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Old 30-06-2012, 15:08
DaisyBumbleroot
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Do the costs of border agencies and HMRC outweigh the benefits that they bring to the country?

I can't understand why the government doesn't double or triple the staff of these agencies.

It means more staff can get to more dodgy companies (like takeaways etc) employing illegals, shutting them down and fining them, hopefully causing legit companies to take their place, who will employ people with the right credentials and who will pay their taxes etc. Other dodgy people then may think twice about importing slaves and opening shitty, piss taking businesses.

Same with HMRC, more people auditing and collecting taxes must surely bring in more money than emlpoying extra people. Plus all those new jobs created = more money to spend.

What am I missing?
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:11
Nick1966
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To what the Germans do: introduce compulsory ID cards to be carried at all times.

Doubles your chances of catching those who are not permitted in the country: once at the border and again when they are in the United Kingdom.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:19
jassi
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Do the costs of border agencies and HMRC outweigh the benefits that they bring to the country?

I can't understand why the government doesn't double or triple the staff of these agencies.

It means more staff can get to more dodgy companies (like takeaways etc) employing illegals, shutting them down and fining them, hopefully causing legit companies to take their place, who will employ people with the right credentials and who will pay their taxes etc. Other dodgy people then may think twice about importing slaves and opening shitty, piss taking businesses.

Same with HMRC, more people auditing and collecting taxes must surely bring in more money than emlpoying extra people. Plus all those new jobs created = more money to spend.

What am I missing?
You're forgetting the Tory mantra - private good, public bad
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:26
reglip
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Lowering the power of the state. Big business is pro immigration anyway and these governments serve them not us
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:29
Kiko H Fan
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To what the Germans do: introduce compulsory ID cards to be carried at all times.

Doubles your chances of catching those who are not permitted in the country: once at the border and again when they are in the United Kingdom.
Wasn't there a teensy weensy bit of an uproar when Labour suggested ID cards?
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:41
Nick1966
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Wasn't there a teensy weensy bit of an uproar when Labour suggested ID cards?
Yes, sections of British public appear not to want ID cards. But may not appear to accept the consequences of this desire.

With a long coastline, speaking English and having no ID cards, may mean its easier to arrive and then remain in the United Kingdom undetected.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:44
Sniffle774
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Yes, sections of British public appear not to want ID cards. But may not appear to accept the consequences of this desire.

With a long coastline, speaking English and having no ID cards, may mean its easier to arrive and then remain in the United Kingdom undetected.
Or just check everyone coming in ?
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:45
Annsyre
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To what the Germans do: introduce compulsory ID cards to be carried at all times.

Doubles your chances of catching those who are not permitted in the country: once at the border and again when they are in the United Kingdom.
And makes an absolute fortune for ID card forgers.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:46
jassi
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Wasn't there a teensy weensy bit of an uproar when Labour suggested ID cards?
There might have been less objection if we hadn't had to pay for the pleasure of owning one + renewal fees evrey few years.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:46
Nick1966
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Or just check everyone coming in ?
UKBF do that anyway.

If you really want to get into United Kingdom undetected, you can. Without ID cards, its easier to remain in the United Kingdom undetected.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:47
Annsyre
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Wasn't there a teensy weensy bit of an uproar when Labour suggested ID cards?
Blair said last week in an interview that he still thought that they were a good idea. I've still got the one issued to me in WWII.

If you did not have an ID card then you could not register with the Ministry of Food to get a ration card. So you got no food.

Perhaps modern day ID cards could be linked to present day government agencies?
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:49
Nick1966
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And makes an absolute fortune for ID card forgers.
Yep, there will forged ID cards. Just as there are forged passports in circulation.

Those using forged ID cards face criminal prosecution.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:53
Nick1966
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Blair said last week in an interview that he still thought that they were a good idea. I've still got the one issued to me in WWII.

If you did not have an ID card then you could not register with the Ministry of Food to get a ration card. So you got no food.

Perhaps modern day ID cards could be linked to present day government agencies?
An ID card would have your photo, name and address, date of birth and national insurance number. Being in possession of an ID card confirms that you are permitted to reside in the United Kingdom. And presenting your ID card to benefit agencies would permit you to benefits where you are legally entitled to them.
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:58
reglip
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Yes, sections of British public appear not to want ID cards. But may not appear to accept the consequences of this desire.

