Yeah it does, beleive it or not, I actually find myself chuckling at some of Juley Smith's dialogue, I really liked that guy, shame he was lumbered with Gus as a brother.

Grantham was good friends with Wendy Richard, he said so in his book and she didnt refute anything he said. So I think when he was insulting certain cast members some of it could be taken with a pinch of salt. But I reckon his remarks about Jessie Wallace were true, not too many people have a good word to say about her, and part of me was happy when those private photos of her surfaced online as the same thing happened to him. What he was doing - rightly or wrongly - was private. I defy anyone to not slag off people they don't like at work when they are in private. But yes, having cybersex on the BBC's time was wrong, the suspension was just, the furore was not.

The writers did all kinds of things to Den after the webcam story broke, to punish him. LG was contracted to the show and had no choice but to act them out. Kathleen Hutchinson who succeeded Louise Berridge seemed to have a bee in her bonnett over Den and proceeded to firstly bury him by having him force Zoe to sleep with him, and then have him killed off in an incredibly indignifying way, which beggared belief considering all the lengths the show went to un-kill him in the first place. John Yorke is on record as saying he didnt like the way Den went out and if he could of changed it, he would have (he arrived back as EP too late and everything had already been filmed)

i will never forgive Hutchinson for what she did and can only wish her career bad tidings.

The furore was so large because of who Grantham played; the British press love to tear things down, and in soap there is nothing as big as dirty den... They sensed their opportunity and went all out for it.

Had Grantham played a middling character or someone less iconic... Like a max branning or something; the backlash would never have been so large.

Tanya's revelation that she killed her father. So why didn't she say anything when Sean "the scowl" Slater admitted to killing his own father? The Brannings, in general, have been retconned to the hilt. How many children did Jim have? What order were they born in? What about Derek and his brothers beating up David? Also this Branning/Moon connection seems contrived.

It's true - the Brannings are retcon central.

Absolutely. The press had it against him since day one, they tried to force the BBC to axe Den back in 85 when it was revealed he'd served an 11 year prison sentance for murder and Julia Smith's refusal to do was probably taken as an act of defiance and they'd been hoping to get their chance to get him. LG was so stupid for doing it though, I'm still angry he could be so stupid, he was giving his fans a great opportunity to re-live those glory days, and it was all wrecked in one fell swoop. No way would the press let it go until he was axed.

Despite this however, he's still the greatest character in EastEnders history.

Gus was whose brother?


That's pathetic.


That's true. The Branning's backstory has been chopped and changed multiple times. But what is the Moon/Branning connection?

I@d have to agree with that. The Branning children in birth order, number and relationship to theit father and each other is one of the biggest retcons in the show's history.

I can't remember specific dialogue, but i do remember David saying back in 94 that Carol's dad and brothers (plural) had beaten him up and run him out of town and Carol saying that she'd had mothing to do with them from then on. The impression given was that Carol was very much the youngest of the family along with April and the fact that there wasn't much age difference between Bianca and Robbie supported the idea that Carol had set out on her own and hooked up with another man and had another baby very quickly with no contact with her family, except her sister.

Now, we have Derek as the oldest, only a couple of years older than Carol who apparently was at Bianca's birth and her other 2 brothers being about 7 and 5 at the time of her pregnancy - David must have been quaking in his boots! Also, that Bianca had met Bradley when he was a little boy when it was very much implied that April's wedding in 95 was the first time she'd met Jim, her gran, Derek or any of the family other than April - and they were all vile to Alan and Billy.

I honestly don't think it was just the press, it was some of the other actors that he criticised whose noses were already out of joint as they felt they were the stars of the show and didn't like the limelight being taken off them by his return. The stories at the time (and I'm inclined to believe them though I take hearsay with a dollop of salt generally) was that they basically went to the PTB and said him or us. Of course this is all allegedly, please don't sue me.

Finaly, he's in control of his destinly, it was a damned stupid thing to put himself in that situation in the first place.

Oh 100% for sure. All jealous idiots who couldnt bear the shows originator coming back and showing them all up. Wallace and Richie would be at the front of the queue. Makes me laugh how people put Kat and Alfie alongside Den - hahahaha, in another galaxy maybe.

