[abibble]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

I am so reminded of the playground now.

My house is bigger than your house..........nah,nah,nah-nah,nah.

I'm just bored . I should be working but I have none due to me efficiently finishing it all

[Tree-Of-Life]

Originally Posted by abibble

This is true...however that was all AFTER he was famous from I Want You Back through to Thriller. His talent brought him success...the controv/stunts came after.

Would Madonna be the Madonna she is famous for being without the sex book, Like A Prayer video, on stage sex antics at the Blonde Ambition Tour, cone shaped bra, topless event appearance etc. Madonna is famous because of the stunts she pulled not because of her "talent".

Yes. Madonna had already enjoyed a decade of being an international megastar long before she released the 'Sex' book, which is now a very highly valued 20th century artefact. Madonna is talented because of the stunts she pulled, her genius was to realise long before anyone else is that the true art form of modern times isn't poetry, or dance or painting, it's marketing.

She had a fantastic and original product to sell, an ever evolving image and some fantastic songs and albums, which now have become part of her immense back catalogue that very, very few can compare, her songs have stood the test of time and still are played throughout the world. Like any brand leader Madonna always repackaged herself as newer and fresher than before.

And also what exactly was so controversial about the Like A Prayer video? Because Jesus was depicted as black? Or that burning crosses can't be used by anyone other than the Klu Klux Klan.

[Tree-Of-Life]

Originally Posted by abibble

Yes he was.

Number 1s mean nothing..sales do.

Madonnas tours (of which she's had many) gross so much because she charges extortionate amounts. And it's not as if Michael was a flop tour-wise - all of his tours grossed large amounts too (and had broken records at its time).

No she's never been accused of child sex claims but the other shit she's done has always put a lot of people look at her negatively and still do.

Madonna's Sticky and Sweet tour played to a total of 3.5million fans, far more than the Bad Tour, or the Dangerous Tour or the HIStory tour.

[HenryBane]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Yes. Madonna had already enjoyed a decade of being an international megastar long before she released the 'Sex' book, which is now a very highly valued 20th century artefact. Madonna is talented because of the stunts she pulled, her genius was to realise long before anyone else is that the true art form of modern times isn't poetry, or dance or painting, it's marketing.

She had a fantastic and original product to sell, an ever evolving image and some fantastic songs and albums, which now have become part of her immense back catalogue that very, very few can compare, her songs have stood the test of time and still are played throughout the world. Like any brand leader Madonna always repackaged herself as newer and fresher than before.

And also what exactly was so controversial about the Like A Prayer video? Because Jesus was depicted as black? Or that burning crosses can't be used by anyone other than the Klu Klux Klan.

No. I think it may have had something to do with climbing onto an alter with the black Jesus/Saint and simulating a sex act.

[abibble]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Yes. Madonna had already enjoyed a decade of being an international megastar long before she released the 'Sex' book, which is now a very highly valued 20th century artefact. Madonna is talented because of the stunts she pulled, her genius was to realise long before anyone else is that the true art form of modern times isn't poetry, or dance or painting, it's marketing.

She had a fantastic and original product to sell, an ever evolving image and some fantastic songs and albums, which now have become part of her immense back catalogue that very, very few can compare, her songs have stood the test of time and still are played throughout the world. Like any brand leader Madonna always repackaged herself as newer and fresher than before.

And also what exactly was so controversial about the Like A Prayer video? Because Jesus was depicted as black? Or that burning crosses can't be used by anyone other than the Klu Klux Klan.

Thanks for reinforcing my point - she is famous for her stunts. Though I don't think she's that great of a singer or a dancer I think she's a ****ing brilliant business woman.

Didn't the Vatican condemn the Like A Prayer video because she made love to a saint and it cost her a Pepsi deal?

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Madonna's Sticky and Sweet tour played to a total of 3.5million fans, far more than the Bad Tour, or the Dangerous Tour or the HIStory tour.

