[Everything Goes]

When Stephen Elop talked about Nokia being on a burning platform maybe he didn't realise he was jumping out the frying pan into the fire with Microsoft's Windows Phone platform.

Nokia have released new high end phones like the Lumia 900 in June this year only to discover that they will not get the bells and whistles update to Windows Phone 8. Instead they will get a minor update to 7.8. Microsoft have decided the hardware of present phones isn't up to Windows Phone 8.

How will Nokia owners who only bought their top of the range phone to find out its old hat within a matter of a few weeks. The new Nokia Windows Phone 8 range will be out this Autumn.

Have Nokia shot themselves in the foot? Will anyone want to go out and spend a lot of money on a phone that will be out of date come the Autumn? This is bound to impact on sales. Nokia is already on the slippery slope. Could this finish them off?

[finbaar]

I would imagine to people with enough interest to post on a forum about mobile phones then it would matter. To most "normal" users then it probably does not and they won't even know that they have been stuck with a "feature" phone. (And I know many WP7 users love the OS but at the moment it still lags behind in many areas).

WP8 will be a proper smart phone operting system and should get some decent hardware to run on. I hope it is a sucess and then there will actually be an alternative to Android. I just can't see Nokia's money lasting long enough until it (or if) catches on and it will be a shame if they do go under as they are knocking out some nice bits of kit which at least look different.

[Step666]

Cue the inevitable rumours that MS will buy Nokia...


I'm not sure this will be the end for Nokia, though it certainly won't help them at all.
I think they were already in a position where things will get (possibly much) worse before they get better though, so the additional impact of this will add but nothing more IMO.

However, this may well lead other WP OEMs to reconsider how much support they want to give to the OS.
If there is a retaliation from consumers, companies like HTC and in particular Samsung who are having success with Android will want to distance themselves from that.

[alanwarwic]

HTC are primarily a Microsoft company.
They were surely the worlds biggest manufacturer of Win CE gadgets.
Android is where they became a major brand name but it is a case of needs must for them.

I'm not sure if the Nokia move was a half cocked mistake. Symbian could have benefited from decent hardware.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

HTC are primarily a Microsoft company.

Were.

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

Android is where they became a major brand name but it is a case of needs must for them.

It wasn't simply brand awareness, their market-share and profits all increased drastically thanks to Android.


The only WP OEM that can't afford to drop the OS on a whim is Nokia.
Samsung probably wouldn't even notice, HTC may take a small hit but their primary business now is Android, they'd survive without MS.

In fact, given they way they've been treated by MS, not being allowed to customise WP7 when Nokia were allowed to, being excluded from early Win8 tablet efforts, they'd have plenty of reason to consider cutting their losses.

[wildphantom!]

I'll play Devils Advocate here; Nokia knew full well that MSFT were building WP8 before the Lumia launch and that it would be incompatible with the new OS. Could they have held it back for a few months and launch with 2 cores, MicroSD and 8? Probably not, Nokia needed to launch a new phone in the summer both for themselves but also for Microsoft. As one poster says the normal public will be none the wiser when 7 8 ships, it will still have the aesthetic feel as 8, it will just lack the hardware abilities (NFC, Dual Core power). So I don't think it will have a effect long term. Nokia will launch a new WP in the Autumn for launch probably and Samsung, HTC and Huawei say they will launch WP smartphones (notice the plural in their press releases) so it will have a strong launch more so than 7 and with the added push of Windows 8.

Remember Ice Cream Sandwhich as had little effect having under 10% uptake, the public seem fine with Gingerbread and it will be the same with 7.8. Apple are the only ones to truly update their own OS but I suppose that's 'easier' owning both hardware and software. MSFT offer 18 months of updates when 8 is released so after a 2 year contract you will have to upgrade your phone to get the current OS theoretically.

Just my take.

