[wildphantom!]

Who knows with Microsoft, but I don't think it will have the same Kernal 7.8 is just aesthetic and software upgrade such as the camera features. I think it's apps that will use the added power in the cores that will be unavailable and power apps.

I think the added pressure from OEMs made the hardware change to, I'm sure Samsung and HTC wanted these changes so they could easily 'port' their phones to either OS.

So we could have for talking sake Samsung's new Hero device in either Android or Windows Phone with very little change in hardware except for soft buttons, slots, NFC ect.

[IvanIV]

A lot of work went into WP7, developer tools, infrastructure. It did not look like WP7 was going to bow out after 2 years. I think somebody pulled the plug on it. Has anybody important from this area left Microsoft recently? That would support my speculations. In terms of architecture, internal things, this is no evolution of the OS, this is a revolution

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

A lot of work went into WP7, developer tools, infrastructure. It did not look like WP7 was going to bow out after 2 years. I think somebody pulled the plug on it. Has anybody important from this area left Microsoft recently? That would support my speculations. In terms of architecture, internal things, this is no evolution of the OS, this is a revolution

I agree something as finally happened at Microsoft it's like they've woken up. Revamp for PC and Mobile OS and launching new hardware. Finally some competition and thats a good thing for Apple to evolve and Google to push its tablet business and finally get rid of Chrome OS.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

I agree something as finally happened at Microsoft it's like they've woken up. Revamp for PC and Mobile OS and launching new hardware. Finally some competition and thats a good thing for Apple to evolve and Google to push its tablet business and finally get rid of Chrome OS.

Microsoft have woken up too late. They are trying to launch an entirely new product in a world where Apple and Google control 90% of the mobile market. Apple is in a slightly more vulnerable position, and if MS plays their cards right with this, WP8 could end up overtaking Apple and be second to Android...

I think at this point, it's going to take something very big to overthrow Android at the top. Everyone thought it would be game over with the Oracle lawsuit but that didn't even leave a scratch on Android and it will continue to grow. It is the Windows of the mobile world, that is plain to see now. It's up to Microsoft whether they stay the Linux of the mobile world or challenge Apple for 2nd place.

[wilt]

Originally Posted by John Malkovich

Nokia's stubbornness to embrace Android in addition to Windows Phone, Symbian and Meego is what I believe killed them.

But then they would have lost the billions(!) that they are receiving from Microsoft in 'platform support payments' and be in an even worse state.

Android isn't some sort of magic solution - for every Android phone that is a success, there are many more that fail. Just ask Sony, they are still trying to break through the Samsung/HTC stranglehold on the Android market.

Going exclusive to WP was a gamble, but if WP succeeds then the rewards for Nokia as the 'dominant' WP OEM are great.

The WP8 announcement might put a short term dent in sales, but Nokia aren't about to go out of business before Christmas - even the most pessimistic predictions are giving them a few years.

[IvanIV]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

I agree something as finally happened at Microsoft it's like they've woken up. Revamp for PC and Mobile OS and launching new hardware. Finally some competition and thats a good thing for Apple to evolve and Google to push its tablet business and finally get rid of Chrome OS.

I am impressed with the Surface tablets. I was considering to get an ultrabook this year, but very likely it will be Surface pro if it has a reasonable battery life.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by wilt

The WP8 announcement might put a short term dent in sales, but Nokia aren't about to go out of business before Christmas - even the most pessimistic predictions are giving them a few years.

Agree with this - I think WP8 is going to be huge

[wilt]

Originally Posted by alan1302

Agree with this - I think WP8 is going to be huge

Hopefully.

There are a lot of big releases coming up for Microsoft in the second half of this year, and with a bit of luck these releases will be the catalyst that sees the entire Microsoft ecosystem come together and stop under-performing. For years there has been no synergy at all between different MS products while Apple has been linking everything together to promote cross-sales between products.

If W8 does well, then WP8 should do well.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by wilt

Hopefully.

There are a lot of big releases coming up for Microsoft in the second half of this year, and with a bit of luck these releases will be the catalyst that sees the entire Microsoft ecosystem come together and stop under-performing. For years there has been no synergy at all between different MS products while Apple has been linking everything together to promote cross-sales between products.

