[chopoff]

Turns out 2160p TVs are on the market already.

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/toshiba...87020-pdt.html

[Rich_L]

Let's buy two.

[jim_uk]

£7000 for a tele? they can keep that.

[Gormond]

The biggest advantage of 4K TVs ATM is that you can get 1080p passive 3D which isn't available with 1080p passive TVs.

[jim_uk]

Originally Posted by chopoff

Yeah, I meant have games at 1080p, not being able to output at 1080p.

Take a look at Beyond, The Last of Us.

If someone slapped that in front of you seven years ago and said this console with these specs will let you play this game you'd probably have said codswallop, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that.

So you have to not only think of what the new console would be capable of on day one, but capable of in 6-8 years time.

I'm not saying we'll see stuff like the Elemental demo running at 3D 2160p, but we'll see 2160p games of that I've no doubt.

Whilst many games are 720 or lower native, some games are not, so you can't dismiss the argument by saying not all games are bla bla when there are some that are, just not all of them.

I never said all games will be pumping out 2160p and look like you've just walked into an IMAX cinema. I said it'll introduce 2160p.

A console capable of rendering a game 2160p at any decent level of quality will have to have one hell of a GPU in it, high end PCs can do it with multiple GPUs or top of line single GPUs but the cost of those are horrendous.

The global economy isn't going to pick up any time soon, in fact it's still getting worse. Sonys choices are limited, putting out a £400+ console in this climate would be suicidal and their ability to subsidise the thing is limited because the company itself is serious trouble. The only sensible option is to keep costs down in the first place, the rumoured specs suggest that is exactly what they plan to do. The rumoured HD 7670 or 6670 (same thing) makes sense, it'll do 1080p with some limitations but it will really struggle with anything any higher unless you start cutting back elsewhere, view distance ect. For higher resolutions it would have to upscale leading once again to the blurry images we get from the current generation.

[jjesso123]

Originally Posted by jim_uk

A console capable of rendering a game 2160p at any decent level of quality will have to have one hell of a GPU in it, high end PCs can do it with multiple GPUs or top of line single GPUs but the cost of those are horrendous.

The global economy isn't going to pick up any time soon, in fact it's still getting worse. Sonys choices are limited, putting out a £400+ console in this climate would be suicidal and their ability to subsidise the thing is limited because the company itself is serious trouble. The only sensible option is to keep costs down in the first place, the rumoured specs suggest that is exactly what they plan to do. The rumoured HD 7670 or 6670 (same thing) makes sense, it'll do 1080p with some limitations but it will really struggle with anything any higher unless you start cutting back elsewhere, view distance ect. For higher resolutions it would have to upscale leading once again to the blurry images we get from the current generation.

A single GPU can do ? ATI are the only ones who allow multiple monitors on one GPU and at 5760x1080 you can get about 30 maybe 40fps without AA less needy games, but BF3 at that resolution no chance, get neaer to 2560p PC blows up lol.

[jim_uk]

Originally Posted by jjesso123

A single GPU can do ? ATI are the only ones who allow multiple monitors on one GPU and at 5760x1080 you can get about 30 maybe 40fps without AA less needy games, but BF3 at that resolution no chance, get neaer to 2560p PC blows up lol.

Oh you can do huge resolutions if you turn the eye candy down but personally I prefer the eye candy, I have 2 1920x1200 monitors and I'm not even tempted to buy a third. Talking of blowing the PC up, I picked up a HD7970 and thought I'd see how far I could push it. I installed GTA4, disabled the settings limits, cranked everything up full, added ENB with just about everything enabled and started the game. The game looked absolutely stunning, I could see cars and people from miles away, the level of detail didn't drop at all in the distance and the lighting was jaw dropping. The only problem was the 8 FPS.

[chopoff]

Originally Posted by jim_uk

The global economy isn't going to pick up any time soon, in fact it's still getting worse. Sonys choices are limited, putting out a £400+ console in this climate would be suicidal and their ability to subsidise the thing is limited because the company itself is serious trouble.

Every time I see someone say something along the lines of 'no they can't release a console now... the economy...' it makes me annoyed.

Look at the iPhone. Look at the iPad. Hell, even sales of new cars are doing surprisingly well considering 'the economy' we are in.

These Apple devices cost ginormous amounts of money compared to what they should, and yet the latest iPhone has sold bucket loads, I believe from memory way more than any of the previous models.

And yet it was launched during this so-called terrible economy.

You would think instead that people would be plumping for Nokia 3310s and cheap Chinese tablets - but for some reason they're not. (although that said, I have a cheap Chinese tablet and damn good it is too )

So if Apple can sell the all these iPhones at a similar cost, there's no reason why a console can't do the same, so long as it is desirable enough.

Now, granted people don't often buy the iPhone sim-free, they'll get it free on a ridiculously inflated line rental deal.

Enter Microsoft's recent deal. The $99 Xbox with monthly payments.

They said the trial went successfully and will be more widely available soon. A pre-cursor to the 720's purchasing options I reckon.

If you've not seen it, basically you pay $99 for the 360 with Kinect and then $15 a month, which also gives you Xbox LIVE Gold and is a 2 year contract.

