[Listentome]

Originally Posted by rickideeuk

I initially thought this as well, but on second viewing it now seems to make more sense that the kidnapping happened during the 3 months between TIA and DotM.

That's why Amy wants to tell the Doctor she's pregnant in TIA (because it's really her and she really is). Then in DotM she's now the Ganger and no longer believes she's pregnant (because Gangers can't get up the duff and she'd be starting to show by then) hence the scanner being confused between pregnant and not-pregnant!

That would make sense, but The Doctor says she was kidnapped before America. Whilst a Ganger may not be able to get pregnant, it is linked to the real Amy, so would no doubt be feeling a 'phantom' pregnancy.

[Collins1965]

Can someone explain why the Doctor destroyed the ganger Amy with no qualms whatsoever after arguing strenuously that gangers were sentient beings and to be treated with respect in The Rebel Flesh?????

[CD93]

Originally Posted by Collins1965

Can someone explain why the Doctor destroyed the ganger Amy with no qualms whatsoever after arguing strenuously that gangers were sentient beings and to be treated with respect in The Rebel Flesh?????

Just remember the only reason The Doctor traveled there in the first place was to learn how to cut the signal being transmitted to the ganger Amy. You don't mess with his friends.

[sebbie3000]

Originally Posted by Collins1965

Can someone explain why the Doctor destroyed the ganger Amy with no qualms whatsoever after arguing strenuously that gangers were sentient beings and to be treated with respect in The Rebel Flesh?????

The gangers in the two-parter were separate entities because of the solar storm disrupting and changing the signals from the relays the original people were in. They weren't just the flesh avatars that Amy was. Amy's ganger wasn't separated from her - as demonstrated by the bleed-through of Mme Kovarian being seen by the ganger. This showed the linking of the brain of original Amy controlling the flesh avatar. The gangers in the two-parter no longer needed to be controlled by the originals, as they had been able to become independent and Amy's ganger wasn't.

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by sebbie3000

The gangers in the two-parter were separate entities because of the solar storm disrupting and changing the signals from the relays the original people were in. They weren't just the flesh avatars that Amy was. Amy's ganger wasn't separated from her - as demonstrated by the bleed-through of Mme Kovarian being seen by the ganger. This showed the linking of the brain of original Amy controlling the flesh avatar. The gangers in the two-parter no longer needed to be controlled by the originals, as they had been able to become independent and Amy's ganger wasn't.

However, if I got it right, didn't the gangers complain that the humans just destroyed them without any qualms (before the storm?). And wasn't that also one of the Doctor's problems?

I will say though that I haven't watched it for a while, but I assume the flesh is living matter regardless who controls it?
As such the destroying of the Amy ganger is still quite strange.

[Sara_Peplow]

It was an emergency situation. He knew she was going into labour. If Amy hadn't woke up to give birth at demons run both she and Melody would have died. Kavarian let the birth go naturally because she didn't want to risk injurying the child.

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by Sara_Peplow

It was an emergency situation. He knew she was going into labour. If Amy hadn't woke up to give birth at demons run both she and Melody would have died. Kavarian let the birth go naturally because she didn't want to risk injurying the child.

Sorry this is a contradiction. Kovarian would not have let her die! If it had been an emergency, then surely Kovarian would have interrupted the connection (as she did with the baby). There would have been no need for the Doctor to do so, and how did Kovarian let the birth go naturally? She obviously did not interrupt the connection, which meant quite an unnatural birth.

[Sara_Peplow]

I meant she sort of acted like a midwife she talked to Amy gave her instruction remember the doctor told Amy to wait untill she was told to push. Kavarian could have used forceps or even peformed a c section on Amy but she didn't. Amy brought Melody into the world with no help or even pain relief. She had to be brave to survive that and the 3 weeks she was held hostage with her child.

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by sebbie3000

Some of us who claim to understand it, actually do understand it. It is very disingenuous to claim others cannot possibly understand something that you yourself don't understand understand (this is aimed generally, btw, not at you cathrin), otherwise how would we be finding the Higgs Boson, or sending rockets to the moon? Others can understand things that other others can't...

Why did the Doctor say he knew where to find Melody at the end of AGMGTW and then totally fail to do so? Why did River imply that the Doctor took care of her as a child, when he obviously didn't?

Why was Mels never mentioned before LKH? How did she, as a toddler (after her regeneration) in 1960s New York, get herself to 2000s Leadworth? How come it was Amy who, though the same age, looked after her? Even Amy had an aunt.

As others have said, it would have made sense if Amy's replacement had happened when she was taken by the Silence. Why did the Doctor say it had happened before America?