With a long coastline, speaking English and having no ID cards, may mean its easier to arrive and then remain in the United Kingdom undetected.
It wasnt the concept of ID cards people objected to it was the "super" database it utilized in the background the scope of which went far beyond an ordinary ID card
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Old 30-06-2012, 16:05
Nick1966
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It wasnt the concept of ID cards people objected to it was the "super" database it utilized in the background the scope of which went far beyond an ordinary ID card
Absolutely.

An ID card need only confirm residency and entitlement to benefit. I've seen German ID cards: there's no magnetic strip or hidden data. It's little more than the backpage of your passport plus your national insurance number.

And forging an ID card would be pointless. As every ID card would have the cardholder's national insurance and photo, the police would spot those using cards with erroneous national insurance numbers.

If you duplicated a genuine card with a genuine national insurance number, the police would spot this because there would be two cards in circulation with same name and same national insurance number.
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Old 30-06-2012, 16:12
Annsyre
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An ID card would have your photo, name and address, date of birth and national insurance number. Being in possession of an ID card confirms that you are permitted to reside in the United Kingdom. And presenting your ID card to benefit agencies would permit you to benefits where you are legally entitled to them.
I know the arguments for them.

But I am convinced that all that would happen is that identity fraud would rocket.

The government has appalling record for failures in IT, losing data and never catching illegals immigrants.
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Old 30-06-2012, 16:14
Annsyre
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Absolutely.

An ID card need only confirm residency and entitlement to benefit. I've seen German ID cards: there's no magnetic strip or hidden data. It's little more than the backpage of your passport plus your national insurance number.

And forging an ID card would be pointless. As every ID card would have the cardholder's national insurance and photo, the police would spot those using cards with erroneous national insurance numbers.

If you duplicated a genuine card with a genuine national insurance number, the police would spot this because there would be two cards in circulation with same name and same national insurance number.
They have never caught the short black person in Manchester who was using my tall white son's NI number and it caused him huge problems.
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Old 30-06-2012, 16:15
ItJustMyOpinion
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Do the costs of border agencies and HMRC outweigh the benefits that they bring to the country?

I can't understand why the government doesn't double or triple the staff of these agencies.

It means more staff can get to more dodgy companies (like takeaways etc) employing illegals, shutting them down and fining them, hopefully causing legit companies to take their place, who will employ people with the right credentials and who will pay their taxes etc. Other dodgy people then may think twice about importing slaves and opening shitty, piss taking businesses.
What am I missing?
Migration staff 'played solitaire rather than hunt for foreigners taking part in sham marriages'

Immigration officials played solitaire on their computers instead of hunting for foreigners taking part in sham marriages, a tribunal heard yesterday.

Mr Sprague, 59, a former chief immigration officer, told the employment tribunal: ‘I was singled out because of my reluctance to ignore serious organised criminal activities in relation to bogus sham marriages.

‘I wanted action taken, but the department wanted to brush the scandal under the carpet and wanted me out of the way.

‘Some members of the unit found it difficult to do any real motivated work. Some were quite happy to sit on their computers playing solitaire and similar games rather than working.’

Mr Sprague joined the Home Office in 2001 after 25 years as a uniformed officer and detective with the Metropolitan Police. He earned £26,000 a year working for the Border Control Crime Team, now known as National Tactical Operations.

Things began to go wrong after Jill Smith, the head of the BCCT, twice promoted investigator Tony Buswell in a short time.

Neither job was advertised and Janet Griffiths, a Border Agency inspector, told the hearing she had never known such a quick double promotion in more than 20 years in the service.

Mr Sprague told the tribunal in Croydon, South London, that Mr Buswell’s accelerated promotion ‘annoyed’ most of the staff and that they disliked his ‘cocky attitude’.

Things deteriorated further after his unit was asked to investigate a few cases of sham marriages by foreigners. ‘It was obvious there was serious organised criminal activity occurring,’ he said.

‘I had great difficulty in getting Buswell and Smith to show any interest. They begrudgingly allowed us to investigate some cases already known about, but they did not want new cases investigated.’

Another inquiry unit based with them in Croydon could have investigated but showed ‘little interest’, he said. ‘It was easier to turn a blind eye.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1zI1PDLSZ
Immigration control at the front line during the New Labour era I suppose. Take note Yvette Cooper, next time you criticise the governments immigration policy in practice. Compared to what went on in your era, its border control is a smooth efficient operation.
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Old 30-06-2012, 16:16
Nick1966
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The government has appalling record for .... never catching illegals immigrants.
No wonder people come to the United Kingdom. Our government are incapable of catching them.

