Does anyone else have a very soft spot for this one? The physically decayed Master, at the end of his regeneration cycle, was superbly creepy, and the psychic duel between the Doctor, and Chancellor Goth, when they were both psychologically connected in a dreamscape by the computer, fascinated me, and provided two superb cliffhangers: the one where the Doctor has his foot stuck in the railway line, with the oncoming steam train, and the one in which Goth seems on the verge of drowning him in the river.
Deadly Assassin
It's possibly my favourite ever story.
Because it feels so special - with The Doctor's voiceover introduction, seeing the Time Lords and how they live for the first time, no companion, the Master returning in rather a unique way, and the brutal fight to the death that led to the controversial episode ending that got Mary Whitehouse more mad than ever.
It's certainly one of a kind.
Because it feels so special - with The Doctor's voiceover introduction, seeing the Time Lords and how they live for the first time, no companion, the Master returning in rather a unique way, and the brutal fight to the death that led to the controversial episode ending that got Mary Whitehouse more mad than ever.
It's certainly one of a kind.
I love this story, it had everything. Great cliffhangers, humour, the Master returning, the Doctor on his own without a companion for the first time and the first story set on Gallifrey. The sets for Gallifrey were impressive for their time. I liked the scenes in the Matrix.
An absolute classic, as was nearly every story of this wonderful time in the show's history. I can only agree - the decaying Master, Chancellor Goth, the matrix, Castellan Spandrel and Commentator Runcible (the nearest thing to companions we have in this story) - all brilliant!
I think it's overrated; the first episode is excellent but it runs out of steam and episode 3 is just boring.
Dare I say it, some of the points raised in the first ming mong review of Who- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxGpCeoE6Bk maybe vaild, in my 'umble opinion.
Dare I say it, some of the points raised in the first ming mong review of Who- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxGpCeoE6Bk maybe vaild, in my 'umble opinion.
As a thread on this story has already been started very recently I saw no need to start another one. 
I quite like this story. I think the reinvention of the Time Lords by Robert Holmes is an interesting one which sets the tone for all future stories to feature them. I also like the fact that The Doctor has no companion for this one though I do miss having some female eye candy to look at!
The first episode where The Doctor is on his own works well but I don't think it could have worked permanently as The Doctor would just spend numerous amounts of time talking to himself!
Also liked the new-'look' Master. I think sufficient time would have passed by this point since Roger Delgado's death to accept Peter Pratt in this gruesome and grotesque parody of the character. Certainly there is no charm left in The Master anymore, and I liked the fact that his hatred for The Doctor and the Time Lords was the one thing that kept him going. Also liked the tie-in with the Pertwee Master stories at the end where he is seen to make his last minute escape.
Episode 3 is an amusing diversion from the rest of the story. I think it was very different for Doctor Who as well. I liked the idea of the Matrix and it's whole premise that anything is possible. This leaves open numerous possibilities and storylines. It's a shame the Time Lords were killed of in the New Series as I think with modern effects what could be done with the Matrix now. Would be absolutely awesome.
Really like this story, though, and it's a shame The Master didn't appear again until towards the end of the 4th Doctor's Era.
I quite like this story. I think the reinvention of the Time Lords by Robert Holmes is an interesting one which sets the tone for all future stories to feature them. I also like the fact that The Doctor has no companion for this one though I do miss having some female eye candy to look at!
The first episode where The Doctor is on his own works well but I don't think it could have worked permanently as The Doctor would just spend numerous amounts of time talking to himself!
Also liked the new-'look' Master. I think sufficient time would have passed by this point since Roger Delgado's death to accept Peter Pratt in this gruesome and grotesque parody of the character. Certainly there is no charm left in The Master anymore, and I liked the fact that his hatred for The Doctor and the Time Lords was the one thing that kept him going. Also liked the tie-in with the Pertwee Master stories at the end where he is seen to make his last minute escape.
Episode 3 is an amusing diversion from the rest of the story. I think it was very different for Doctor Who as well. I liked the idea of the Matrix and it's whole premise that anything is possible. This leaves open numerous possibilities and storylines. It's a shame the Time Lords were killed of in the New Series as I think with modern effects what could be done with the Matrix now. Would be absolutely awesome.
Really like this story, though, and it's a shame The Master didn't appear again until towards the end of the 4th Doctor's Era.