First of all, you're comparing a 2008 tour to one in the 80s/90s? That's like comparing the success of 21 to Thriller

Secondly the Bad tour reach 4million people. Dangerous = 3.5 million. HIStory = 4.5million. Sticky & Sweet grossed more however.

[Tree-Of-Life]

Thanks for reinforcing my point - she is famous for her stunts. Though I don't think she's that great of a singer or a dancer I think she's a ****ing brilliant business woman.
You don't have to think she is a brilliant singer or dancer, millions of other do, just ask the 300 million + that have bother to buy her records or attend her concerts, so I doubt she or her fans really care, she is as famous for her music as well as her uncanny ability to manipulate the media and yes she is an incredible business woman, she's worth over $700 million (I bet she is worth far more) not to mention the $100 million pay cheque she'll pick up from this tour which I attended last night
Didn't the Vatican condemn the Like A Prayer video because she made love to a saint and it cost her a Pepsi deal?
I have no idea I was too young to remember, however it didn't cost her a penny of her pepsi deal, they cancelled the contract and she kept her $5 million, yes you are right about being a brilliant business woman, not to mention billions of free publicity for her incredible, career defining 'Like A Prayer' album listed in Rolling Stone magazine as one of the greatest albums of all time.


First of all, you're comparing a 2008 tour to one in the 80s/90s? That's like comparing the success of 21 to Thriller
Yes I am
Secondly the Bad tour reach 4million people. Dangerous = 3.5 million. HIStory = 4.5million. Sticky & Sweet grossed more however.

Sticky and Sweet grossed more and played to more people with less shows, so do the math.

[abibble]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Thanks for reinforcing my point - she is famous for her stunts. Though I don't think she's that great of a singer or a dancer I think she's a ****ing brilliant business woman.
You don't have to think she is a brilliant singer or dancer, millions of other do, just ask the 300 million + that have bother to buy her records or attend her concerts, so I doubt she or her fans really care, she is as famous for her music as well as her uncanny ability to manipulate the media and yes she is an incredible business woman, she's worth over $700 million (I bet she is worth far more) not to mention the $100 million pay cheque she'll pick up from this tour which I attended last night
Didn't the Vatican condemn the Like A Prayer video because she made love to a saint and it cost her a Pepsi deal?
I have no idea I was too young to remember, however it didn't cost her a penny of her pepsi deal, they cancelled the contract and she kept her $5 million, yes you are right about being a brilliant business woman, not to mention billions of free publicity for her incredible, career defining 'Like A Prayer' album listed in Rolling Stone magazine as one of the greatest albums of all time.


First of all, you're comparing a 2008 tour to one in the 80s/90s? That's like comparing the success of 21 to Thriller
Yes I am
Secondly the Bad tour reach 4million people. Dangerous = 3.5 million. HIStory = 4.5million. Sticky & Sweet grossed more however.

Sticky and Sweet grossed more and played to more people with less shows, so do the math.

Oh great I'm dealing with a 'stan'.

You seem bothered by me saying I don't think she can sing or dance? Kudos to her for making money from her lack of vocal and dancing talent...you once again reinforced a point I made - that she's a great business woman.

Her Pepsi deal still suffered though right even though she got to keep her fee? I don't understand why you're telling me Like A Prayer is on Rolling Stones list. You're acting as if I dissed the song/album...all I said was that it had controversy.

I just said how many people the MJ tours reached AND that S&S grossed more - how about you read? Comparing a tour today to a tour 20 years ago is stupid and like I said it's like comparing 21's success to Thrillers mainly due to it being a different time in history. You can't compare something today to something over 2 decades ago because the industry and climate is completely different. For example, a ticket for Michael Jacksons Bad Tour cost a minimum of £16.50 whereas a ticket for Madonna's Sticky And Sweet tour cost a minimum of £65. How about you do the maths? It's obvious Madonna would gross more as a result :S

[abibble]

PS I really do love Madonna and was supposed to go to her tour yesterday. But I like Michael more lol.