[IvanIV]

In retrospect it might have been better if MS waited for WP8 to release a new phone OS. WP7 looks like a dead end now. Something that was supposed to take off, but it didn't. I am not upset, I like WP7 and by the time to renew my contract there will be more options available for me. I do not keep a phone for more than two years anyway. iOS does not fully support older hardware and ICS is only available on a fraction of Android phones. How is the situation with WP7.8 worse.

[alanwarwic]

Originally Posted by Step666

It wasn't simply brand awareness, their market-share and profits all increased drastically thanks to Android.

I am confident they are still a Foxconn like manufacturer.
This time they will be HTC branded.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

iOS does not fully support older hardware and ICS is only available on a fraction of Android phones. How is the situation with WP7.8 worse.

All of those are examples of fragmentation.
But whilst it's inevitable on Android due to the open-source nature of the OS, Apple and MS could do more to prevent it due to the fact they retain basically total control.

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

I am confident they are still a Foxconn like manufacturer.

You mean like the XDAs, MDAs, SPVs etc? They pretty much stopped that years ago.
There's only been a handful of recent examples like the G1 and the Nexus One but in such cases the fact that HTC manufactured them was widely and publicly acknowledged.

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

This time they will be HTC branded.

They've been selling handsets primarily under their own name since the Touch Diamond.

[swordman]

Nokia is now totally reliant on windows phone being a success (symbian cannot stop the bleeding for them any longer). I would be very reluctant to place any money on windows phone achieving the required market penetration before Nokia goes pop. Even the massive discounts being offered on their lumia handsets hasn't stopped them issuing big profit warnings .. things looking really grim I would say.

Unless of course MS are to pump more cash into them.

[Zack06]

What Microsoft have done with this move is effectively undo all the progress Windows Phone 7 made in the market, and that is NOT good news for Nokia....They've literally handcuffed themselves to MS now, so they are completely at the mercy of how this OS does in the market, and with this move, it's going to be a rocky ride for them....plus with Android Jelly Bean around the corner, I just don't think WP8 is good enough to keep Nokia afloat for the long-term.

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by Zack06

What Microsoft have done with this move is effectively undo all the progress Windows Phone 7 made in the market, and that is NOT good news for Nokia....They've literally handcuffed themselves to MS now, so they are completely at the mercy of how this OS does in the market, and with this move, it's going to be a rocky ride for them....plus with Android Jelly Bean around the corner, I just don't think WP8 is good enough to keep Nokia afloat for the long-term.

They havent undone anything, Microsoft was always going to have Windows Phone 8 launch the same time or around the same time as Windows 8 that's a given, it's just the natural progression of an OS, this update is a more hardware update anyway, which OEM's have been crying out for particularly HTC and Samsung - seen by HTC's apparent launch of 3 Windows Phone 8 devices following their One Series. With this shared core Microsoft can tempt Windows 8 users over to their phone OS as its basically the same - a complete ecosystem and if this pays off Nokia could shift units tenfold. But this is all hypothetical and it needs to pay off for Nokia. This is something Apple is leaning towards but haven't totally migrated OS X with iOS and they will probably be keen now to with MSFT showing its hand. Plus initial Windows Phones owners will be ready to upgrade in October (myself included) ill see what Nokia and the other partners have to offer but I'll keep my cards open and may go back to iOS, but the updates at WWDC have me leaning towards generation 3 of Windows Phone.

Nokia is handcuffed to Microsoft but they knew what they were getting into when the signed that multi billion dollar deal and WP8 is the key to the success, they've probably got new phones ready for launch.