Originally Posted by JCR:
“I think it's overrated; the first episode is excellent but it runs out of steam and episode 3 is just boring.
Dare I say it, some of the points raised in the first ming mong review of Who- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxGpCeoE6Bk maybe vaild, in my 'umble opinion.”
“I think it's overrated; the first episode is excellent but it runs out of steam and episode 3 is just boring.
Dare I say it, some of the points raised in the first ming mong review of Who- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxGpCeoE6Bk maybe vaild, in my 'umble opinion.
”
I'm with you on this, JCR. I am unfussed by this. It doesn't feel like DW. There's so much self-important pompousness in it that it could be a David Tennant story (except Tom Baker didn't snivel). Those sequences in the Matrix are endless, and Mary Whitehouse was right about initable violence being inappropriate for DW.
Remember the affable but nervous bumbling Gallifreyan TV announcer character, who knew the Doctor at school, in this story? I found his death scene quite disturbing, when he comes walking slowly to the others, saying, 'Do excuse me; I'm so sorry...' in his usual awkward way, then suddenly collapses-and we see he has a big lance-like thing impaled in his back! It's the contrast between how good-natured and gentle he seems, and his vicious end that makes this scene powerful, for me.
I'm not a big fan of this, Tom Baker may not have liked them but companions are an essential part of Who for me and this suffers without them.
Originally Posted by Phoenix Lazarus:
“Remember the affable but nervous bumbling Gallifreyan TV announcer character, who knew the Doctor at school, in this story? I found his death scene quite disturbing, when he comes walking slowly to the others, saying, 'Do excuse me; I'm so sorry...' in his usual awkward way, then suddenly collapses-and we see he has a big lance-like thing impaled in his back! It's the contrast between how good-natured and gentle he seems, and his vicious end that makes this scene powerful, for me.”
“Remember the affable but nervous bumbling Gallifreyan TV announcer character, who knew the Doctor at school, in this story? I found his death scene quite disturbing, when he comes walking slowly to the others, saying, 'Do excuse me; I'm so sorry...' in his usual awkward way, then suddenly collapses-and we see he has a big lance-like thing impaled in his back! It's the contrast between how good-natured and gentle he seems, and his vicious end that makes this scene powerful, for me.”
Hugh Walters is great!
His extermination in Revelation of the Daleks is another disturbing scene (Revelation always leaves me feeling creeped out).
He's also outstandingly good in the BBC's original (70s) Survivors series, and is very poignant as drunken and rambling Charles Hawtrey in Cor Blimey.
Originally Posted by Phoenix Lazarus:
“Does anyone else have a very soft spot for this one? The physically decayed Master, at the end of his regeneration cycle, was superbly creepy, and the psychic duel between the Doctor, and Chancellor Goth, when they were both psychologically connected in a dreamscape by the computer, fascinated me, and provided two superb cliffhangers: the one where the Doctor has his foot stuck in the railway line, with the oncoming steam train, and the one in which Goth seems on the verge of drowning him in the river.”
“Does anyone else have a very soft spot for this one? The physically decayed Master, at the end of his regeneration cycle, was superbly creepy, and the psychic duel between the Doctor, and Chancellor Goth, when they were both psychologically connected in a dreamscape by the computer, fascinated me, and provided two superb cliffhangers: the one where the Doctor has his foot stuck in the railway line, with the oncoming steam train, and the one in which Goth seems on the verge of drowning him in the river.”
A great episode without any companions.
Originally Posted by Phoenix Lazarus:
“Does anyone else have a very soft spot for this one? The physically decayed Master, at the end of his regeneration cycle, was superbly creepy, and the psychic duel between the Doctor, and Chancellor Goth, when they were both psychologically connected in a dreamscape by the computer, fascinated me, and provided two superb cliffhangers: the one where the Doctor has his foot stuck in the railway line, with the oncoming steam train, and the one in which Goth seems on the verge of drowning him in the river.”
“Does anyone else have a very soft spot for this one? The physically decayed Master, at the end of his regeneration cycle, was superbly creepy, and the psychic duel between the Doctor, and Chancellor Goth, when they were both psychologically connected in a dreamscape by the computer, fascinated me, and provided two superb cliffhangers: the one where the Doctor has his foot stuck in the railway line, with the oncoming steam train, and the one in which Goth seems on the verge of drowning him in the river.”
