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Pobol Y Cwm (Part 2)


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Old 28-06-2012, 16:07
sderr123
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Macs said the other night that Izzy gave consent -is he lying?
She agreed to have sex with him. She was coerced into doing so. But as far I am concerned reporting Jinx to the police is not a situation where I would feel obligated to say yes. Jinx violated his parole so Macs could have gone to the police at anytime anyway. As I understand the situation she didn't go to her mother because she had been having consensual affairs with her teachers and didn't want Gaynor to know. She was protecting her behavior by not going to her mother. I think Macs did have legal consent. Whether he had moral consent is another question.

The idea that Macs would have gotten some sort of long prison sentence here is just wrong. He would not have. If Izzy had gone to the police he would have gotten some short sentence and been out. I am not sure that would have produced remorse.

Unless you think that Macs should be convicted of rape. If we are going to say that I think we should be completely aware that the rape law actually uses the word penis. So only men can commit rape. So a man could be sentenced for 8 years for coercing sex and a woman who did the same thing would might not even go to prison at all. \
If you that is fair and non-biased because men are somehow more responsible for sexual assault, I think you are nuts. Its treating people differently based on their gender.
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:02
frannyd
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serdd123
Excuse me but who do you think you are,calling me NUTS. I was only telling other viewers what happened. You have no business insulting me.
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:09
sderr123
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when Macs came back to Cwmderi, he and Jinx were friends, they had a few nights out together where Macs was taking drugs. Macs started to see Izzy and he became very controlling. Izzy finished with Macs and started seeing Jinx. Macs couldn't accept the fact that he and Izzy were finished and he became jealous of Jinx and put drug in his drink. Jinx want to Macs flat to find evidence, Macs came home and he admitted drugging Jinx so Jinx beat him up. Macs recorded it on his computer so he gave Izzy the choice of either sleeping with him or he would turn Jinx into the police. Izzy decided to sleep with Macs and she met him in a hotel room. He did force her to sleep with him in one way, but whether this could be classed as rape I don't know.
But Macs is still guilty of drugging Jinx.
Absolutely the real crime of non-consent was drugging Jinx. It doesn't involve sex so apparently we do think that is as bad.
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:14
sderr123
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serdd123
Excuse me but who do you think you are,calling me NUTS. I was only telling other viewers what happened. You have no business insulting me.
I don't think you are nuts at all. I wasn't responding to your post even. I think that having crimes that sentenced differently based on gender is nuts. You are not nuts, not in any way. I appreciate your posts. Please don't think I meant to insult you. The way I feel has absolutely nothing to do with anything you have ever posted in any way. I actually I agree with you almost all the time. I think our posts were just submitted at the same time.
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:25
welshsarah
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hey sderr wouldnt call you that...
does anyone know is it 6:05 sunday for onibus
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:28
sderr123
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hey sderr wouldnt call you that...
does anyone know is it 6:05 sunday for onibus
No I would never want to intentionally hurt anyone on the forum. Very sorry.
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Old 28-06-2012, 17:35
frannyd
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No I would never want to intentionally hurt anyone on the forum. Very sorry.
Thank you.
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Old 28-06-2012, 18:01
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Thanks for the information. I feel lost in these sorts of discussions as I didn't see all the stuff with Izzy - I only started watching the show last July.

For the long-term viewers, has your opinion on Macs/Scott been influenced by what Macs did (or did not) do to Izzy? It's interesting in a soap that this is the case because usually the victim is seen as completely innocent without even a discussion like the points that have been brought up throughout this storyline.
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Old 28-06-2012, 20:32
kittykat30
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Izzy kept calling it rape tonight. She believes Macs raped her.

At least we saw Scott get some punishment tonight, he's lost Izzy and has to try and deal with his guilt by himself. Poor Izzy though, she is the big loser here. I was proud of Colin tonight when he threatened to kill Scott if he came near his daughter again. It showed a very fatherly side to him like Sion showed yesterday.

As for how long Macs would have served. It's irrelevant if he wouldn't have served as long as Scott. I am sure any prison time would have comforted Izzy, as much as any prison time would have comforted Macs for his rape if he'd been able to handle a trial. Sorry but just because he was raped does not mean he gets a free pass for what Izzy see's as rape, and was basically sexual assault. Morally as well in someways legally. I am sorry he was raped but neither Scott nor he are upstanding men for what they did. One was worse than the other but both are still guilty of sex crimes. There is no if, ands or buts with that. It's 100% the truth.