How come Canton was chosen to confirm that it was the Doctor who had died? It wasn't. But why would the others take his word anyway? They didn't know him then.

These are just some of the questions i was left with after series 6. I could go on and on. I take your point that Moff must have planned it all in advance, but I'm afraid it actually seems as if he is making it up as he goes along, without reference to what has happened before, and without thinking it through logically.

That's what I mean by not understanding. If you do understand then can you kindly clear these points up for me?

[bbll22]

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

Why did the Doctor say he knew where to find Melody at the end of AGMGTW and then totally fail to do so?

I always took that as meaning he knew where Melody would be because by then he knew she was River. He didn't need to find her as everything was fine. He couldn't alter her timeline because of her meeting with 10. Well, this is how I took it anyway. I never thought he was actively going to search for her.

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

Why did River imply that the Doctor took care of her as a child, when he obviously didn't?

River lies

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

Why was Mels never mentioned before LKH? How did she, as a toddler (after her regeneration) in 1960s New York, get herself to 2000s Leadworth? How come it was Amy who, though the same age, looked after her? Even Amy had an aunt.

To me I've never questioned anything about Mels because I've always explained it to myself as she was taken by the crack in S5 - hence no mentions etc. Obviously that would in theory affect River but wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey, eh?

For her getting to Leadworth, possibly Kovarian took her there? Or a weird way the Doctor took her there after finding out everything at the end of S6 to make sure it works for the sake of time. Lastly, I've always presumed she was in foster care or something and was raised by Amy in a friendship way, not literally brought up by her...

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

As others have said, it would have made sense if Amy's replacement had happened when she was taken by the Silence. Why did the Doctor say it had happened before America?

Because to me it is most logical that it happened before then as she'd already be pregnant by then - a few months atleast. It had been a while since their wedding night. So not long after getting a bun in the oven, Kovarian knowing what the baby would become, kidnapped her.

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

How come Canton was chosen to confirm that it was the Doctor who had died? It wasn't. But why would the others take his word anyway? They didn't know him then.

If the Doctor's invited him to his 'death', then they must assume his is very important to him and in that way they'd trust him if the Doctor trusts Canton.


Well I've had a go at answering for you Granny, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right....who knows!

[ukgnome]

All valid points and persuasions but...Just how the heck did Madame K know about the Ponds time headed child?

[Collins1965]

Thanks to those who tried to explain the Doctor destroying the Amy ganger. I still think it's a bit strange, though. That Amy shared all those adventures with him and he zapped her like a bug

[bbll22]

Originally Posted by ukgnome

All valid points and persuasions but...Just how the heck did Madame K know about the Ponds time headed child?

Presumably if she's in the far future, she'd know about Melody being the man who killed the Doctor. From that looking at birth records would tell her who the parents are, so going back in time to when Amy gets pregnant, she abducts her making sure that Melody will become who she's destined to be.

Timey-wimey!

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by bbll22

Well I've had a go at answering for you Granny, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right....who knows!

Thanks for your reply bbll22. If your ideas work for you, then fine, I've no problem with that.

But I still think it's odd that the Doctor rushed off at the end of AGMGTW leaving the impression that he was going to find the baby - and at the beginning of LKH the Ponds seem to think he's been looking for her.

Maybe it was the Doctor who took Mels to Leadworth. But that would mean that he knew who she was, although he seemed not to. Of course, the Doctor lies.

If everything is a matter of personal interpretation, though, or things aren't as they appear because the Doctor lies, or it's all down to timey-wimey stuff, it's just a cop out, really.

Anyone can say they understand because they've worked it out to their own satisfaction, but there isn't an authentic explanation.

[Rorschach]

Originally Posted by Collins1965

Thanks to those who tried to explain the Doctor destroying the Amy ganger. I still think it's a bit strange, though. That Amy shared all those adventures with him and he zapped her like a bug

But the point is that "that amy" was also the real Amy. He said to her "all that time you were in the TARDIS as well" (or something like that). The two were not seperate entities (unlike the storm affected gangers earlier in the series). All the gangers sensations and memories were being fed back to the real Amy.

Fake-Amy was just an interface device, not a person. It's as though the Ganger Amy was an IPad and they had been using FaceTime for months. Liquifying the ganger was like smashing the iPad. Nothing of their shared adventures was destroyed.

[bbll22]

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

Anyone can say they understand because they've worked it out to their own satisfaction, but there isn't an authentic explanation.