If Jelly Bean is anything like ICS it's anything but round the corner, Google need to pull their finger out and tell OEMs and carriers to push out updates - like many people said the vast majority won't get ICS never mind Jelly Bean.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

They havent undone anything, Microsoft was always going to have Windows Phone 8 launch the same time or around the same time as Windows 8 that's a given, it's just the natural progression of an OS, this update is a more hardware update anyway, which OEM's have been crying out for particularly HTC and Samsung - seen by HTC's apparent launch of 3 Windows Phone 8 devices following their One Series. With this shared core Microsoft can tempt Windows 8 users over to their phone OS as its basically the same - a complete ecosystem and if this pays off Nokia could shift units tenfold. But this is all hypothetical and it needs to pay off for Nokia. This is something Apple is leaning towards but haven't totally migrated OS X with iOS and they will probably be keen now to with MSFT showing its hand. Plus initial Windows Phones owners will be ready to upgrade in October (myself included) ill see what Nokia and the other partners have to offer but I'll keep my cards open and may go back to iOS, but the updates at WWDC have me leaning towards generation 3 of Windows Phone.

Nokia is handcuffed to Microsoft but they knew what they were getting into when the signed that multi billion dollar deal and WP8 is the key to the success, they've probably got new phones ready for launch.

If Jelly Bean is anything like ICS it's anything but round the corner, Google need to pull their finger out and tell OEMs and carriers to push out updates - like many people said the vast majority won't get ICS never mind Jelly Bean.

They have undone almost everything. Every owner of a Windows Phone 7 device today CANNOT upgrade to WP8 so that installed base is completely lost...

MS have chosen to follow an extremely high risk strategy, and one which has far more severe consequences for Nokia than themselves. Yes WP7 desperately needed these updates, but surely it couldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility to have it work on at least the most high end WP7 devices like the Lumia 900....all that progress has effectively been erased, and WP7 is technically just one giant beta test.

I'm not entirely sure Windows 8 will do what people are claiming it will for WP8, the OS has recieved fairly negative reviews all round, and if this continues on it's release then it will only damage WP8 further especially if Windows 8 becomes another ME/Vista PR disaster.

Apple have done the bare minimum to keep up with the competition, at present WP8 and iOS6 are on a level playing field.....Android 4.1 is around the corner as the announcement is on the 27th June, for an Autumn release....MS and Apple should be very scared with what they are coming up with, as if the rumours of 5 Nexus devices plus a Nexus tablet are true, then the MS Surface, iPad and all their mobile devices will be under threat.

[Everything Goes]

Like finbaar says not everyone will be annoyed at this. But im pretty sure the enthusiasts who shelled out £500 on a Lumia 900 or are on a 18 month contract wont be happy

These customers are most likely to be promoters of Nokia and the Windows Phone platform. However they probably rightly feel shafted. Giving both Nokia and Microsoft negative feedback to their friends, family, and forum members

There will no doubt be other customers who either don't know or don't care about Windows Phone 8. They are more likely to be on lower spec phones.

As for Zack06 comments on Windows 8 I cant tell you ive had Windows 8 on one of my PCs for a few months and the Metro interface is wholly unsuitable for desktop PCs. Its a lot of mucking about to do simple things. It wont go down well with consumers and business users. So it wont get much in the way of good publicity like Vista and ME

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by Zack06

They have undone almost everything. Every owner of a Windows Phone 7 device today CANNOT upgrade to WP8 so that installed base is completely lost...

MS have chosen to follow an extremely high risk strategy, and one which has far more severe consequences for Nokia than themselves. Yes WP7 desperately needed these updates, but surely it couldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility to have it work on at least the most high end WP7 devices like the Lumia 900....all that progress has effectively been erased, and WP7 is technically just one giant beta test.

I'm not entirely sure Windows 8 will do what people are claiming it will for WP8, the OS has recieved fairly negative reviews all round, and if this continues on it's release then it will only damage WP8 further especially if Windows 8 becomes another ME/Vista PR disaster.

Apple have done the bare minimum to keep up with the competition, at present WP8 and iOS6 are on a level playing field.....Android 4.1 is around the corner as the announcement is on the 27th June, for an Autumn release....MS and Apple should be very scared with what they are coming up with, as if the rumours of 5 Nexus devices plus a Nexus tablet are true, then the MS Surface, iPad and all their mobile devices will be under threat.