No. It's not.

Yes it is. Your exaggerated adoration for a fictional character and your dislike of his exit from a soap opera makes you wish a terrible career to the woman who made the decision on his exit story?

Pathetic.

Tanya not mentioning or even giving a reaction that she'd shared the experience of killing their fathers (in very different circumstances) to Sean is a huge blooper.

Re the Den, hutchinson thing. I don't think that Den is the greatest ever EE character. He and Angie were an incredibly powerful couple - their chemistry just worked - and I think that they were the major reason that EE became the huge success it did on launch though other storylines like Hassans SIDS death and Arthurs breakdown were huge factors as well. I don't think that den's return (after the initial return storyline) was ever going to match the heights of 85/86 as nothing will ever match Sharongate for phil, grant etc.

He could still have been a long term viable character if the production company (including actors) had stood firm against the press as they did in 85 when the murder conviction and as they did after McFadden's dogging scandal and ritchie's affair and countless other incidents. To that degree I think they let him down and didn't afford him the support awarded to other cast members and there's no doubt it has damaged his reputation professionally and personally so I can understand his fans frustration.

I hated the way den was portrayed in his last year with the affair with kate, psychological manipulation of Zoe into bed and the nature of his feelings toward his children, the one thing that had always been Den's saving grace - his genuine, pure, paternal love for Sharon and Vicky.

I wouldn't however wish a bad career on anyone, esp as I think hutchison was placed in an untenable position by a lot of other forces, upset cast members, BBC PTB scared of scandal and losing cast, the press, outraged of Suburbia. It does however seem incredible that masturbation is viewed as a worst, career finishing crime than murder. As I say, I think if it had been at home, off duty it'd would have been a different story, it was using license fee payers property (computer) whilst on clock that meant they had to address it.

General retconning. Ian beale, bradley Branning and nearly all of the original Hollyoaks cast ages changed. Ian and Brad got older, Hoaks only aged about 2 years in the first 5, esp Rob Hawthorne and Kurt and lucy Benson.

Exactly, she didn't make the decision that he had to leave and did the best she could with the state of the show at the time.

Den's murder and the year long aftermath of it was the highlight of that era of the show.

Without it, god knows how awful it would have been.

I think that one person alone can't be blamed for it and it didn't need to have happened if the 'firm' including cast had stood firm. I do however think she along with the writing team of the time are responsible for the degrading way den was portrayed in his last year, playing on the public's worst perceptions of Dirty Den (when there had been a lot more to him originally) and grantham after the webcam affair. In my opinion, they did destroy the original iconic character of Den in that last year, same as they are doing to Kat now and have been ever since she came back gobby, street fighting and pregnant with her 'man on the moon' saviours cousins child and not seeming to show any regret or sorrow over the indiscretion.

In all honesty, if I was to place the blame for the non renewal of his contract at anyones door, it would be the cast that didn't want him back in the first place and jumped on the scandal and him peaking out of turn about them (which was a stupid thing for him to have done) to put the BBC in a him or us situation and the whoever made the decision at the BBC that these 'stars' were so necessary to the success of the show that their tantrums should be pandered to.

However as previously said, they didn't need to write Den in such a horrible way in his last few months. Personally I found Andy's death in the 20th anniversary episode much more effective and shocking than Dens, especially the matter of fact, casual way Jonny just tossed him off the bridge.

The time period of Zainab & Yusef being married seemed to change, for the sake of a song, and also the effects of the fire. In 2008 Zainab was well aware of the aspects of the fire but by 2011 she couldn't remember details of it. All a bit annoying.

Trevor Morgan mother was suppose to be alive and well in 2000, even writing to ask for money (although this was a cover story) but by 2002 Trevor was saying his mother had died when was 11 and he never had a family, he used this as a sort of justification of why he was the way he was with Mo and why he wanted her him all to himself.

Sharon attended a private school, and would wear her boater in the caff. The others('Chelle, Ian et al) attended Walford Comp. Then lo and behold, years later, Sharon had been to school with that fireman guy, and Ian had apparently been called 'Squeale'.