[Tiki - Taka]

Originally Posted by T Shirt

Nothing changes the fact Michael Jackson was no longer relevant on the music scene.

The generation of today only know of him as a man accused of grooming little boys for sex. We cannot deny this as that is all his image was for the last 10/15 years of his life.

I don't know why its so hard to reason with Jacko fans over this. Yes he has a certain fanbase who will always stay loyal but the majority have a different view of him.

What does this have to do with fame?
We aren't arguing over who is more relevant, or who is viewed in a more positive light.

And the generation of today don't only know him as a man accused of grooming little boys for sex actually.
Yes they know about it... But to say they only know him for that.
Yeah none of them know he made music, and none of them know any of his songs..

and anyway, regardless of why people know of MJ, they still do...
Which makes him famous.

[Tree-Of-Life]

Originally Posted by abibble

Oh great I'm dealing with a 'stan'.

You seem bothered by me saying I don't think she can sing or dance? Kudos to her for making money from her lack of vocal and dancing talent...you once again reinforced a point I made - that she's a great business woman.

Her Pepsi deal still suffered though right even though she got to keep her fee? I don't understand why you're telling me Like A Prayer is on Rolling Stones list. You're acting as if I dissed the song/album...all I said was that it had controversy.

I just said how many people the MJ tours reached AND that S&S grossed more - how about you read? Comparing a tour today to a tour 20 years ago is stupid and like I said it's like comparing 21's success to Thrillers mainly due to it being a different time in history. You can't compare something today to something over 2 decades ago because the industry and climate is completely different. For example, a ticket for Michael Jacksons Bad Tour cost a minimum of £16.50 whereas a ticket for Madonna's Sticky And Sweet tour cost a minimum of £65. How about you do the maths? It's obvious Madonna would gross more as a result :S

Oh great I am dealing with a name caller who labels anyone who has a differing opinion to theirs, how delusional. Grow up.

Sorry do you think Madonna at this time in her career gives a rat's tutu about her 'pepsi' commercial, something that now she wouldn't touch with a barge pole, she was offered big bucks, she got it, plus about 500 times more publicity than the original endorsement, so no she was not 'damaged' by it.

Yes thank you for clarifying my point, at one moment you say you can't compare the 80's to now, as it is a different climate and industry, yet give no credit to Madonna since she has grossed more than Jacko's back at his peak. Odd.

[abibble]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Oh great I am dealing with a name caller who labels anyone who has a differing opinion to theirs, how delusional. Grow up.

Sorry do you think Madonna at this time in her career gives a rat's tutu about her 'pepsi' commercial, something that now she wouldn't touch with a barge pole, she was offered big bucks, she got it, plus about 500 times more publicity than the original endorsement, so no she was not 'damaged' by it.

Yes thank you for clarifying my point, at one moment you say you can't compare the 80's to now, as it is a different climate and industry, yet give no credit to Madonna since she has grossed more than Jacko's back at his peak. Odd.

Do you even know what "stan" means?

I never said she was damaged by it. I just listed it as one of her 'controv' moments. The rest you added.

My point about the tours completely went over you didn't it?

This is useless since you're just not getting it.

[SULLA]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

I think she is.

She never was and never will be.

[DiamondDoll]

Her career has spanned decades, survived fashions and struggled through a variety of public relations disasters.
But last night hundreds of die-hard Madonna fans abandoned their Queen of Pop by marching out of London's Hyde Park during her MDNA concert - some branding it the worst they had ever seen.
Even a sexy striptease on stage left fans cold- one simply stated: 'When Madonna has concerts in her 50s where she strips herself on stage, you know her career is as dead as myspace.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz210qW7PDz

Well well well.

Justify this one then.

[Tree-Of-Life]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

Her career has spanned decades, survived fashions and struggled through a variety of public relations disasters.
But last night hundreds of die-hard Madonna fans abandoned their Queen of Pop by marching out of London's Hyde Park during her MDNA concert - some branding it the worst they had ever seen.
Even a sexy striptease on stage left fans cold- one simply stated: 'When Madonna has concerts in her 50s where she strips herself on stage, you know her career is as dead as myspace.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz210qW7PDz

Well well well.