That's like saying Android have undone everything if Gingerbread phones can't upgrade to ICS/Jelly Bean is it not? Or iOS upgrades not coming to their older phones. You cannot bring full supprt to 8 if you havent got the hardware. It's naive as a consumer to think every new update WILL come to your device the majority of the general public don't care anyway. As I said before MSFT state that it will have software support for 18 months, so after that 18 months will Window Phone 8 undo everything?

I don't think it was a beta test just the general evolution of an operating system, remember Windows Phone is only just coming up to 2 years old. MS could have just left it at 7.5 but are bringing all the WP8 aesthetic features to current devices making them 'feel' like WP8. A compromise with the current hardware? Probably.

I have seen the negative reaction to Windows 8 but after Surface was announced it seemed to fade away, the PC OS will take time until it is finally releases, but I do understand where your coming from. OS X Lion had negative reaction but seems to be okay now as it was fleshed out a little. But if users can interact with their phones on the go and the continue at home flawlessly, I'm sure it will get some fans - Microsoft need this to work.

Microsofts strategy was to gain a foothold (a small one at that) and eventually get to the stage of an integrated ecosystem with Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 and Surface. With that system it should be Google that is under threat - Android tablets are truly horrific. Plus It's said that Microsoft make more money on Android in terms of patents than its own OS! I just can't fathom how such a poor uptake from both OEMs and carriers for ICS that Jelly Bean is going to be much different, is it guaranteed that Jelly Beam will come to the S3 or the One S/X if they don't will their owners be pissed off like Lumia owners?

I'm not a Microsoft 'fan boy' or anything I mainly have Apple products and a VAIO laptop, I just genuinely like the OS after iOS and Android

[John Malkovich]

Nokia's stubbornness to embrace Android in addition to Windows Phone, Symbian and Meego is what I believe killed them.

[IvanIV]

With Windows 8 desktop I think it's still possible to pin programmes to taskbar so you can do just that never to be bothered with the start menu again. I think people show strong emotions about something unsubstantial. For me anyway.

With Windows Phone 8 MS are changing direction completely. They are throwing out the WP7 OS kernel and using one from Windows 8. It was all about managed code, Silverlight etc. They are keeping it only to have backward compatibility, but it's about a native code now. Especially games will profit from it. But I really don't know what to think about this U-turn. Were different teams involved in this and W8 vision to unify user experience across devices had won? Or was WP7 only temporary. To me it looks like they are aborting WP7 and rebooting to something different.

[far2cool]

The Nokia name still carries a lot of weight - If they started making android handsets then they could be far from dead

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

That's like saying Android have undone everything if Gingerbread phones can't upgrade to ICS/Jelly Bean is it not? Or iOS upgrades not coming to their older phones. You cannot bring full supprt to 8 if you havent got the hardware. It's naive as a consumer to think every new update WILL come to your device the majority of the general public don't care anyway. As I said before MSFT state that it will have software support for 18 months, so after that 18 months will Window Phone 8 undo everything?

I'm not a Microsoft 'fan boy' or anything I mainly have Apple products and a VAIO laptop, I just genuinely like the OS after iOS and Android

No it's not because at the least, most of the flagship devices were upgradeable to ICS. No WP7 devices AT ALL will be able to upgrade, so it's an entirely different situation. And they will have many irate owners to contend with who are essentially left with obsolete devices and a Mickey Mouse update.

The strategy is extremely risky, and a key part of it is relying on Windows 8 becoming a success which looks very far from certain at this point. This is a huge gamble and if it goes wrong, although Microsoft with all its other projects will be able to take the punch, Nokia will be dead on the floor if this strategy fails.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by John Malkovich

Nokia's stubbornness to embrace Android in addition to Windows Phone, Symbian and Meego is what I believe killed them.

I think you are right here. They should have adopted the strategy used by HTC, LG and Samsung of creating flagship devices for both Android and Windows Phone.....that way, they at least have more room to manoeuvre if one platform didn't work out...

