[NewWorldMan]

For those who may think Microsoft does not respond to customer feedback I thought it would be useful to summarise Microsoft's responses as the preview versions of Visual Studio 2012 have appeared in the past few months. It just shows they can be moved. Though you have to wonder what they were thinking. It seems they were wanting to browbeat us into doing exclusively Windows 8 metro development!

1. Create minimalist UI (overrated and patronising IMO) with monochrome and all caps tool windows.
2. Respond to massive negative feedback and add back some colour but then make menu all caps instead.
3. Respond to massive negative feedback, stick with all caps menu to provide “structure” and align with other MS products (but not all) and promise to add an option to turn off all caps (already provided independently by registry hack or add-in).
4. Drop desktop dev options from VS Express line and make Metro-only.
5. Respond to massive negative feedback by announcing VS Express Desktop for C#, VB, C++.
6. Remove C++ compiler from Windows SDK.
7. Respond to massive negative feedback by announcing VS Express Desktop which will include the C++ compiler.
8. Drop XP targeting for native code even though 30% of businesses are still on XP and native developer customers of MS have far too many customers who are still on XP, so can’t move to C++ 11 (latest standard).
9. Respond to massive negative feedback by promising to deliver XP targeting post RTM.
10. Confirm that XP targeting will be made available this fall (presumably as part of VS 2012 unless VS 2012 RTMs before then). XP targeting wll also be supported by VS Express Desktop.

[Maxatoria]

given xp is supported till 2014 they should of held off till then before trying to drop compiler support to keep it consistent with the operating system support, and dropping C++ support must of been a friday after lunch time at the pub decision

[Roush]

Mainstream support for Windows XP ended in 2009.

Extended support runs through until 2014, but that's purely for bug fixes and security updates.

My employer is one of the companies still using XP, and we've already had a couple of our software partners tell us they are retiring support for XP, and I personally feel it's the right time for MS to start encouraging developers to move on.

[IvanIV]

VS2010 and previous versions will still target XP anyway. You could have them side-by-side, I have VS2003, 2005, and 2010.

[whoever,hey]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

VS2010 and previous versions will still target XP anyway. You could have them side-by-side, I have VS2003, 2005, and 2010.

We still have active projects running on 2005. Thanks to certain third party support lacking for the latest dev studios.

[DotNetWill]

I'm more interested in VS2012 not having VS2010s performance issues.

[whoever,hey]

Originally Posted by DotNetWill

I'm more interested in VS2012 not having VS2010s performance issues.

Is it just me that has to close a solution before closing VS otherwise it hangs?

[DotNetWill]

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

Is it just me that has to close a solution before closing VS otherwise it hangs?

Not seen that one but I sometimes have to kill VS when it gets stuck in building intellisense database wait dialog.

And don't even get me started on TFS integration.

[Gormond]

Is removing C++ such a bad thing? It's a horrible language compared to use IMO.

[IvanIV]

Originally Posted by DotNetWill

Not seen that one but I sometimes have to kill VS when it gets stuck in building intellisense database wait dialog.

And don't even get me started on TFS integration.

I have to restart it when suddenly intellisense gets stupid and stops recognizing some/most classes. But I have no performance problems.

[IvanIV]

Originally Posted by Gormond

Is removing C++ such a bad thing? It's a horrible language compared to use IMO.

I have to fix something in older MFC project after programming almost exclusively in C# lately and C++ does feel strange now, but it's not a bad language. And I still think that throwing pointers, new-s, and delete-s at programmers was a good way to weed them out. That's not going to happen in managed code. It simplifies things, references and garbage collection is nice, but one may end up with half an application rooted and objects not going away, because they hold each other and a weaker programmer does not know why and how. Managed code got rid of some problems, but brought new ones, too.

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

I have to fix something in older MFC project after programming almost exclusively in C# lately and C++ does feel strange now, but it's not a bad language. And I still think that throwing pointers, new-s, and delete-s at programmers was a good way to weed them out. That's not going to happen in managed code. It simplifies things, references and garbage collection is nice, but one may end up with half an application rooted and objects not going away, because they hold each other and a weaker programmer does not know why and how. Managed code got rid of some problems, but brought new ones, too.

Maybe my issue is that I learned Java and C++ at the same time and I much prefered Java, it's just such a user friendly language along with C#.

[NewWorldMan]

Originally Posted by IvanIV

VS2010 and previous versions will still target XP anyway. You could have them side-by-side, I have VS2003, 2005, and 2010.

Yes, but re: C++ many customers wanted to be able to use C++ 11 features, not to mention compiler bug fixes to target XP. VS 2010 was no good in this respect. If you are doing managed code you could still target XP from VS 2012.

[NewWorldMan]

Originally Posted by Gormond

Is removing C++ such a bad thing? It's a horrible language compared to use IMO.

They never "removed C++" but whether the language is horrible or not the fact is that there is tons of existing code out there written in C++ that must be maintained and enhanced. Plus, of course, there are many types of application where there is no realistic alternative to C++.

[NewWorldMan]

Originally Posted by Roush

My employer is one of the companies still using XP, and we've already had a couple of our software partners tell us they are retiring support for XP, and I personally feel it's the right time for MS to start encouraging developers to move on.

It's not developers that need to be encouraged. The feedback was that developers themselves have no issue with the fact that VS 2012 requires a Windows 7 or Vista host. It's the fact that they have large customer bases still stuck on XP. If they just abandon them then they lose revenue. Therefore, the devs are forced to stick with VS 2010 and have to forgo any outstanding bug fixes as well as language and compiler improvements. So MS itself loses those devs as customers for a few years - probably until at least 2014.

I saw some stats which said that with past Visual Studios, when MS dropped targeting support for an old OS, e.g., Windows 98, Windows 2000, the installed base at the time was in single digit percentage. But for XP (victim of its own success) this is not the case and usage is 30% or so.