Justify this one then.

Ah the Daily Mail. The fountain of truth and pinnacle of journalisrltic integrity. I am surprised it has run a story on Madonna rather than their very weird daily fascination with Suri Cruise.

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by Tree-Of-Life

Ah the Daily Mail. The fountain of truth and pinnacle of journalisrltic integrity. I am surprised it has run a story on Madonna rather than their very weird daily fascination with Suri Cruise.

That's right.

Shoot the messenger when you don't like the message.

[Hit Em Up Style]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

That's right.

Shoot the messenger when you don't like the message.

What were you trying to prove though?

I'm sure if we looked deep enough into the Daily Mails history we could also find plently negative articles they posted on Mr Jackson but none of it is really relevant is it?

Out of the interest of fairness though here is a one from me

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/ne...le-artist.html

Although DS have slightly messed up with the title as Madonna already holds the title of highest grossing tour for a female. They are however right that she will break her own record and overtake AC/DC.

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by Hit Em Up Style

What were you trying to prove though?

I'm sure if we looked deep enough into the Daily Mails history we could also find plently negative articles they posted on Mr Jackson but none of it is really relevant is it?

Out of the interest of fairness though here is a one from me

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/ne...le-artist.html

Although DS have slightly messed up with the title as Madonna already holds the title of highest grossing tour for a female. They are however right that she will break her own record and overtake AC/DC.

Wasn't trying to prove anything other than her star is on the wane.
That's all.

Anyway I'll let you all get on with the point-scoring now since I'm outta this silly thread.

It is my opinion that Madonna is not (and never was for that matter) anything like as famous as some are claiming.

[Hit Em Up Style]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

Wasn't trying to prove anything other than her star is on the wane.
That's all.

Anyway I'll let you all get on with the point-scoring now since I'm outta this silly thread.

It is my opinion that Madonna is not (and never was for that matter) anything like as famous as some are claiming.

Must be some bright star then. In 2012 alone Madonna set an itunes record, tied with Elvis for the most number 1 albums in the UK, a record she will now break because the likelyhood of her having another number 1 album in the future is near certain, and her tour is going to become the 3rd highest grossing of all time.

Not bad for an old gal eh?

Oh and btw I am not sure whether or not I would say Madonna is the most famous person in the world but I ain't having people beat down her incredible acheivements.. its these acheivements that make people so mad.

[Tree-Of-Life]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

Wasn't trying to prove anything other than her star is on the wane.
That's all.

Anyway I'll let you all get on with the point-scoring now since I'm outta this silly thread.

It is my opinion that Madonna is not (and never was for that matter) anything like as famous as some are claiming.

yes run along now don't shoot the messenger above just because you don't like the message. Highest grossing tour in history by a solo artist ( she will soom hold the top 3 positions) yes Madonna appears ripe for obscurity. She's the most famous person on earth. Run on now.

[domesticated]

i went to hyde park and was right at the back. i didnt notice any sound issues and pretty much watched it on the big screen, however the atmosphere is not something you can pick up on the tv and the place was buzzing with people having a GOOD time. in terms of her star on the wane - nonsense. i can point to other celebrities who are considered the next big thing who are struggling far worse than Madonna. too early to write her off yet....

[Tiki - Taka]

Originally Posted by Hit Em Up Style

Oh and btw I am not sure whether or not I would say Madonna is the most famous person in the world but I ain't having people beat down her incredible acheivements.. its these acheivements that make people so mad.

What was the point of your argument then?
The whole thread was about being "the most famous", not having the "most success" and "achievements"
It has nothing to do with who is liked more, or who charges more for tours, or even who is "better"

"Success" isn't the same as "fame", and you yourself have just admitted you aren't sure that you could call her the most famous...
That's all people were saying.
No one can deny her success... But she isn't the most famous person in the world and never has been, in our opinion. Close but still not...
Nobody was "beating down her achievments"... She is still a legend and an icon.