Just like Gwyneth is a killer and should face punishment for it. The cancer did not give her a free pass.
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Old 28-06-2012, 21:10
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Another great episode. Macs was so calm in the scene in the pub!
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Old 28-06-2012, 22:43
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I was very suprised how calm macs was cos if that was me I be barking at him
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Old 28-06-2012, 22:55
Sez_babe
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I was very suprised how calm macs was cos if that was me I be barking at him
I suppose he knew he had the upper hand....

However, I'm still expecting him to break down at some point....
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Old 28-06-2012, 23:11
sderr123
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Kitkat I didn't say Macs didn't Macs didn't commit a sex crime. I just don't think it was rape and I see real justice problem in treating all sex crimes the same. The reason Macs is getting a free pass (and I don't think he has) is because Izzy made a decision not to prosecute. An old he said she said case about verbal coercion with no witnesses and extremely sympathetic defendant could not be won at this point. You can't use the legal system to provide yourself psychological closure. All lawyers are trained to do is apply legal rules to facts.

The prosecution in criminal case doesn't represent the victim they represent the government. There is an ethical duty to only charge cases that you can win and are that the interests of justice. Maybe this is unfair in certain circumstances. But the likelyhood of conviction, the length of sentence and how likely the defendant is to repeat the crime has be looked at. The most serious crimes have to have priority.

I look at this way, every case brought with dodgy evidence, that you lose undermines public confidence in the legal system to take care of serious crimes. Losing cases is another sex offense not reported. And we need to win these cases, currently the justice is doing a horrible job winning clear cut cases.

Izzy is going to have to find another way to deal with what Macs did. Macs has to do that as well if he chooses not to prosecute. Sometimes you have to live with your choices as hard as that is.
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Old 28-06-2012, 23:12
sderr123
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I suppose he knew he had the upper hand....

However, I'm still expecting him to break down at some point....
Yep, I think that will happen soon.
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Old 28-06-2012, 23:40
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I remember when I started watching the soap last November.
A particular scene which was morning, Danni was living at Dianes.
She and a guy who was shirtless walked downstairs
Did Danni have a one night stand or did Gethin stay at Dianes
Wow I know it was only last November but I honestly can`t recall. I don`t think it was a one night stand.
I bet sderr/kittykat or other PYC fans know.
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Old 28-06-2012, 23:43
kittykat30
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Kitkat I didn't say Macs didn't Macs didn't commit a sex crime. I just don't think it was rape and I see real justice problem in treating all sex crimes the same. The reason Macs is getting a free pass (and I don't think he has) is because Izzy made a decision not to prosecute. An old he said she said case about verbal coercion with no witnesses and extremely sympathetic defendant could not be won at this point. You can't use the legal system to provide yourself psychological closure. All lawyers are trained to do is apply legal rules to facts.

The prosecution in criminal case doesn't represent the victim they represent the government. There is an ethical duty to only charge cases that you can win and are that the interests of justice. Maybe this is unfair in certain circumstances. But the likelyhood of conviction, the length of sentence and how likely the defendant is to repeat the crime has be looked at. The most serious crimes have to have priority.

I look at this way, every case brought with dodgy evidence, that you lose undermines public confidence in the legal system to take care of serious crimes. Losing cases is another sex offense not reported. And we need to win these cases, currently the justice is doing a horrible job winning clear cut cases.

Izzy is going to have to find another way to deal with what Macs did. Macs has to do that as well if he chooses not to prosecute. Sometimes you have to live with your choices as hard as that is.
I studied law in college, sderr. So I know about it

Macs also chose not to prosecute so the same can be said for him. Neither him or Scott deserve no punishment. It's irrelevant whether Scott's offense was worse as it has nothing to do with him. Macs and Izzy are a separate matter, so his rape doesn't mean he should get away with denying he did anything to her. I just hope before she leaves that Macs shows remorse to her, or he is a hypocrite and an ass. It's as simple as that. And he doesn't deserve more sympathy than Izzy does. He doesn't get more from me, they are both victims. But unlike Izzy he did something similar himself in the past.
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Old 28-06-2012, 23:47
kittykat30
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Wow I know it was only last November but I honestly can`t recall. I don`t think it was a one night stand.
I bet sderr/kittykat or other PYC fans know.
I don't recall either lol. It would surely is Gethin, as Dani hasn't slept with anyone since Brandon as far as I know.
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Old 29-06-2012, 01:04
sderr123
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I studied law in college, sderr. So I know about it

Macs also chose not to prosecute so the same can be said for him. Neither him or Scott deserve no punishment. It's irrelevant whether Scott's offense was worse as it has nothing to do with him. Macs and Izzy are a separate matter, so his rape doesn't mean he should get away with denying he did anything to her. I just hope before she leaves that Macs shows remorse to her, or he is a hypocrite and an ass. It's as simple as that. And he doesn't deserve more sympathy than Izzy does. He doesn't get more from me, they are both victims. But unlike Izzy he did something similar himself in the past.
I think the problem was admitting this to Scott. Not really to Izzy. Izzy showed up with his rapist on her arm. Scott is not owed any admission from Macs about anything. You said to me last week Sheryl didn't owe Gethin anything because of the lies and the cheating. So why does Macs owe Scott anything.

