DTT broadcasting in the short term.
TopUp also owns low channel number (20: Gold, 26: Home, 34: ESPN). Could any of these be used as a "barker" channel for BT Vision? Probably channel 34 as a barker for BT Sport to raise awareness for a few months, showing the occasional live event too before being wound down.
If BT did not retain the DTT channels, it could also at least ensure they went to a preferred home (eg CBS Cello or Sony rather than to Sky or another pay-tv operator.)
By acquiring TopUp TV, BT also prevents a competitor eg Vodafone acquiring it and using it as the basis for an IPTV operation.
I don't think they own 20 as Gold got shifted from 17 by UKTV and if Top Up did own it surely it wouldn't have happened.
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Old 21-01-2013, 03:38
1andrew1
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I don't think they own 20 as Gold got shifted from 17 by UKTV and if Top Up did own it surely it wouldn't have happened.
I believe they do and would move if the price was right. Hence maintaining a minimum hours service to placehold.
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Old 21-01-2013, 16:01
Glawster2002
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This is not true, no BT customers to the best of my knowledge have been told to do this, no plans have been announced as to when BT will cease using DTT for sports content...and most sports customers would be unable to upgrade to Infinity today even if they wanted to! Currently BT Infinity is available to just 40% of the population, next year this will rise to 67%. By this stage it will probably be more viable to cease using DTT but even that's not a foregone conclusion.
But if you are a new subscriber to BT Vision, as I am, you can only get the Sky Sports package if you have BT Infinity.
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Old 21-01-2013, 18:22
Sobeit
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[quote=VisionMan1;63724157]Unfortunately not. BT Sport will not be broadcast via DTT from BT, it will be IPTV only.


Has BT actually announced that BT Sport won't be broadcast on DTT and available through an activation code?

When they first bought the Premier League football BT announced that it would be broadcast on DTT see http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/b...043326.article
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Old 21-01-2013, 18:46
chrisy
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I believe they do and would move if the price was right. Hence maintaining a minimum hours service to placehold.
LCNs are "owned" by the channels occupying them. There is no LCN trading, and even swaps between channels owned by the same company are limited. TUTV might get away with "morphing" Ch 34 into another sports channel or a sports-related barker service, if ESPN itself closes completely.

However, it's much more likely that UKTV will keep Ch 20 limping along, and then do a swap with whatever their new FTA channel is when they are allowed to. The lowest numbered TUTV channel which closes will get reallocated to local TV in Scotland and Wales, anything else will remain empty until DMOL/DUK do one of their infrequent reshuffles.
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