[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

£250 is hardly 'high end' is it

Cheap Sony stereos are cheaply made as well - it's really kids bedroom stuff (like the TEAC).

I havn't rated Sony for years and even systems in the 90's which had CD players were very unreliable and I would be lucky to get a year from a Sony player.

The only thing I rate from Sony are their seperate tuners (certain models)

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

£250 is hardly 'high end' is it

Cheap Sony stereos are cheaply made as well - it's really kids bedroom stuff (like the TEAC).

A £250 stereo (sans speakers) is hardly low-end when the true low end is £25.

£250 is at the higher end of the mainstream.

The fact that you have to go to the like of Arcam and Linn to reach the next step up kind of proves this.

What you're basically saying is that the Japanese manufacturers, with a few rare exceptions, have *never* been high-end.

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

I havn't rated Sony for years and even systems in the 90's which had CD players were very unreliable and I would be lucky to get a year from a Sony player.

Guess what CD mechanism is in your TEAC?

I'll give you a clue -- it starts with "S", and ends with "ony KSS-213". Most likely the exact same mechanism that was in the 90s Sony.

Oh, and this mechanism has been used by very many £2-3000 CD players as well. And it's also in my modded Bush £25 POS in the kitchen.

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by rjb101

You need to have listen a Nigel, most of these little "shoebox" mini systems are OK. Mostly there 25 - 30 watt rms per channel so there going to struggle in a huge room but the actual sound quality is pretty good in the right sized space.

Your right about the Sony stuff though

I agree.... the Teac is not the only system I have heard that sounds quite good. (I have had seperates over the years that were far more expensive and sound a lot worse)

A few years ago I visited a local high-end audio store (Sound academy) where they had an Arcam system on which cost in the region of £8'000 and I was quite shocked with the audio quality as it sounded as bland and as basic as you could get.

Adding mono-blocks pre-amps and £200+ phono leads is all a myth as this system (for the price) failed to impress me at all.

I truly believe that it is the speakers that give the true definition and quality of a system and every individual appreciates a different type of audio quality.

Some people prefer punchy bass, whilst some prefer lots of midrage and treble etc....

You can spend thousands on a system but if the speakers are mis-matched to your liking, then the whole system will be a poor experience to listen to.

Also there is no point in spending a £1000 on a CD player if it doesn't play half of todays formats....or spending the same amount of money on a tuner if it struggles to recieve 'fringe' area radio stations just because it sounds nice and mellow on 'Classic FM'

Most of these modern mini systems are only made for your average sized room and 25-30 watts is sufficient enough. They are also made to adapt to todays modern formats such as SD card/ USB/ and i-pod etc..of which many people use.

I have never really been into mini systems as such because I have always had seperates and the only reason I have opted for a mini system over the last 4 years is because of space saving and the fact that they play other formats as well as CD.

Having spent hundereds over the years on seperates systems, it is a mine field and it is good to know that these days you can buy an all-in-one system for a fraction of the price that sounds just as good with more facilities than ever before.

[Menoetius]

Originally Posted by jjne

£250 is at the higher end of the mainstream.

That's christmas present or 2nd system / bedroom system money. Cheap and does a job.

In my experience, a £250 all in one is considered to be a basic entry level unit.

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by jjne

Guess what CD mechanism is in your TEAC?

I'll give you a clue -- it starts with "S", and ends with "ony KSS-213". Most likely the exact same mechanism that was in the 90s Sony.

Oh, and this mechanism has been used by very many £2-3000 CD players as well. And it's also in my modded Bush £25 POS in the kitchen.

Noooooooo......

It doesn't surprise me to be honest concerning the transport mechanism.... and even with the basic £25 systems - they have to use the same (or similar) to £2000 players....which makes sense I suppose.

High-end at that price is all a myth and I strongly believe you are paying for the brand name - and nothing else. A laser is a laser of which reads data and depending on the quality of the data on the disc it will only sound as good as the data on the disc itself.

