[jerseyporter]

I know, I know - I shouldn't be nit-picking like this, but 'Jesus Christ Superstar' isn't told from Jesus'* point of view at all, but it's the last few days of Jesus' life told from Judas'* point of view. Therefore it isn't a 'Jesus' show at all, but a 'Judas' one!

The ultimate irony being that the 'crowd pleasing big number', Superstar (which was sung as the 'Jesus hopefuls' group number' on Sunday night) is about Jesus, but is actually sung by Judas!

Judas gets three 'big' numbersin JCS, either totally solo or mostly solo (Heaven on Their Minds, Judas' Death and the 'money tune' Superstar). Heck, even Mary Magdalene gets three 'big' numbers either solo or mostly solo (Everything's Alright, I Don't Know How to Love Him and Could we Start Again Please). Jesus gets only one 'big' number as a solo, and that's Gethsemane, same has Herod and Pilate in fact (King Herod's Song and Trial Before Pilate respectively).

Yes, Gethsemane is a hard song to sing with an amazing almost three octave range, but the fact remains that it's the only solo Jesus song. And yes, Jesus also has parts in other songs (such as Hosanna and The Last Supper) but if you have the libretto handy, what is listed as 'The Crowd' also get as much to sing in the show too!

JCS is one of ALW/Tim Rice's true ensemble pieces from the point of view of nearly every main character getting a fair chance to sing/shine, with Judas and Mary getting the lion's share of the lead songs. But, just because it's called 'Jesus Christ, Superstar' doesn't mean Jesus is the main character!

So, for me, this 'search for Jesus' lost its credibility right from the start because they're looking for the wrong person to sing the wrong part. The other 'search for a star' shows on the BBC worked because they were looking for the right person to sing the right part!

I love 'JCS' and have seen it live on stage many times (including the late 90s revival in the West End with Steve Balsamo as Jesus) but for me the ultimate production is, and will always be, the film with Ted Neely and Carl Anderson as Jesus and Judas respectively.

I'll shut up now - no one will agree with me anyway!

* PS - The apostrophe after the 's', but no extra 's' after the apostrophe (as in "Jesus' point of view" and "Judas' point of view") is grammatically correct (I teach Literacy!) but although the plural of many men called 'Jesus' might be 'Jesuses', that bit still sounds awkward!

Maybe that's because there was only ever, and will only ever, be one Jesus!!!

[littlebooties]

I think you make a very good point/points.
I am also slightly worried that Tim Minchin is Judas. It is an ensemble piece as you describe but for me Judas is THE part in this musical, he is the character I came away from the theatre focused on and I felt was the perspective of the audience in the musical, its like we go on Judas' journey with him and he asks the questions we might.

I love Tim Minchin but at the moment cant see that he has the vocals for it. I do hope I'm wrong. (No one will beat Carl Anderson in this role for me, the man was a vocal god)
Seems odd to me that we might end up with a stronger singer playing Jesus than Judas.

If it was me I would want the part of Judas (and I'm female).

Just thinking about this stuff makes me realise how much I like this musical

[PinkPetunia]

When I went to see Joseph with Keith Jack I was mesmorised by the Narrator ,played so brilliantly by Tara Bethan who was on the Dorothy shows .She stole the show .Sometimes the lead role is not always the one to enchant

[thenetworkbabe]

Originally Posted by jerseyporter

I know, I know - I shouldn't be nit-picking like this, but 'Jesus Christ Superstar' isn't told from Jesus'* point of view at all, but it's the last few days of Jesus' life told from Judas'* point of view. Therefore it isn't a 'Jesus' show at all, but a 'Judas' one!

The ultimate irony being that the 'crowd pleasing big number', Superstar (which was sung as the 'Jesus hopefuls' group number' on Sunday night) is about Jesus, but is actually sung by Judas!

Judas gets three 'big' numbersin JCS, either totally solo or mostly solo (Heaven on Their Minds, Judas' Death and the 'money tune' Superstar). Heck, even Mary Magdalene gets three 'big' numbers either solo or mostly solo (Everything's Alright, I Don't Know How to Love Him and Could we Start Again Please). Jesus gets only one 'big' number as a solo, and that's Gethsemane, same has Herod and Pilate in fact (King Herod's Song and Trial Before Pilate respectively).