If W8 does well, then WP8 should do well.

I think it's the first time I can remember Microsoft launching things at a time when they are a bit of an underdog and they seem to have a kind of 'good vibe' for want of a better word about everything they are doing now...for the last few years its all been about Apple and Google with Microsoft kind of sitting in the shadows making some plans that all come to fruition by the end of the year - interesting times.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by alan1302

Agree with this - I think WP8 is going to be huge

We'll see. It all depends on the success of Windows 8 and that is a wobbly tower which could either stabilise or collapse. MS have gone for an extremely high risk strategy, so their gamble will either pay off excellently or end in disaster, and with Google and Apple continuing to grow, rapidly, time is running out for MS to achieve the former.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by John Malkovich

Nokia's stubbornness to embrace Android in addition to Windows Phone, Symbian and Meego is what I believe killed them.

Nokia would've died a quicker and more terrible death had they gone for Android - they simply wouldn't've been able to compete with other Android OEMs.
WP7 at least meant they could forego having to spend anything on software development and they didn't have to think too hard about what hardware to use.

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

...we've seen half-arsed efforts from Samsung and HTC...

They wouldn't've been half-arsed had MS not dictated exactly what hardware they could use.

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

but what if current flagship phones like the S3 and One series which have just came out being not upgradable with Jelly Bean?

That just doesn't happen on flagship Android handsets.
The competition between Android OEMs forces them to provide decent support or lose sales down the line.

Originally Posted by wilt

Just ask Sony, they are still trying to break through the Samsung/HTC stranglehold on the Android market.

Sony's lack of success is entirely of their own making.
In fact, they're a perfect example of what I said before about Android's internal competition forcing OEMs to stay on their toes - Sony (Ericsson) half been half-arsed since day one and are paying the price.

[wilt]

Originally Posted by Step666

Sony's lack of success is entirely of their own making.
In fact, they're a perfect example of what I said before about Android's internal competition forcing OEMs to stay on their toes - Sony (Ericsson) half been half-arsed since day one and are paying the price.

Well the phones have been decent - but not ground-breaking.

But that is exactly my point - in some quarters Android is being bandied about as some sort of magic pill for Nokia. But there is no evidence at all that Nokia is able to make the sort of device that is required to be a massive success in the Android marketplace. From what we have seen so far, Nokia is a massive and bureaucratic organisation - there is no way they would be releasing any phones with the latest silicon like Samsung & HTC can - they would be perpetually a generation behind like Sony.

And even if they could make that sort of device, the path to recovery via Android would be no shorter, yet potentially more expensive and more difficult.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by wilt

Well the phones have been decent - but not ground-breaking.

Some of them you couldn't even call 'decent'.

[wilt]

Originally Posted by Step666

Some of them you couldn't even call 'decent'.

That's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

[wildphantom!]

At the end of the day if anyone was to buy Nokia it wouldn't be for their hardware (maybe their phone stuff) but for the patents. Which ploughs a huge amount of money into the company. Remember MSFT also has the new SmartGlass with the Xbox 360 by far the best hardware they have ever produced, even if they get a core of 360 gamers over to Windows Phone using SmartGlass that's a huge amount of sales.

I still do get this whole Android march, it's only the top OS because of the huge variety of dirt cheap handsets, Apple's market share is huge knowing the relative cost of their handsets compared to Android.

ICS has a uptake of 7.1% as of June 2nd which is shocking for a huge OS and that includes the S3 that was shipped on 4.0 rather than people upgrading, what's to say Jelly Bean will be any different if the OEMs or Networks dont update them and the purists can just get a ROM anyway, but I do respect the opinion that no WP handsets can get 8. Gingerbread has 65% and even 2.2 has 19%. The upgrade to Windows Phone 8 to 7 users is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things to Nokia and I'm sure they worked with Microsoft on the new software and hardware configurations.

[alanwarwic]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

I still do get this whole Android march, it's only the top OS because of the huge variety of dirt cheap handsets

There is a lot of great software that is not available on any other smartphone.
Much of it never will be.