Think that says more about the British government than those who chose to come to this country without permission.
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Old 30-06-2012, 17:06
Annsyre
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No wonder people come to the United Kingdom. Our government are incapable of catching them.

Think that says more about the British government than those who chose to come to this country without permission.
The outcome is the same.
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Old 30-06-2012, 17:31
ItJustMyOpinion
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Originally Posted by Mail

The Mr Big making a mockery out of the so-called immigration crackdown: Kurdish gangmaster will smuggle people into Britain for £2,000

So how do these illegal people-trafficking operations — of which there are many — work?

The system depends on the large communities of migrants already settled in Britain and who are willing to pay cash to get their relatives or friends to join them.

‘They call England “Hope Land”,’ Fahruddin explained. ‘None of the migrants here — whether they come from Iran, or Iraq, from Afghanistan, China or Turkey — want to settle in mainland Europe. They only want to go to England.’
Fahruddin outlined in detail to Mr A and Rojda the two ways he could get her across the Channel.

First, there was the cheaper Option A. This would involve her father sending relatives in England £2,000 in cash to hand to a middle-man contact of Fahruddin’s at a supermarket in Wood Green.

Once the cash was handed over, Fahruddin would be told via mobile phone and he would then proceed to put Rojda on a lorry. Under this option, the driver would be totally unaware of his illicit human cargo.
Alternatively there is the more expensive Option B which, he said, had a greater guarantee of success. Fahruddin explained that Rojda’s family would have to give £6,000 to the same Wood Green supermarket contact.

She would then be put in a lorry whose driver would be aware of the smuggling attempt since he would get a share of the money if the passage was successful.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1zIKqi5bK
Everyone wants to come to Britain and not the rest of the EU it seems. Why not just stay in France?

I tracked down, for example, the three Turks who paid Fahruddin £9,500 to get to England ten days ago. They had reached his camp after a 2,000-mile journey in a vegetable lorry from Gazientep, a Turkish city near the Syrian border.

They are now part of the rapidly growing Turkish community in Britain, which tops 500,000 in London alone.

The trio included a young husband and wife, aged 27 and 24, who are now settling in Hackney, East London.

The husband, a carpenter, has already started work on the black market at a relative’s supermarket while his wife, who speaks only Kurdish, is still recovering from the 40-day journey across Europe.

The third member of the trio — a 24-year-old woman — is a friend of the couple. She is now living in a relative’s flat in North London with her husband, who was smuggled into Britain on a lorry from Calais several years ago.

They told Mr A how they got to Britain. The money was provided by a relative called Ibrahim, who deposited the money to pay Fahruddin with another North London supermarket contact.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1zIMbQuh5
So that's how it works. Its settled migrants in this country who are paying the smugglers to bring in their relatives illegally. Once their here, they employee them in family businesses.
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Old 30-06-2012, 17:37
Nick1966
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Why not just stay in France?
[LIST][*]We don't have ID cards[*]We speak english[*]Black economy[*]Useless UKBF[/LIST]
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Old 30-06-2012, 17:38
Nick1966
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The outcome is the same.
Yes it is.

Depends which way around the causal relationship is.
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Old 01-07-2012, 15:42
DaisyBumbleroot
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You're forgetting the Tory mantra - private good, public bad
HMRC and border agency aren't private are they? Doesn't the government employ these?

No wonder people come to the United Kingdom. Our government are incapable of catching them.

Think that says more about the British government than those who chose to come to this country without permission.
That's my point, I believe it's because they are all understaffed, so increasing staff would surely start to catch more people and deter more people at the same time?
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Old 01-07-2012, 15:52
skp20040
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Yes, sections of British public appear not to want ID cards. But may not appear to accept the consequences of this desire.

With a long coastline, speaking English and having no ID cards, may mean its easier to arrive and then remain in the United Kingdom undetected.
My personal objection to the ID card was the way the previous government tried to bring them in, by jumping on the alcohol bandwgaon and making people of 25 to 30 show ID to buy wine etc , they tried to bring them in via the backdoor by making shopping a hassle and making us feel life would be easier with them. My other objection was the fact that the operation to implement and maintain the rgeister of Id cards was to be overseen by a private French company and not a goverment department.

Do it right and use them for a valid purpose then many people would not object.
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