Yes, Gethsemane is a hard song to sing with an amazing almost three octave range, but the fact remains that it's the only solo Jesus song. And yes, Jesus also has parts in other songs (such as Hosanna and The Last Supper) but if you have the libretto handy, what is listed as 'The Crowd' also get as much to sing in the show too!

JCS is one of ALW/Tim Rice's true ensemble pieces from the point of view of nearly every main character getting a fair chance to sing/shine, with Judas and Mary getting the lion's share of the lead songs. But, just because it's called 'Jesus Christ, Superstar' doesn't mean Jesus is the main character!

So, for me, this 'search for Jesus' lost its credibility right from the start because they're looking for the wrong person to sing the wrong part. The other 'search for a star' shows on the BBC worked because they were looking for the right person to sing the right part!

I love 'JCS' and have seen it live on stage many times (including the late 90s revival in the West End with Steve Balsamo as Jesus) but for me the ultimate production is, and will always be, the film with Ted Neely and Carl Anderson as Jesus and Judas respectively.

I'll shut up now - no one will agree with me anyway!

* PS - The apostrophe after the 's', but no extra 's' after the apostrophe (as in "Jesus' point of view" and "Judas' point of view") is grammatically correct (I teach Literacy!) but although the plural of many men called 'Jesus' might be 'Jesuses', that bit still sounds awkward!

Maybe that's because there was only ever, and will only ever, be one Jesus!!!

That I would imagine is the point. He wants a professional to play Judas.Because its easier Jesus is less risk for this show. For some reason he also wants to do a show. The alternative was to do Mary , but that would be pretty silly when a couple of girls he has already featured on previous series have already sung Mary in public brilliantly, others have sung it his shows and there's others and other West End Stars who could sing it well.

[thenetworkbabe]

Originally Posted by PinkPetunia

When I went to see Joseph with Keith Jack I was mesmorised by the Narrator ,played so brilliantly by Tara Bethan who was on the Dorothy shows .She stole the show .Sometimes the lead role is not always the one to enchant

Lost sight of Tara. She was going into a Welsh Tv show but as I can't understand Welsh and the show's site wasn't brilliant I never could work out if she did go there or still was there. She was another strange case of someone who got songs that made her look/sound nothing like Nancy and who might have done very differently with more appropriate material.

[PinkPetunia]

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

Lost sight of Tara. She was going into a Welsh Tv show but as I can't understand Welsh and the show's site wasn't brilliant I never could work out if she did go there or still was there. She was another strange case of someone who got songs that made her look/sound nothing like Nancy and who might have done very differently with more appropriate material.

Tara was absolutely brilliant in Joseph, I hardly noticed her on the TV show .She was outstanding and it was she got the biggest cheer of all .

[lady_xanax]

There would be uproar among the religious community if we were searching for Judas!

Jesus is more of an acting part rather than a singing part so it's annoying that the acting has been sidelined.

[jerseyporter]

Originally Posted by littlebooties

I think you make a very good point/points.
I am also slightly worried that Tim Minchin is Judas. It is an ensemble piece as you describe but for me Judas is THE part in this musical, he is the character I came away from the theatre focused on and I felt was the perspective of the audience in the musical, its like we go on Judas' journey with him and he asks the questions we might.

I love Tim Minchin but at the moment cant see that he has the vocals for it. I do hope I'm wrong. (No one will beat Carl Anderson in this role for me, the man was a vocal god)
Seems odd to me that we might end up with a stronger singer playing Jesus than Judas.

If it was me I would want the part of Judas (and I'm female).

Just thinking about this stuff makes me realise how much I like this musical

I love this musical too, and I share your concerns about Tim Minchin. Judas is a powerful role (and, despite my comments about it being more 'ensemble' than most musicals I hope I made it clear that I consider it to be Judas' show if it is anyone's!)