[Helbore]

I think there is some excessive doomsaying with the upgrade issue. Yes, WP7.5 devices won't be getting WP8. But it seems the WP7.8 will be bringing along most (if not all) of the features of WP8 that don't require new hardware anyway. No existing handset was going to get features that required new hardware, no matter what version they got an upgrade to. It really isn't any different than iPhone 4 users not getting Siri, even though they got iOS 5. Perhaps Microsoft would have been better naming WP7.8 as WP8, but with a few features missing. Technically, its no different, but the marketing is better.

The only area where WP7.8 suffers over WP8 on existing hardware is the apps. Yes, WP8 apps won't be compatible, but I think the significance is overplayed. WP7 apps ARE compatible with WP8 and with WP7 having a larger user base, its likely that WP7 app development won't overtake WP8app development immediately. Plus the version incompatibility for apps isn't something unique to Windows Phone. There are plenty of apps in both the Apple and Android stores that only work on a certain version.

So I think the whole situation is badly overplayed. All current handsets will be getting an update, just not all new features - which is the same you can expect from the competition. Similarly, apps developed for the newer version won't be compatible with the older version - which is the same as the competition. It's also not a big deal, as you can still develop apps that are compatible with both versions - again, just like the competition.

It really isn't that big a deal.

[Zack06]

Originally Posted by Helbore

The only area where WP7.8 suffers over WP8 on existing hardware is the apps. Yes, WP8 apps won't be compatible, but I think the significance is overplayed. WP7 apps ARE compatible with WP8 and with WP7 having a larger user base, its likely that WP7 app development won't overtake WP8app development immediately.

Current WP7 users will find themselves locked out of the app ecosystem pretty quickly. Developers aren't really going to be enticed into developing brand new apps for the existing platform when they know that WP8 provides a better ecosystem and a far far bigger installed base when Windows 8 is considered. It's pretty much the end of the line for WP7 and its users.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by Helbore

It really isn't any different than iPhone 4 users not getting Siri, even though they got iOS 5. Perhaps Microsoft would have been better naming WP7.8 as WP8, but with a few features missing. Technically, its no different, but the marketing is better.

You're wrong, it's different in one key way - that's Apple.
No other company gets to behave as Apple do, it's just a fact.

Doing something and thinking you can get away with it because Apple do is bordering on idiocy.

Originally Posted by Helbore

Plus the version incompatibility for apps isn't something unique to Windows Phone. There are plenty of apps in both the Apple and Android stores that only work on a certain version.

Yes but the version incompatibility on other OSs never affects every handset sold so far.

An Android app doesn't work on anything but ICS, so what? Plenty of handsets will be upgraded to ICS.
Not nearly as similar as you've made it out to be.

Also, this is the second time in quick succession that MS have killed backwards-compatibility for new apps - WP7 apps were incompatible with Windows Mobile and now WP8 apps are incompatible with WP7.
Makes you wonder what happens when they release WP9...

[Matt D]

Originally Posted by Step666

An Android app doesn't work on anything but ICS, so what? Plenty of handsets will be upgraded to ICS.

When will that happen, then? Google itself says that only 7.1% of Android devices are running ICS, compared to 65% still using Gingerbread (which is actually an increase in Gingerbread devices since the last figures).

[stats previously mentioned by wildphantom!]

[Step666]

Originally Posted by Matt D

When will that happen, then? Google itself says that only 7.1% of Android devices are running ICS, compared to 65% still using Gingerbread (which is actually an increase in Gingerbread devices since the last figures).

[stats previously mentioned by wildphantom!]

That's how it happens with every Android release, it's hardly news.
And ICS is a much bigger update than Gingerbread was, far more in the way of changes so it's only natural it

Anyway, to answer your question, it's happening now.
The US Galaxy S2 variants are starting to be updated; it's also not that long since the i9100 (the international Galaxy S2) was updated, meaning some network-locked variants will only be getting it now; the Galaxy Note was only just updated, again meaning some network-locked handsets will get it soon; the HTC Sensation has just received it on T-Mobile in the UK; and the Xperia S (which frankly should've shipped with ICS) has just received it.
And that's just the stuff I know about off the top of my head.