Android is immensely popular and has turned small time manufacturers into big industry players (see HTC), plus Nokia, who specialises in low cost hardware as well as high end would have been a perfect fit....

I think they made a very big mistake in locking themselves into the WP ecosystem, and if it fails, it will be nobody's fault but their own.

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

With Windows 8 desktop I think it's still possible to pin programmes to taskbar so you can do just that never to be bothered with the start menu again. I think people show strong emotions about something unsubstantial. For me anyway.

With Windows Phone 8 MS are changing direction completely. They are throwing out the WP7 OS kernel and using one from Windows 8. It was all about managed code, Silverlight etc. They are keeping it only to have backward compatibility, but it's about a native code now. Especially games will profit from it. But I really don't know what to think about this U-turn. Were different teams involved in this and W8 vision to unify user experience across devices had won? Or was WP7 only temporary. To me it looks like they are aborting WP7 and rebooting to something different.

Yeah I think Microsoft saw the light so to speak and are doing it 'the Apple way' by having a close ecosystem - even more so by having a Microsoft hardware with Surface but we all know how Zune went so who knows. They couldn't do that with the previous core and are using the same core as Windows 8 so everything will be linked, all your purchases in apps/video/music came easily beep moved from tablet to PC to WP. It is for sure to unify the experience.

Windows Phone 7 was always going to be temporary IMO, ever since we saw Metro on Windows 8 we knew that they were going to refine their Phone OS and it's happened but they have a solid foundation with OEM partners and rave reviews about the OS itself never mind the hardware. If im honest I would have rather Microsoft took it one step further and build their own phone when 7 launched rather than relying on OEMs to make hardware when Android was growing, we've seen half-arsed efforts from Samsung and HTC with only Nokia bringing the 800/900 but again that would have been a huge risk in pissing off their partners! Windows Phone 8 is looking to change that.

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by Zack06

No it's not because at the least, most of the flagship devices were upgradeable to ICS. No WP7 devices AT ALL will be able to upgrade, so it's an entirely different situation. And they will have many irate owners to contend with who are essentially left with obsolete devices and a Mickey Mouse update.

Yeah I know what you mean but again MSFT are between a rock and a hard place they dont have the hardware to support 8 but at least they are giving their customers something. but what if current flagship phones like the S3 and One series which have just came out being not upgradable with Jelly Bean? I don't know if they've been confirmed but knowing Google and it's relationship with carriers who knows. If they can't be bothered with ICS why should they with Jelly Bean.

[IvanIV]

I wonder if WP7.8 will have the same kernel as WP8 just without features depending on new HW or it's just a facelift of the start screen. Because the latter would mean no new apps for WP7.8 users. Those will be native C++ and RT, WP7 uses Silverlight and XNA framework for games, both managed and suddenly a legacy.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

Yeah I know what you mean but what if current flagship phones like the S3 and One series which have just came out being now upgradable with Jelly Bean? I don't know if they've been confirmed but knowing Google and it's relationship with carriers who knows. If they can't be bothered with ICS why should they with Jelly Bean.

The S3 and One series will more than likely be upgradeable to Jelly Bean, Google won't be stupid enough to lock out key devices in the upgrade, and even in the unlikely event of it not being official, the vast development community for Android would have it ported in no time, so that the people who cared about Jelly Bean would be able to get it anyway...

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

I wonder if WP7.8 will have the same kernel as WP8 just without features depending on new HW or it's just a facelift of the start screen. Because the latter would mean no new apps for WP7.8 users. Those will be native C++ and RT, WP7 uses Silverlight and XNA framework for games, both managed and suddenly a legacy.

Apparently this is the reason why WP7 devices will not be available. The new kernel shares code with Windows 8 and needs more powerful hardware. Windows Phone 7.8 is just a facelift with the new Start screen and select 'key features' added....it's a bad compromise tbh.

Also WP8 apps will not be compatible with WP7 which makes things even worse.