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

That I would imagine is the point. He wants a professional to play Judas.Because its easier Jesus is less risk for this show. For some reason he also wants to do a show. The alternative was to do Mary , but that would be pretty silly when a couple of girls he has already featured on previous series have already sung Mary in public brilliantly, others have sung it his shows and there's others and other West End Stars who could sing it well.

But that makes a mockery of all the other 'search for' shows doesn't it? He didn't shy away from trying to find Joseph for Joseph (both acting and singing required for the lead role = big risk) or Maria in Sound of Music (also a big risk - which actually backfired on them in the end). The only reason we weren't finding Oliver in the 'search' for that musical was because they couldn't put a child through the process, so they went for one of the other well-known parts to cast instead - also a big risk.

So it doesn't seem to make sense to suddenly move the goal posts now - you can't suddenly use the excuse of "well, it's really a Judas show, but seeing as the part of Jesus doesn't require as much we'll search for him anyway because it's less of a risk."

No, this isn't about risk inmo, it's simply that they've done the search for Jesus for this musical because they think the general audience at home either don't know, or don't care, that (despite the musical being called Jesus Christ, Superstar) Jesus is not the main character, but really a Judas' show with the main male role being Judas, and the story of Jesus' last days on earth told entirely from Judas' point of view. Jesus is no more than a co-star, not THE star.

It's this disregard and cynicism for the audience which is the main reason why I'm not watching this particular 'search for'.

I'll stick with my DVD of Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson, thank you - they will always be the benchmark for this musical for me.

(If anyone reading this hasn't seen the original film version go out and buy it!)

[Manko]

I dunno. You'll be telling us that Amadeus isn't about Mozart but is about Salieri next.

[thenetworkbabe]

Originally Posted by jerseyporter

I love this musical too, and I share your concerns about Tim Minchin. Judas is a powerful role (and, despite my comments about it being more 'ensemble' than most musicals I hope I made it clear that I consider it to be Judas' show if it is anyone's!)



But that makes a mockery of all the other 'search for' shows doesn't it? He didn't shy away from trying to find Joseph for Joseph (both acting and singing required for the lead role = big risk) or Maria in Sound of Music (also a big risk - which actually backfired on them in the end). The only reason we weren't finding Oliver in the 'search' for that musical was because they couldn't put a child through the process, so they went for one of the other well-known parts to cast instead - also a big risk.

So it doesn't seem to make sense to suddenly move the goal posts now - you can't suddenly use the excuse of "well, it's really a Judas show, but seeing as the part of Jesus doesn't require as much we'll search for him anyway because it's less of a risk."

No, this isn't about risk inmo, it's simply that they've done the search for Jesus for this musical because they think the general audience at home either don't know, or don't care, that (despite the musical being called Jesus Christ, Superstar) Jesus is not the main character, but really a Judas' show with the main male role being Judas, and the story of Jesus' last days on earth told entirely from Judas' point of view. Jesus is no more than a co-star, not THE star.

It's this disregard and cynicism for the audience which is the main reason why I'm not watching this particular 'search for'.

I'll stick with my DVD of Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson, thank you - they will always be the benchmark for this musical for me.

(If anyone reading this hasn't seen the original film version go out and buy it!)

Maria was a bigger role - but the only people in the top 6 without 3 years of top recent training were Leanne and Siobhan.He's since said he thinks 5 could have played her and 3 have since.
-
Nancy wasn't a very big role. Oliver and Fagin are bigger. Its a couple of big songs and reprises.He wanted a vulnerable young Nancy too - which could have concealed many issues. Joseph isn't that big as roles go either - 2 big songs. The narrator does more. Most (?) of the Joseph's have played the role since. 3 Nancy's have played Nancy, and probably most of the rest could have. Dorothy is a round a lot , but hse's also not go that much to sing. its notable he has never tried to cast a role as big as Christine or even someone like Eponine that requres a lot of acting or a role like Cosette that needs unusual vocal skills..

This time he's got a role thats more like Nancy. His problem is that if you allow for age, acting ability, and rock presence he's got no one ideal to play it - even though its not that demanding with 3 solos.