[Everything Goes]

Originally Posted by Zack06

Current WP7 users will find themselves locked out of the app ecosystem pretty quickly. Developers aren't really going to be enticed into developing brand new apps for the existing platform when they know that WP8 provides a better ecosystem and a far far bigger installed base when Windows 8 is considered. It's pretty much the end of the line for WP7 and its users.

Support for Microsoft Windows Mobile 6 was ended within a relatively short space of time. That included the removal of the app store (Windows Marketplace) no alternative offered. Removal of software features which stopped functioning either partly or completely. I'm talking about Microsoft software not 3rd party apps

Let the buyer beware!

[wildphantom!]

Originally Posted by Step666

That's how it happens with every Android release, it's hardly news.
And ICS is a much bigger update than Gingerbread was, far more in the way of changes so it's only natural it

No, the uptake is painfully slow, look at the hundreds of articles online about ICS uptake its laughable, it's been joked about for ages. Plus if Google are finally pushing out updates for ICS, Jelly Bean comes out in the Autumn. It's a failure for a company like Google to have an uptake of 7% for a year and then expect OEM's and carriers to upgrade them to 4.1 again. So ICS it's major 4 upgrade might not even break 10% before Jelly Bean!

Will 4.0 become redundant just as customers are getting the update as Jelly Bean is coming out in a couple of months? It will probably take another year again just as Key Lime Pie launches, this is a major problem for Google more so than Microsoft who delivered 7.5 (Mango) brilliantly - apart from hiccups from T-Mobile.

The whole 7.8 thing is way over blown in the state of Android updates. Apple by far have the best software updates, if you want a complete up-to-date OS for a least 2 (or more) years go with iOS.

[Everything Goes]

One of the important things that will hasten Windows Phone 7.X demise will be that fact that Microsoft are making it easy to port between Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8. Makes things easier for developers.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by wildphantom!

No, the uptake is painfully slow, look at the hundreds of articles online about ICS uptake its laughable, it's been joked about for ages. Plus if Google are finally pushing out updates for ICS, Jelly Bean comes out in the Autumn. It's a failure for a company like Google to have an uptake of 7% for a year and then expect OEM's and carriers to upgrade them to 4.1 again. So ICS it's major 4 upgrade might not even break 10% before Jelly Bean!

Will 4.0 become redundant just as customers are getting the update as Jelly Bean is coming out in a couple of months? It will probably take another year again just as Key Lime Pie launches, this is a major problem for Google more so than Microsoft who delivered 7.5 (Mango) brilliantly - apart from hiccups from T-Mobile.

The whole 7.8 thing is way over blown in the state of Android updates. Apple by far have the best software updates, if you want a complete up-to-date OS for a least 2 (or more) years go with iOS.

Froyo was released in May 2010 - after a couple of months it was at 3.3% and by ~6 months it had reached 43.4%.
Gingerbread was released in December 2010 - after 3 months it had reached 1.7% and by 6 months it was at 9.2%.
ICS was released October 2011 - after 1.5 months it had reached 0.6%, at 4.5 months it was 2.9% and as of the start of this month (6.5 months after it's release), as we know, 7.1%

Gingerbread's adoption was significantly slower than Froyo's, ICS's is slower than Gingerbread's but the difference is not as great.


And frankly that's to be expected - as each new version is launched into a more mature market, it's impact will be lessened: even if the number of devices updated are the same in absolute terms, that will represent a smaller percentage of the market. And that applies to ICS in particular due to it coming a year after Gingerbread instead of the 6 month gap it had from Froyo.
Then factor in, as I have already mentioned, that the move from Gingerbread to ICS is a far bigger leap than from Froyo to Gingerbread and of course it takes longer for OEMs to tailor it for individual handsets' hardware.

So, in fact, yes - all of that is entirely natural and not at all noteworthy.


Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the subject of this thread.
Plus, no matter how slow the adoption of ICS, it's infinitely faster than the rate at which WP7 handsets will be updated to WP8