That was one of the worst ones. Central to Sharon's character was that she was a misfit - the private school girl who was adopted. Then they threw that out for the sake of Tom, who only appeared in the show for about five minutes.

Wasn't Andy's death a surprise though? I don't think they'd announced his exit.

I remember the big press attention about Den being murdered and they wouldn't reveal which of the women would kill him, but Andy's wasn't reported.

At least I didn't know of it so it was a huge shock for me.

I'll decide if the adoration is exaggerated, not you. I think it's quite appropriate. He's my favourite of all time and I'll never accept this treatment as anything but shabby by some wannabe trying to make a name for herself.

Yes, you can't get anymore awful than awful. It was crap when she arrived, crap when she left.

Den's murder was a piece of shit, you're only saying it was a highlight to combat me due to your dislike of me. It's not a real opinion.

Sorry, disagree.... Den's murder was a comparatively epic storyline... It was awesome seeing it spiral ever bigger involving more and more characters. No storyline has involved as many icons as that one - and imo was a fitting tribute in its way.

Would I have preferred Den alive - of course, one of EE great missed opportunities was exploring fully his relationship with Chrissie - they were a fantastic couple, I loved the fact that Den had finally met someone who could be just as manipulative as he was; but the murder storyline was pretty good by most standards and at least we got to have nearly a year of the fabulous Chrissie front and centre.

There are far worse ways I can think of to go.

The 20th anniversary episode was also extremely well written and acted; TAO put in a blinder, but even Michelle Ryan stepped up.

It also made a good impact upon popular consciousness so is still remembered today.... the worst thing would be for Den to have left on a whimper, with his exit forgotten about. THAT would have been awful.

Thats a good, well thought-out post. Enjoyed reading it.

I can see what your saying regarding what was good about EE in its formative years, but I would stress that Den and Angie's arc was continually the story that made press headlines - not that that proves anything, but it's indicative of what is capturing the publics imagination at a time when the audience wasn't told what they must and must not like,

The apex of the D&A storyline, garnered the highest audience in soap opera history. Not to say that everything else was no good, far from it, but I think in 1985, there was a lot bad about the show, and it improved tenfold in its second year. You mention Hassan's death, powerful a story as that is, the acting by Salih and Ratcliffe bordered on the turgid at times. There was a lot of poor acting in the first year, but I do feel that Den and Angie's arc, plus Den with Michelle, were the most thrilling of the first year. Along with Dot's involvement.

You talk about Den's pure love for Vicky, and I was appalled, APPALLED when at Xmas, Den stated that he didnt have half the feelings for Vicky - his actual daughter - that he did for Sharon. That was when I knew the writers were doing their damndest to bury him as a character. They succeeded to be honest, so many viewers watched that and believed it. The true Den Watts would have NEVER said that. About Dennis perhaps, but not Vicky.

As for Hutchison, I stand by what I said, I care about the character of Den too much, I'd be derelict in my duty as one of his fans if I accepted what she did to him, which was a disgrace. The webcam affair had been dealt with by the previous EP, he'd served a suspension and endured widespread embarassment for a number of months. He wasn't the first cast member to have behaved badly (Taylforth giving her husband a BJ in a layby was decidedly worse in my view) and he's not the last, but Hutchison felt she needed to make a scapegoat of LG and Den, not caring a jot for his legions of fans, his popularity cannot be denied and the character deserved a far more suitable exit than the one he got.

It WAS a whimper! You obviously don't know who Dennis Watts is if you think that was a 'fitting tribute'. A doorstop! Three ridiiculous women! The only good thing about it was Den reminding Sam that she set fire to his club, and reminding Chrissie that she schemed with him to releive her of the Vic. Only Zoe was a victim out of the trio, but the fact that Den forced her into bed already made the whole thing a farce. Den is a lothario and a playboy from way back, but he'd never blackmail someone into bed, not his style, no way, no how.

It had an impact amonst younger fans who do not remember Den the first time round. If you do remember him, and you TRULY feel that that this was appropriate, I feel for you.

Epic? I've seen more epic Adam Sandler movies.