I think Judas raises all sort of problems as well as having a bigger sing.. There's a stereotype of Jesus - but the stereotype of Judas could really be difficult to work with? Do you want people voting for the one who looks most shifty?

[ewoodie]

Originally Posted by jerseyporter

I love this musical too, and I share your concerns about Tim Minchin. Judas is a powerful role (and, despite my comments about it being more 'ensemble' than most musicals I hope I made it clear that I consider it to be Judas' show if it is anyone's!)



But that makes a mockery of all the other 'search for' shows doesn't it? He didn't shy away from trying to find Joseph for Joseph (both acting and singing required for the lead role = big risk) or Maria in Sound of Music (also a big risk - which actually backfired on them in the end). The only reason we weren't finding Oliver in the 'search' for that musical was because they couldn't put a child through the process, so they went for one of the other well-known parts to cast instead - also a big risk.

So it doesn't seem to make sense to suddenly move the goal posts now - you can't suddenly use the excuse of "well, it's really a Judas show, but seeing as the part of Jesus doesn't require as much we'll search for him anyway because it's less of a risk."

No, this isn't about risk inmo, it's simply that they've done the search for Jesus for this musical because they think the general audience at home either don't know, or don't care, that (despite the musical being called Jesus Christ, Superstar) Jesus is not the main character, but really a Judas' show with the main male role being Judas, and the story of Jesus' last days on earth told entirely from Judas' point of view. Jesus is no more than a co-star, not THE star.

It's this disregard and cynicism for the audience which is the main reason why I'm not watching this particular 'search for'.

I'll stick with my DVD of Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson, thank you - they will always be the benchmark for this musical for me.

(If anyone reading this hasn't seen the original film version go out and buy it!)

No more than a co-star? If the main role as you say is Judas then who is Jesus a co-star with?

Jesus is given the top billing in JCS. IMHO The roles are more or less equal. The film you mention is not the best example of JCS. On film the audience only see the shots the director wants them to see. Lots of shots of Judas sulking and skulking do not mnke him the main character. See it live. Then judge.

[ewoodie]

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

Maria was a bigger role - but the only people in the top 6 without 3 years of top recent training were Leanne and Siobhan.He's since said he thinks 5 could have played her and 3 have since.
-
Nancy wasn't a very big role. Oliver and Fagin are bigger. Its a couple of big songs and reprises.He wanted a vulnerable young Nancy too - which could have concealed many issues. Joseph isn't that big as roles go either - 2 big songs. The narrator does more. Most (?) of the Joseph's have played the role since. 3 Nancy's have played Nancy, and probably most of the rest could have. Dorothy is a round a lot , but hse's also not go that much to sing. its notable he has never tried to cast a role as big as Christine or even someone like Eponine that requres a lot of acting or a role like Cosette that needs unusual vocal skills..

This time he's got a role thats more like Nancy. His problem is that if you allow for age, acting ability, and rock presence he's got no one ideal to play it - even though its not that demanding with 3 solos.

I think Judas raises all sort of problems as well as having a bigger sing.. There's a stereotype of Jesus - but the stereotype of Judas could really be difficult to work with? Do you want people voting for the one who looks most shifty?

The role of Jesus equates to that of Nancy? You must be joking. In JCS, the roles of Jesus and Judas are fairly evenly matched in terms of stage time / singing. The whole piece is sung. Both Jesus & Judas do plenty of singing apart from just the main songs. Mary Magdalene is next in the line-up and has 3 great songs but has little else to do in terms of singing. JC & JI are the standout main roles in JCS.

Joseph, Christine, Cosette and Eponine don't come anywhere near close to the role of JC.

Also Judas isn't meant to be or look shifty. Although the film with Carl Anderson makes him look that way.

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by ewoodie

No more than a co-star? If the main role as you say is Judas then who is Jesus a co-star with?

Jesus is given the top billing in JCS. IMHO The roles are more or less equal. The film you mention is not the best example of JCS. On film the audience only see the shots the director wants them to see. Lots of shots of Judas sulking and skulking do not mnke him the main character. See it live. Then judge.

Thanks for confirming that I'm not going mad.

Saw the original production twice and Judas certainly was not the lead.