Oh I agree with that Granny, I accept the scenario's that I like purely because they suit it best for me. If the Moff saw them he'd probably not agree in the slightest with them, but in a weird way I like not having a definitive answer for everything! If I don't like the actual answer to how it was all done that would make me more angry than not having any answer at all. - Journey's End resolution being an example here. I'd have prefered in a weird way not seeing how they were stopped and only relying on an explanation. It's far better than just pushing a few buttons! Grr...

I'm odd I know, but I like being like that. The Moff obviously likes not answering questions and creating ones in the process. I do like that method oddly - I know others would disagree though ofcourse!

[ukgnome]

Originally Posted by bbll22

Presumably if she's in the far future, she'd know about Melody being the man who killed the Doctor. From that looking at birth records would tell her who the parents are, so going back in time to when Amy gets pregnant, she abducts her making sure that Melody will become who she's destined to be.

Timey-wimey!

That's more paradoxy woxy

[sebbie3000]

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

Why did the Doctor say he knew where to find Melody at the end of AGMGTW and then totally fail to do so? Why did River imply that the Doctor took care of her as a child, when he obviously didn't?

Why was Mels never mentioned before LKH? How did she, as a toddler (after her regeneration) in 1960s New York, get herself to 2000s Leadworth? How come it was Amy who, though the same age, looked after her? Even Amy had an aunt.

As others have said, it would have made sense if Amy's replacement had happened when she was taken by the Silence. Why did the Doctor say it had happened before America?

How come Canton was chosen to confirm that it was the Doctor who had died? It wasn't. But why would the others take his word anyway? They didn't know him then.

These are just some of the questions i was left with after series 6. I could go on and on. I take your point that Moff must have planned it all in advance, but I'm afraid it actually seems as if he is making it up as he goes along, without reference to what has happened before, and without thinking it through logically.

That's what I mean by not understanding. If you do understand then can you kindly clear these points up for me?

I fail to see how you don't understand what we've seen by those questions. I also don't understand why people are judging the whole storyline without the whole story having played out yet. We don't know what will get answered before Any and Rory leave. If, in the unlikely situation, things get left completely open, I will admit it wasn't catered for our answered. Some things have yet to be explained, that much is obvious, to me at least. All I know is, I can follow what information we've been given, and until the while thing has played out, I'm happy with what we know. If you do want to list the things you feel you don't understand, and they actually impact on the story and have been given answers, I'll try to explain it. But those you wrote, in my mind, don't impact on the story as out litres at the moment.

[jerseyporter]

Ok, another silly question - how does River/Mels traverse timellines/time streams (whatever the correct word is) between her birth, New York as a toddler, the orphanage, Leadworth etc? How does she move between them? Who/what controls her movement between them? I know I should understand, but I don't!

I don't like unanswered questions in general, and I like unanswered paradoxes even less! I don't mind being befuddled for a few episodes, I don't mind being befuddled for a few episodes contained within a whole series, but to still be befuddled (and I'm 45!) after two whole series is just frustrating in the extreme!

I wish someone (either on here, or elsewhere - ideally SM himself!) would publish an 'idiot's guide' to how things are supposed to be understood in the current incarnation of DW. Honestly, it wouldn't mar my enjoyment of watching it - it would enhance it!

I've watched DW since I was a young child - I love that it's got more complex in its second incarnation, but hate how it's got so 'clever' that sometimes it can't be followed without a masters degree in temporal paradoxes!

*Waits to be shot down in flames by viewers who despair of my ignorance*

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by jerseyporter

Ok, another silly question - how does River/Mels traverse timellines/time streams (whatever the correct word is) between her birth, New York as a toddler, the orphanage, Leadworth etc? How does she move between them? Who/what controls her movement between them? I know I should understand, but I don't!

Well you're not the only one, as I mentioned the Mels problem in my post.

Originally Posted by sebbie3000

I fail to see how you don't understand what we've seen by those questions. I also don't understand why people are judging the whole storyline without the whole story having played out yet. We don't know what will get answered before Any and Rory leave. If, in the unlikely situation, things get left completely open, I will admit it wasn't catered for our answered. Some things have yet to be explained, that much is obvious, to me at least. All I know is, I can follow what information we've been given, and until the while thing has played out, I'm happy with what we know. If you do want to list the things you feel you don't understand, and they actually impact on the story and have been given answers, I'll try to explain it. But those you wrote, in my mind, don't impact on the story as out litres at the moment.

I can follow what's happening. I don't get why it's happened. (Or how, in the case of Mels, see above).

If some of these questions are answered, I will apologise for my lack of faith in Moff.

I don't see that the Doctor not going for Melody at the end of AGMGTW is not impacting on the story. It changes the whole subsequent storyline!