These £2'000 CD players (IMO) are no better than a £200 machine and all these big name manufacturers simply add an internal equaliser of which is tuned to the manufacturers specs...and that is all.

I totally agree with what you say...

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by Menoetius

That's christmas present or 2nd system / bedroom system money. Cheap and does a job.

In my experience, a £250 all in one is considered to be a basic entry level unit.

Not really as you could spend a lot more and get a lot less

[Menoetius]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

Not really as you could spend a lot more and get a lot less

Not if you go to a decent store and get looked after properly.

Since 1994, I've sold millions of pounds worth of kit to tens of thousands of customers. I aim to get the best for my customer every single time.

I don't just chuck a box at the cutomer and hope for the best. I've lost count of the amount of time I've spent in demo rooms comparing cd players, amps, speakers and cables etc.
Not to mention taking kit home, like AV amps, speakers and subs etc to listen to in a proper sitting room.

So, let's have an example of spending more for less...

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

It doesn't surprise me to be honest concerning the transport mechanism.... and even with the basic £25 systems - they have to use the same (or similar) to £2000 players....which makes sense I suppose.

Almost all CD players use Sony KSS type mechs, the second most common (but FAR behind) would be Philips (who have always done their own weird thing anyway). There have been a fairly small number of other manufacturers over the years, but the huge production numbers of Sony mechs mean they aren't really very viable.

Spending silly money on a CD player is one of the more ludicrous ideas

[Deacon1972]

Originally Posted by Menoetius

Not if you go to a decent store and get looked after properly.

Since 1994, I've sold millions of pounds worth of kit to tens of thousands of customers. I aim to get the best for my customer every single time.

I don't just chuck a box at the cutomer and hope for the best. I've lost count of the amount of time I've spent in demo rooms comparing cd players, amps, speakers and cables etc.
Not to mention taking kit home, like AV amps, speakers and subs etc to listen to in a proper sitting room.

So, let's have an example of spending more for less...

Bose...

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Bose...

Or B&O

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Menoetius

That's christmas present or 2nd system / bedroom system money. Cheap and does a job.

In my experience, a £250 all in one is considered to be a basic entry level unit.

Can you show me an all-in-one system, from a mainstream manufacturer, that's considerably more expensive for the same functionality?

If not, my comment stands. You cannot directly compare an all-in-one system with a true component hifi.

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

High-end at that price is all a myth and I strongly believe you are paying for the brand name - and nothing else. A laser is a laser of which reads data and depending on the quality of the data on the disc it will only sound as good as the data on the disc itself.

These £2'000 CD players (IMO) are no better than a £200 machine and all these big name manufacturers simply add an internal equaliser of which is tuned to the manufacturers specs...and that is all.

That's not quite true; sound quality can and is improved greatly by careful component selection, thoughtful PCB layout design and good quality power supplies/regulation.

However it has to be said that once you go much above £1000, a lot of it is snake-oil. And I have a very hard time believing all this stuff about transports making so much difference to sound quality -- the fact is that the signal from a CD transport is clocked, reclocked and reclocked again in a lot of cases, to the point where the inherent jitter is completely different to how it started.

I have a Technics CD player linked to a Chinese-made Wolfson 8741 DAC (cost of DAC £70), which sounds *better* than a £750 Cyrus CD player. Why? Because it's the DAC that mostly dictates sound quality.

CD players are far more affected by the DAC in use, and the quality of the buffering between the output stage and the preamp, than the transport.

As Nigel says the Sony KSS is very well-proven. If your Sony in the 90s failed you were unlucky.

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Almost all CD players use Sony KSS type mechs, the second most common (but FAR behind) would be Philips (who have always done their own weird thing anyway). There have been a fairly small number of other manufacturers over the years, but the huge production numbers of Sony mechs mean they aren't really very viable.

The other one is Sanyo. All three are fine (the Philips being the least reliable IME).

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by jjne

As Nigel says the Sony KSS is very well-proven. If your Sony in the 90s failed you were unlucky.