[ewoodie]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

Thanks for confirming that I'm not going mad.

Saw the original production twice and Judas certainly was not the lead.

Phewww. Thank goodness for that. Films have a lot to answer for. Which production did you see?

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by ewoodie

Phewww. Thank goodness for that. Films have a lot to answer for. Which production did you see?

In London in the seventies and I cannot remember the name of the theatre.

What has infuriated me is that its only about six months ago that I had a big clear out and binned the programmes.
Its sods law of course that I'd like to look at the brochures now.

[ewoodie]

Originally Posted by DiamondDoll

In London in the seventies and I cannot remember the name of the theatre.

What has infuriated me is that its only about six months ago that I had a big clear out and binned the programmes.
Its sods law of course that I'd like to look at the brochures now.

That was the original London production. It was at the Palace Theatre. I saw that. It was a great production. I still have my programmes.

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by ewoodie

That was the original London production. It was at the Palace Theatre. I saw that. It was a great production. I still have my programmes.

That's right.
Annoy me even more.

btw..........weren't Herod's two songs sooooooooooo well done?

[lady_xanax]

Jesus is ultimately the main character. The story may be told through Judas' POV but it's all about Jesus. They need somebody with some charisma, and the only two I think have any are Nathan and Roger.

Personally I think Roger would have been great as Judas. Maybe he could be a Judas understudy?

[LaurieMarlow]

I don't think this matters in the slightest. As others have said, Nancy's not the 'main' part in Oliver by any stretch of the imagination.

One of the key things is to cast a character that the audience know already, so that they can bring that understanding to their decision when they vote. Otherwise, engagement is going to be low.

Jesus fits this bill, in that the audience at home have an idea of what they want to see in terms of personality/character/'look' of the actor - and this was true of Maria/Nancy/Joseph/Dorothy.

Much as I would love to see a search for say Nathan Detriot in Guys & Dolls, the character is too obscure to work in this format.

Looking at past shows, I see most comparison with Maria, because both parts are really tough sings. Joseph, for example, isn't a particularly taxing part as leading man role's go (thinking about acting/singing requirements).

Maybe that's why Any Dream was the most successful of these shows, because they were able to take quite a wide range of experience/singing/acting ability into the final 12. And that meant a wider variety of characters to get behind, more 'journey' candidates to support. JCS's final 11 are quite samey by comparison.

[DiamondDoll]

Originally Posted by LaurieMarlow

I don't think this matters in the slightest. As others have said, Nancy's not the 'main' part in Oliver by any stretch of the imagination.

One of the key things is to cast a character that the audience know already, so that they can bring that understanding to their decision when they vote. Otherwise, engagement is going to be low.

Jesus fits this bill, in that the audience at home have an idea of what they want to see in terms of personality/character/'look' of the actor - and this was true of Maria/Nancy/Joseph/Dorothy.

Much as I would love to see a search for say Nathan Detriot in Guys & Dolls, the character is too obscure to work in this format.

Looking at past shows, I see most comparison with Maria, because both parts are really tough sings. Joseph, for example, isn't a particularly taxing part as leading man role's go (thinking about acting/singing requirements).

Maybe that's why Any Dream was the most successful of these shows, because they were able to take quite a wide range of experience/singing/acting ability into the final 12. And that meant a wider variety of characters to get behind, more 'journey' candidates to support. JCS's final 11 are quite samey by comparison.

Yes indeed.
Phllip Schofield even managed it.

[Sullymo]