It may be that he does go and get her, and takes her, as Mels, to Leadworth, as bbll22 said. But we don't actually know, and to leave it until the series after to find out is expecting a lot of your audience, imo.

If you are OK with just following the story as it's presented, then fine, but last series, and the series before I found myself aware of inconsistencies in the narrative more than I ever have before while watching DW, and it's not because of Moffat's famous cleverness, it's because I don't feel I have the information necessary to draw a conclusion about what's happening.

[Demolished Man]

Originally Posted by cathrin

I remember all the discussion on this forum about what Amy and Rory's chronological timeline was....but I can't recall if it was ever definitively sorted out? Did we ever get to the bottom of the "which version of Amy and Rory" puzzle, and the "at what point did they move into the new house/go to America/show up in the department store with Amy now a model" conundrum?

Amy and Rory have a linear timeline through Series 6, it's the Doctor who jumps around. The house they're living in in 'The Impossible Astronaut' isn't the same one that the Doctor gives them in 'The God Complex' (they're presumably renting).

Originally Posted by cathrin

Various things got me confused. In AGMGTW, the Doctor says that the Amy/Ganger swap must have happened "before America." So when did it happen?

Either in the three months between 'The Impossible Astronaut' and 'Day of the Moon' (Amy has the first flash of Eyepatch Woman before she's captured and held by the Silents) or somewhere between 'A Christmas Carol' and 'The Impossible Astronaut'.

[Demolished Man]

Originally Posted by jerseyporter

Ok, another silly question - how does River/Mels traverse timellines/time streams (whatever the correct word is) between her birth, New York as a toddler, the orphanage, Leadworth etc? How does she move between them? Who/what controls her movement between them? I know I should understand, but I don't!

Mels can't time travel, everything happens in a strictly linear fashion except we don't know how baby Melody got from the 50th Century in 'A Good Man Goes to War' to approximately 1967. However, the 50th century is Captain Jack's native time and we know that humans have access to vortex manipulators then. Pretty much the first thing that the Alex Kingston incarnation of Melody says is that she's going to 'age backwards very slightly to freak people out' so we know that she's somehow learned to control the rate she ages, which is how Mels can go from a toddler in New York in 1970 to growing up with her parents in the 1990s.

[Sara_Peplow]

I feel the same way there are so many inconsistencies. I really thought the doctor was going to go back to the orphanage get Melody out of the suit and bring her home before she ran to new york.
It gave faulse hope to Amy, Rory and the fans. Also didn't get why "Mels" wasn't mentioned especially when Rory heard his baby daughters name at Demons Run he would have said something.Plus how the doctor , Amy and Rory reacted after LKH. They had just got her back and they abandon her. She is briefly mentioned at the end of 6.11 TGC Amy says she would like her daughter to visit. If they had been in contact they could have stoped Kavarian attacking her at graduation and sending her to utah in the suit. Also why didn't Kavarina just kill him herself?. She went to all that trouble kidnap brainwashing, poison lips. It was such an elaborate "death". Designing a space suit that anyone could wear or even work just by itsself, She could have just pointed it at at him and pressed a button to fire the weapons systems.No need to hurt poor River.

[mikey1980]

For me, good writing doesn't consitute complicated writing. It's possible to layer your writing, for there to be subtle depths to it, without confusing people.

While I very much enjoyed his one-off episodes during the RTD era, I think Moffat has certainly been guilty of trying to be too clever and overly complicated. For me, that ruined series 6 (as did the mid-season break incidentally). Undoubtedly some viewers understand everything that's going on and why, but does the average viewer? Should it be necessary to have to re-watch and re-watch before understanding dawns?

Bad Wolf / Parting of the Ways - the finale to series 1 - was really quite simple, it could be understood without needing to go back and scrutinise; but it was also emotionally charged and brilliantly executed TV, and very powerful. It remains the best series ending since Doctor Who returned in 2005. I just wonder whether in trying to be very clever, Moffat missed the mark in Series 6.

[Sara_Peplow]

Question from 6.7 AGMGTW where was the real baby hidden when she was switched with a flesh avatar?. Kavarian shouted "bring me the child!" when the doctor started his assault on demons run. Rory confronted her when she was trying to board her ship .Captain Henry Avery and Toby had allready took it over. Kicking the asses of her crew "of 20". Surely they would have searched the ship and seen or heard the real Melody if she had allready been stashed on board?. Also Amy claimed she had just changed Melodys nappy. Flesh avatars don't have organs. They do not need to eat,drink, sleep or go to the toilet. Final question how did the universe fall for thedoctors trick in Utah?. There is a lot of diffrence between a burnt robot/teselecta and a real dead body.