As almost all CD players out there used Sony lasers, then obviously the majority of faulty lasers were Sony ones

Certainly over the years we must have changed hundreds of them?.

Most problems though are down to dust and dirt, cleaning only helps to a limited extent, as it's dust/dirt actually inside the optical assembly that's the biggest problem.

The other one is Sanyo. All three are fine (the Philips being the least reliable IME).

I think Toshiba did some as well, plus various other less well known companies.

[jjne]

Also bear in mind that you can replace a KSS mech for under a tenner (and it's a very simple job, the hardest part is removing the anti-static solder blob)... so even if they do fail it's no great heartache.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by jjne

Also bear in mind that you can replace a KSS mech for under a tenner (and it's a very simple job, the hardest part is removing the anti-static solder blob)... so even if they do fail it's no great heartache.

Apart from some multi-CD units - some of those are a nightmare to replace.

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Apart from some multi-CD units - some of those are a nightmare to replace.

Yes -- I remember trying to fix up a Pioneer 100 CD multichanger ... never again.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by jjne

Yes -- I remember trying to fix up a Pioneer 100 CD multichanger ... never again.

The Sony 100 CD players aren't bad, it's the mini/micro systems with three or five draws that are the nightmares

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Bose...

I have a vintage pair of Bose 'Studiocraft' speakers on my wall with brackets in the bedroom which sound fantastic.... I had them gave me about a year ago and I once used them for my PC and the TV running through a standard amp.

The treble is enough to rattle your tooth fillings...

Bose ARE good... without question

[Deacon1972]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

I have a vintage pair of Bose 'Studiocraft' speakers on my wall with brackets in the bedroom which sound fantastic.... I had them gave me about a year ago and I once used them for my PC and the TV running through a standard amp.

The treble is enough to rattle your tooth fillings...

Bose ARE good... without question

.....but would you have paid full retail price for them when they were new?

Bose are very expensive and to my ears not very pleasent to listen to, precisely for the reason you gave above, the systems I've heard have been overly bright with very little mid/low range, you seem to pay a premium for the name but the sound quality is very average, to me that's a prime example of spending more for less.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

Bose ARE good... without question

Bose are cheap tat with a VERY expensive price tag

You might have noticed they don't advertise in HiFi magazines, and they don't ever send them for review - they are a joke in the HiFi community.

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

.....but would you have paid full retail price for them when they were new?

Bose are very expensive and to my ears not very pleasent to listen to, precisely for the reason you gave above, the systems I've heard have been overly bright with very little mid/low range, you seem to pay a premium for the name but the sound quality is very average, to me that's a prime example of spending more for less.

Personally...no I wouldn't have paid the full price...but if they were up for sale I would have given around £30 due to the condition.

Bose are like Marmite...you either love or loathe them...but I can't listen to them for long periods due to the high-end treble, and if you take-away the treble, they sound too bass-light.

The thing with Bose is that they are not really hi-fi speakers...they are more 'P.A' type speakers of which are normally found in pubs/ clubs and bars etc...

My local 'Toby' carvery has lots of small Bose speakers in and around the building and I will admit - they sound awful....however, if you listen to some of the later models which have small tweeter boxes and seperate subwoofers....they do sound much better than their cabinet type models.

Not very often do I use mine due to complaints as one speaker is near the window which is normally open so you can imagine due to the high-end treble how far the acoustics will travel.

[jjne]

Originally Posted by Gary Brenton

The thing with Bose is that they are not really hi-fi speakers...they are more 'P.A' type speakers of which are normally found in pubs/ clubs and bars etc...

That's absolutely no reason to charge as much as Bose do!

Give me a nice, reasonably priced Tannoy, KEF, old Rogers etc speaker any day of the week.

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by jjne

That's absolutely no reason to charge as much as Bose do!

Give me a nice, reasonably priced Tannoy, KEF, old Rogers etc speaker any day of the week.

Well my main speakers are Tannoy Mercury F3's of which are a little more bearable on the ears (and teeth)