I have joined DS after reading some of the comments of which I totally disagree Nothing to do with who should be Jesus but the personal snide remarks directed ar both ALW and auditionees physical appearance. Ears, lisp. frog face etc. since when were these insulting remarks deemed to be part of a TV forum?
This Superstar must be the biggest mistake ALW has ever made in his career. First to transfer to ITV where hooligans shout out and scream in the audience. Boo if their favourite is criticised, and a forum which concentrates more on physical imperfections than a critique of the programme. Not the last few may I add.
I have watched all the ALW seaches for Maria, Joseph, Dorothy, Nancy et al and realised then that ALW gets who he wants( other than Jodie- yet she personifies Nancy) His shows Phantom, Cats and so on have brought musical theatre back to life. He appears a very strange introverted man who in the past at auditions has just said "no don't call us we'll call you" as is usual in showbusiness. This Cowell type rejection " this is so hard for me -pause- I can''t do this- pause- a few tears- and so on is ridiculous.
ALW is given corney jokes to try, in ITV's eyes to give him a personality transplant only makes a brilliant man look foolish.( he probably thinks he is so amusing) Very sad really.
This forums favourite appears to be Nathan- who I looked at on You tube, before it was removed. Whining about the judging. Just accept and forget, like Jon did so graciously.
In my oopinion Nathan does not fit my perception of Jesus. Robert Powell yes and Colin Firth as Darcy, they fit perfectly. Nathan to me is just too muscular and big. Someone else said he should be in WWRY. I agree.
As for voting and wasting your money going to line ALW's pockets. I don't think this actually happens. I understand gives lots to the performing arts from these programmes?

[lady_xanax]

I think they only gave money to performing arts when it was on the bbc- there was/is a bbc performing arts fund.

[thenetworkbabe]

Originally Posted by ewoodie

The role of Jesus equates to that of Nancy? You must be joking. In JCS, the roles of Jesus and Judas are fairly evenly matched in terms of stage time / singing. The whole piece is sung. Both Jesus & Judas do plenty of singing apart from just the main songs. Mary Magdalene is next in the line-up and has 3 great songs but has little else to do in terms of singing. JC & JI are the standout main roles in JCS.

Joseph, Christine, Cosette and Eponine don't come anywhere near close to the role of JC.

Also Judas isn't meant to be or look shifty. Although the film with Carl Anderson makes him look that way.

Christine is a far bigger role.She has more to do than the Phantom. Jesus is around a lot but you can hide him in with other people much of the time. You cna even get away with a Jonas brother as Marius if there's two stronger singers marking him most of the time. In terms of big solos to sing he's doing no more than Nancy.

Thats the whole point about Judas. The public would have no guide what to vote for and it would be even more random what feature they would decide on - too nice to be Judas, too handsome to be Judas, not shifty enough.......

[LaurieMarlow]

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

Thats the whole point about Judas. The public would have no guide what to vote for and it would be even more random what feature they would decide on - too nice to be Judas, too handsome to be Judas, not shifty enough.......

Yeah, I agree. If left to the public, I fear it would come down to 'one that looks most like an evil bastard' - and that would be upsetting.

For me, Judas is a brilliant part, requiring real subtlety. I don't trust the public with this one I'm afraid.

[ewoodie]

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

Christine is a far bigger role.She has more to do than the Phantom. Jesus is around a lot but you can hide him in with other people much of the time. You cna even get away with a Jonas brother as Marius if there's two stronger singers marking him most of the time. In terms of big solos to sing he's doing no more than Nancy.

Thats the whole point about Judas. The public would have no guide what to vote for and it would be even more random what feature they would decide on - too nice to be Judas, too handsome to be Judas, not shifty enough.......

In JCS, Jesus is never hidden away. Why would he be? He is the focal point of the entire show. That's why it's called Jesus Christ Superstar. You cannot get away with a Jonas Brother playing Jesus and put him in with 2 stronger singers. For one thing there is no opportunity to do so. Jesus is the main role and Judas is the second lead. They both have lots to do in the show. In JCS, the point of Jesus and Judas their differing points of view and confrontations.

Why on earth couldn't Judas be handsome? Nice- the man cast would be an actor you know! He's not a shifty character either. He just expresses his point of view and questions JC's actions. Through Tim Rice's lyrics the character does this quite brilliantly as do the other characters with their songs.

The Jonas brother wasn't hidden away well enough for me in the 25th anniversary DVD. His performance is well documented as weak amongst an otherwise outstanding cast.

If you think Christine or Nancy are in any way comparable or bigger roles than Jesus then that's your prerogative.

I've seen all the shows you mention - Les Miserables, Oliver, Phantom and JCS on stage and on film. Unfortunately, films/DVDs have a lot to answer for.