So $460 vs. $420 which is the cost upfront.

[jjesso123]

The economy is not really factor for the entertainment industry as it's done amazingly even through these tough times. The state of Sony though could be a problem, however they've got lots of reserves I here, and they did spend nearly half billion today so think there Ok for time being.

[Davonator]

I'm quite cynical about new consoles, I get the impression the focus now isn't 'lets make the best gaming experience possible' it's more 'lets make the console a platform to proliferate our other tech and software.'

The PS3 was media orientated but my theory is it''ll go a step further. The PS4 won't just be designed to play your games it will be designed to communicate with your phone, smart TV, PC, handheld, tablet and link them all.....but to get the most out of it you'll have to buy a Sony phone a Sony smart TV, a Vaio laptop etc.

MS surely have got plans for expanding this too. Smartglass, Kinect Windows 8 and their Windows phone will surely all bridge together and have interoperability with the next XBOX.

for the next console war I think Sony and MS will be competing for a kind of full spectrum dominance of your social media and entertainment.

At E3 and the like there's always a huge spiel about trying to make consoles the hub of your home and trying to create new interactive and social networks, on the go too.I think that's only going to increase.

I personally only really want a games machine when i buy a console....I don't want it to talk to my phone or to wirelessly sync to my photos from my PC , or to create social networks. I want it to play games, be able to play online and to play my DVDs/Blu-Rays....thats about it.

[chopoff]

Originally Posted by jjesso123

The economy is not really factor for the entertainment industry as it's done amazingly even through these tough times. The state of Sony though could be a problem, however they've got lots of reserves I here, and they did spend nearly half billion today so think there Ok for time being.

Yep and they have good cash flow, which is the important part.

Got to spend money to make money as they say outside of the prostitution society.

[whoever,hey]

Originally Posted by 2Dshmuplover

The 2160p thing is 100% not going to happen. 1080p if we are lucky. We're not even using our 1080p sets to their fullest ability yet! I don't know a single person who owns a HDTV that can display a resolution higher than 1080p. It's not going to happen.

PCs haven't struggled in the slightest with this for a while now, so a NG console shouldn't.

[zx50]

Originally Posted by xmodz10

Is there, anything the next gen consoles will have that will make them better, i cant.

ps3 is already 3d compatible, so what can they actually improve on.

they havent made a better bigger storage media then blu ray at the moment.

Obviously better graphics. Unless you're talking about new features that the previous games console didn't have. If so, then I doubt it. The graphics for the PS4 should be mindblowing, but I suspect they'll just increase the detail by so much over each console. It would be great to have graphics like the CGI they put in films. I suppose they've just got to give us a bit at a time in order to sell their consoles. I think there'll only be bigger discs when there's a new resolution/high definition gets released. Whenever that will be though.

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by zx50

Obviously better graphics. Unless you're talking about new features that the previous games console didn't have. If so, then I doubt it. The graphics for the PS4 should be mindblowing, but I suspect they'll just increase the detail by so much over each console. It would be great to have graphics like the CGI they put in films. I suppose they've just got to give us a bit at a time in order to sell their consoles. I think there'll only be bigger discs when there's a new resolution/high definition gets released. Whenever that will be though.

There is BDXL that allows storage of up to 128GB, more than enough for high res textures.

[jim_uk]

Originally Posted by chopoff

Every time I see someone say something along the lines of 'no they can't release a console now... the economy...' it makes me annoyed.

Look at the iPhone. Look at the iPad. Hell, even sales of new cars are doing surprisingly well considering 'the economy' we are in.

These Apple devices cost ginormous amounts of money compared to what they should, and yet the latest iPhone has sold bucket loads, I believe from memory way more than any of the previous models.

And yet it was launched during this so-called terrible economy.

You would think instead that people would be plumping for Nokia 3310s and cheap Chinese tablets - but for some reason they're not. (although that said, I have a cheap Chinese tablet and damn good it is too )

So if Apple can sell the all these iPhones at a similar cost, there's no reason why a console can't do the same, so long as it is desirable enough.

Now, granted people don't often buy the iPhone sim-free, they'll get it free on a ridiculously inflated line rental deal.

Enter Microsoft's recent deal. The $99 Xbox with monthly payments.

They said the trial went successfully and will be more widely available soon. A pre-cursor to the 720's purchasing options I reckon.

If you've not seen it, basically you pay $99 for the 360 with Kinect and then $15 a month, which also gives you Xbox LIVE Gold and is a 2 year contract.

So $460 vs. $420 which is the cost upfront.

None of those are sold at a loss, in fact the mark up for Apple products is over 100%, they also sell a lot more of them.

Originally Posted by jjesso123

The economy is not really factor for the entertainment industry as it's done amazingly even through these tough times. The state of Sony though could be a problem, however they've got lots of reserves I here, and they did spend nearly half billion today so think there Ok for time being.

The economy is very much a factor, they couldn't shift PS3's for £400+ in the middle of a boom, they certainly won't now or in the foreseeable future. Sony entertainment is doing fine but the rest of the company is a disaster area, it won't be long before their debt is greater than their cash reserve. If they carry on as they are their low stock price and shiny patent portfolio is going to make them a target, Apple, Samsung, Google or Microsoft could easily snap them up. Given the terrible state of the company are stock holders going to take yet more loses?