My problem with what you said and correct me if I am wrong is that you felt that Macs should make some sort of admission to Scott that what he did to Izzy was the same thing. I don't actually think it was. I don't see why you would owe your rapist, who walked in your house uninvited and locked you in some sort of admission about your past. I don't care how remorseful Scott is.

I have a feeling if Izzy went to Macs without Scott she would get an admission. I got the strong impression Macs wanted to protect Izzy. That's what Izzy should do go talk to Macs. Because her hatred of him has put her in actual danger now on a couple of occasions. It can't go on forever can it. Legally this is done. I think she has been hurting herself.
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Old 29-06-2012, 04:08
wavlovr
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I don't recall either lol. It would surely is Gethin, as Dani hasn't slept with anyone since Brandon as far as I know.
Thinking back, it might have been Iolo
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Old 29-06-2012, 04:19
wavlovr
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I think the problem was admitting this to Scott. Not really to Izzy. Izzy showed up with his rapist on her arm. Scott is not owed any admission from Macs about anything. You said to me last week Sheryl didn't owe Gethin anything because of the lies and the cheating. So why does Macs owe Scott anything.

My problem with what you said and correct me if I am wrong is that you felt that Macs should make some sort of admission to Scott that what he did to Izzy was the same thing. I don't actually think it was. I don't see why you would owe your rapist, who walked in your house uninvited and locked you in some sort of admission about your past. I don't care how remorseful Scott is.



I have a feeling if Izzy went to Macs without Scott she would get an admission. I got the strong impression Macs wanted to protect Izzy. That's what Izzy should do go talk to Macs. Because her hatred of him has put her in actual danger now on a couple of occasions. It can't go on forever can it. Legally this is done. I think she has been hurting herself.
Great post!
Do you know what sderr....I think we have finally seen Izzy act like an adult for the first time in the 4 years I`ve been watching PYC instead of the spoilt madam I`ve always thought her to be. She finally took responsibility for her own actions - even admitting to Scott that a small part of her was glad Macs was raped. And she felt terrible about it, which showed a maturity I have never seen in her before.
Fair play to Colin, he played the protective Father quite well tonight. I felt a bit sorry for Gaynor though when both her daughter and ex hubby turned on her.
Will we see a future affair between Debbi and Colin? They looked quite cozy singing Elton/Kiki on Karaoke.
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Old 29-06-2012, 04:21
wavlovr
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A major plus....no Angela or Gemma
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Old 29-06-2012, 10:50
kittykat30
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I think the problem was admitting this to Scott. Not really to Izzy. Izzy showed up with his rapist on her arm. Scott is not owed any admission from Macs about anything. You said to me last week Sheryl didn't owe Gethin anything because of the lies and the cheating. So why does Macs owe Scott anything.

My problem with what you said and correct me if I am wrong is that you felt that Macs should make some sort of admission to Scott that what he did to Izzy was the same thing. I don't actually think it was. I don't see why you would owe your rapist, who walked in your house uninvited and locked you in some sort of admission about your past. I don't care how remorseful Scott is.

I have a feeling if Izzy went to Macs without Scott she would get an admission. I got the strong impression Macs wanted to protect Izzy. That's what Izzy should do go talk to Macs. Because her hatred of him has put her in actual danger now on a couple of occasions. It can't go on forever can it. Legally this is done. I think she has been hurting herself.
No I didn't say he owed Scott the admission. I said he owed Izzy the admission to confirm to people he had done that to her. He shouldn't get to deny it to people when he wanted Scott to tell the truth. It's hypocritical which is why I had a problem with him not admitting it at that time.

Macs wanted Scott gone, it wasn't especially about protecting Izzy. He just didn't want him in the village or the lives of anyone there. And even if he did protect her it doesn't change the fact that he basically raped her or forced her into sex. It doesn't wipe the slate clean anymore than Scott's apologies or his attempted suicide did. I think it's a bizarre that you keep defending Macs over what he did to Izzy. What he did was disgusting and he shouldn't get no condemnation because he himself was raped. Life doesn't work like that one crime doesn't wipe out another. Legally or morally.