[HenryBane]

Originally Posted by Tiki - Taka

What was the point of your argument then?
The whole thread was about being "the most famous", not having the "most success" and "achievements"
It has nothing to do with who is liked more, or who charges more for tours, or even who is "better"

"Success" isn't the same as "fame", and you yourself have just admitted you aren't sure that you could call her the most famous...
That's all people were saying.
No one can deny her success... But she isn't the most famous person in the world and never has been, in our opinion. Close but still not...
Nobody was "beating down her achievments"... She is still a legend and an icon.

On an earlier thread started by the same poster there was discussion about how billions of people in China and India will have never heard of Madonna, how their own home grown stars are more famous than her. Then there was discussion if number of countries you're known in counts towards being most famous or the amount of people on the planet who know of you counts as being most famous.

The OP has fixed ideas, wants to put their own biased views across and isn't really interested in any view that opposes their own (as evident just reading this thread). I don't know why they start threads asking for opinions, then shoots down anyone with a different opinion.

[LemonPledge]

Do people honestly think she's more famous than Micheal Jackson, Mohammed Ali, Barack Obama even Osama Bin Laden? :/ Seriously get a grip.

[Kellie B]

Originally Posted by LemonPledge

Do people honestly think she's more famous than Micheal Jackson, Mohammed Ali, Barack Obama even Osama Bin Laden? :/ Seriously get a grip.

Surley she is as famous as them though?

I don't get this notion Madonna suddenly isn't that famous. She is the most successful woman in music with a career spanning 30 years which means she is known to cross generations, she has nearly 400 million sales under her belt. Someone said people in India don't know Madonna but her new album just set a record in that country. The first time ever for a western singer.

It seems to me from reading this topic people are just using their dislike of Madonna to down play how famous she is.

As an earlier poster said. Say Madonna's name and people know who it is you are talking about. She is an icon of pop culture and is branded the Queen Of Pop. Thats Madonna's legacy so of course she is very famous. Younger singers like Rihanna, Katy Perry and Lady Gaga are constantly name dropping Madonna as their idol.

At the very height of Michael Jackson's fame MTV gave him the title of King Of Pop. At the same time they called Madonna the Queen Of Pop. To suggest people who knew Michael was being called the King didn't know Madonna was being called the Queen is pretty damn stupid. They were equally as famous in the late 80s. That fame has carried on for both of them. Only MJ is dead now and Madonna is still alive. Once Madonna dies I imagine there will be just as much of an outpouring as there was with Michael's death. Her music will reach a new generation and her name will be even more famous than it was before.

[Tiki - Taka]

Originally Posted by Kellie B

I don't get this notion Madonna suddenly isn't that famous.

Nobody claimed she wasn't "that famous".. Just not the most famous. She is though one of the most famous people in the world.

Originally Posted by Kellie B

It seems to me from reading this topic people are just using their dislike of Madonna to down play how famous she is.

Not at all, we just don't think she is the most famous. One of? Yes. But not the most famous (thread title)

Originally Posted by Kellie B

As an earlier poster said. Say Madonna's name and people know who it is you are talking about. She is an icon of pop culture and is branded the Queen Of Pop. Thats Madonna's legacy so of course she is very famous. Younger singers like Rihanna, Katy Perry and Lady Gaga are constantly name dropping Madonna as their idol.

We all know she's an idol... No one is denying that...

Originally Posted by Kellie B

Her music will reach a new generation and her name will be even more famous than it was before.

Actually the new generation aren't that interested in her it seems... She's not really that cool in the eyes of lots of young kids. Her career is now about selling to existing fans, in my opinion. Everything she can now do, others can do whilst being younger and more relevant.

Madonna is obviously on the highest level of fame. However Michael Jackson is one of the few who are (were) just above her, in my opinion.