The sensible approach is not to play catch up with high end gaming PCs but to come up with a product that improves on current hardware without pricing themselves out of the market or saddling themselves with several years of loses.

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

PCs haven't struggled in the slightest with this for a while now, so a NG console shouldn't.

A 6670 will if they don't compromise elsewhere.

[2Dshmuplover]

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

PCs haven't struggled in the slightest with this for a while now, so a NG console shouldn't.

Even disregarding the fact that PC's can do this, I never disputed that. The fact is it's not practical for home consoles or HDTV's for the mainstream, not now and not in 5 years time either. I hate to repeat myself but we aren't even using 1080p sets at native resolution yet, that alone will give a huge boost to graphical fidelity. No need for TV's to be a generation ahead of consoles again and having to upscale everything.

I also think anyone expecting monster specs from next gen MS/Sony consoles are in for a bit of a rude awakening. I think they will be powerful but not to the levels some people are suggesting in this thread.

[jjesso123]

Originally Posted by jim_uk

The economy is very much a factor, they couldn't shift PS3's for £400+ in the middle of a boom, they certainly won't now or in the foreseeable future. Sony entertainment is doing fine but the rest of the company is a disaster area, it won't be long before their debt is greater than their cash reserve. If they carry on as they are their low stock price and shiny patent portfolio is going to make them a target, Apple, Samsung, Google or Microsoft could easily snap them up. Given the terrible state of the company are stock holders going to take yet more loses?

The sensible approach is not to play catch up with high end gaming PCs but to come up with a product that improves on current hardware without pricing themselves out of the market or saddling themselves with several years of loses.

I don't think anyone is expecting them release a £425 console again. It does not need to be £425, as I'm sure it won't be repeating there daft mistakes with the cell then needing XDR ram, then getting ripped of with the GPU.

They can also do BC with there new cloud service, lowering cost even more. Allowing them focus on each part and get everything equally on par.

Now Sony yeah there really bad way no sugar coating it. they could collapse, get bought what ever. There restructuring lets give bit of time and see if they can improve before writing them off, as at the moment there is no chance anything is happening far in next year.

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by The_One

N-spec WiFi instead of G spec. For faster internet wireless speeds.

Only N? I hope that they put AC in it considering it likely won't be out till 2014.

[chopoff]

Originally Posted by jim_uk

None of those are sold at a loss, in fact the mark up for Apple products is over 100%, they also sell a lot more of them.

Unless I'm missing something I don't see what that profit margin has to do with anything I said?

What has Apple's profit margin got to do with how many iPhones are sold.

If people are buying over-priced items in their droves, like the iPhone, iPad etc then people are obviously not frightened to 'splash the cash' so long as the item is desirable to them.

For that reason it is wrong to say that a console wouldn't sell for £400 because of 'the economy'. People are spending that money on entertainment items already.

[Hotbird]

Originally Posted by chopoff

For that reason it is wrong to say that a console wouldn't sell for £400 because of 'the economy'. People are spending that money on entertainment items already.

If you remember back to the PS3 launch you'll remember people were put off at the cost of the machine, people regularly complained that £425 was too much for a console. In fact the price of the system was one of the main sticks used to beat Sony and Playstation with at the time.

The other problem for Sony is that the PS3 cost something like £700 at launch, Sony basically paid the extra money to keep the actual sale price low. Apple products are all sold at a profit meaning they lose nothing on each unit sold, Sony have money problems and may not be able to sell their console at a loss this time and even if they do they certainly wont be able to take as big a hit per system as they did for the PS3.

[chopoff]

Originally Posted by Hotbird

If you remember back to the PS3 launch you'll remember people were put off at the cost of the machine, people regularly complained that £425 was too much for a console. In fact the price of the system was one of the main sticks used to beat Sony and Playstation with at the time.

The other problem for Sony is that the PS3 cost something like £700 at launch, Sony basically paid the extra money to keep the actual sale price low. Apple products are all sold at a profit meaning they lose nothing on each unit sold, Sony have money problems and may not be able to sell their console at a loss this time and even if they do they certainly wont be able to take as big a hit per system as they did for the PS3.

Yeah - for sure - but again. Apple has no problem shifting vast amounts of their devices for upwards of £400.

Why? It is desirable.

There is no reason a console will not sell for £400 in large amounts. It just has to be desirable.

And going from the leaked 720 document these things are going to become so much more than a console. They're going to be vying to be the only box you have in your living room.

When you consider that all you'll need is the one box to watch live or on-demand TV, stream or play your movies, play games, listen to millions of tracks, or surf the web suddenly that £400 seems a lot better value.

The 720 document mentioned DVR, a sign that it may even have 'proper' TV included.

As for Sony's money problems - see the comments above - their cash flow is good, they just have deep debt. This appears manageable for now at least given the amount of millions they've been slinging about in recent weeks with their purchases and what-not.

Personally - yes - it is high, I would expect lower, but, it isn't beyond reason.