She didn't put himself in danger to spite Macs, you're being melodramatic. She genuninely fell in love with Scott and when she found out he was a rapist she dumped him. As for it being legally over so was the Macs rape issue yet you wanted punishment for that. Double standards are coming in to play here. The viewers should expect to see remorse from him to her, and we should see an apology. It doesn't make any of it okay but that's what he got off Scott so she should get the same. It would at least stop him being a massive hypocrite. Macs rightfully deserved some resolution and so does Izzy. One is not more important than the other. They are both victims who should get some peace of mind. He's had his it's time she had hers. Without making excuses for him or painting him some hero for doing it.
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Old 29-06-2012, 18:28
welshsarah
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no angela for 1 show cant wait til sunday then
when is fifion due ?? please dont letit be like caddo having it forever
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Old 29-06-2012, 20:32
kittykat30
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Ffion said November which you think would alert Jinx on the fact the dates don't fit.

Finally Macs says sorry to Izzy, that's what she deserved and what this storyline needed. I don't blame Izzy for not forgiving him. Though I still don't like the message the writers were sending with that scene. How Macs can claim someone can only do it once and never again, meaning himself, yet Scott is guaranteed to do it again according to him. I am still not happy with the hypocrisy in this storyline. I know it's because they want Macs to stay, but it's the wrong message to send about sexual assaults IMO.

Sheryl and Moc really are more sickening by the episode. I can't wait for that to get found out so we don't have to see them slime around behind everyones backs.
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Old 29-06-2012, 20:44
sderr123
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No I didn't say he owed Scott the admission. I said he owed Izzy the admission to confirm to people he had done that to her. He shouldn't get to deny it to people when he wanted Scott to tell the truth. It's hypocritical which is why I had a problem with him not admitting it at that time.

Macs wanted Scott gone, it wasn't especially about protecting Izzy. He just didn't want him in the village or the lives of anyone there. And even if he did protect her it doesn't change the fact that he basically raped her or forced her into sex. It doesn't wipe the slate clean anymore than Scott's apologies or his attempted suicide did. I think it's a bizarre that you keep defending Macs over what he did to Izzy. What he did was disgusting and he shouldn't get no condemnation because he himself was raped. Life doesn't work like that one crime doesn't wipe out another. Legally or morally.

She didn't put himself in danger to spite Macs, you're being melodramatic. She genuninely fell in love with Scott and when she found out he was a rapist she dumped him. As for it being legally over so was the Macs rape issue yet you wanted punishment for that. Double standards are coming in to play here. The viewers should expect to see remorse from him to her, and we should see an apology. It doesn't make any of it okay but that's what he got off Scott so she should get the same. It would at least stop him being a massive hypocrite. Macs rightfully deserved some resolution and so does Izzy. One is not more important than the other. They are both victims who should get some peace of mind. He's had his it's time she had hers. Without making excuses for him or painting him some hero for doing it.
Izzy hatred of Macs has put her in danger because she got herself involved with some Garry's gangster associates in her desire to get Macs convicted of a crime by framing him. She could have gotten herself and Yvonne killed. That is why she had to leave Cwm Deri.

You and I have a completely different perspective on what happened here. I don't see that anything approaching justice happened here at all. What Scott did to all these people this week I found truly replusive and if I were Macs and Sion it would have made me feel much much worse. I think Scott's need for punishment interfered with the rights of other people.

He forced Macs to listen to his apology, Macs didn't want him there at all. If I had to be in that room and heard what Scott had to say it would have made me feel like a worthless sex object. Scott obviously has some kind of unnatural sexual attraction to Macs. It would not have helped me at all. Yes Macs taped him and got him to leave. But he should never have gotten involved with Izzy and come back in the first place. And if I were Macs I would be worried he would hurt other people.

So no I don't think Izzy is owed the same "justice" as Macs got. I think Macs got nothing but abuse and Izzy is owed much much better than that. It is amazing to me that you think Scott has been truly punished because he lost the woman he loved and is truly remorseful, but Macs has not been punished at all for what he did even though he was very brutally raped by a man who has told him on a number of occasions that the rape was done in punishment for what he did to Izzy, because in your mind he is not remorseful enough.

I think Izzy is owed true remorse and real change. I am sorry I didn't see that from Scott at all. And I see no need for Macs to have to admit what happened to Izzy and him was exactly the same. I think there are real differences here between the two crimes.
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