I often think the cliffhangers in the Hinchcliffe Era were amongst the finest there ever were and the two you mention here are certainly up there amongst the best. The two you mention are both good ones as it really did get you wondering how the heck The Doctor was going to get out of both of them.
Originally Posted by chuffnobbler:
“I'm with you on this, JCR. I am unfussed by this. It doesn't feel like DW. There's so much self-important pompousness in it that it could be a David Tennant story (except Tom Baker didn't snivel). Those sequences in the Matrix are endless, and Mary Whitehouse was right about initable violence being inappropriate for DW.”
“I'm with you on this, JCR. I am unfussed by this. It doesn't feel like DW. There's so much self-important pompousness in it that it could be a David Tennant story (except Tom Baker didn't snivel). Those sequences in the Matrix are endless, and Mary Whitehouse was right about initable violence being inappropriate for DW.”
Though I agree with you about the violence, in hindsight, it's nothing really compared to what followed later on Season 22. I love all that Matrix stuff, though, it's one of the reasons I love the Ultimate Foe so much as it was quite central to that story. It really gives you so many options and almost unlimited creativity with what you can do within it. I think it was used quite well in both matrix stories.
Originally Posted by Phoenix Lazarus:
“Remember the affable but nervous bumbling Gallifreyan TV announcer character, who knew the Doctor at school, in this story? I found his death scene quite disturbing, when he comes walking slowly to the others, saying, 'Do excuse me; I'm so sorry...' in his usual awkward way, then suddenly collapses-and we see he has a big lance-like thing impaled in his back! It's the contrast between how good-natured and gentle he seems, and his vicious end that makes this scene powerful, for me.”
“Remember the affable but nervous bumbling Gallifreyan TV announcer character, who knew the Doctor at school, in this story? I found his death scene quite disturbing, when he comes walking slowly to the others, saying, 'Do excuse me; I'm so sorry...' in his usual awkward way, then suddenly collapses-and we see he has a big lance-like thing impaled in his back! It's the contrast between how good-natured and gentle he seems, and his vicious end that makes this scene powerful, for me.”
I personally find Goth's death more disturbing. Mainly because Robert Holmes really kept The Master's basic character exactly the same as his first appearance in that he uses people, then disposes of them when he no longer needs them. Here was a Time Lord who served him well and he destroyed him in the worse way possible in order to try and kill The Doctor. Though I agree Runcible's death was dramatic, I found Goth's had more impact at a crucial point in the story.
One of my favourite Classic Who stories. I'll have to put it on my re-watch list, it's been a few years since I lasted watched it.
Originally Posted by gslam2:
“I'm not a big fan of this, Tom Baker may not have liked them but companions are an essential part of Who for me and this suffers without them.”
“I'm not a big fan of this, Tom Baker may not have liked them but companions are an essential part of Who for me and this suffers without them.”
I certainly wouldn't like to do without a companion for long, but as a one-off, I think it works without one.
Watched this story again, I just love all the Matrix stuff, I would happily have a 10-episode story take place in the Matrix as the possibilities are endless. I don't think it's a coincidence that I love The Ultimate Foe too, which also involves the Matrix.
One of the criticisms though is that although it is Goth that is controlling the Matrix, it's all very Earth-like in what is used against the Doctor, including things like the train. Seems unlikely that Goth would be so familiar with Earth, so maybe he is using the Doctor's own knowledge of Earth against him since the Doctor's mind is linked up to the Matrix too (that's my theory anyway
) or the Master had something to do with it, but nothing is really explained about it.
I also love the use of green, making Gallifrey look very stylish and grand. Plus the long-shot of the room where the Doctor is being tortured in looks incredible and strangely high-budget.
One of the criticisms though is that although it is Goth that is controlling the Matrix, it's all very Earth-like in what is used against the Doctor, including things like the train. Seems unlikely that Goth would be so familiar with Earth, so maybe he is using the Doctor's own knowledge of Earth against him since the Doctor's mind is linked up to the Matrix too (that's my theory anyway
) or the Master had something to do with it, but nothing is really explained about it.I also love the use of green, making Gallifrey look very stylish and grand. Plus the long-shot of the room where the Doctor is being tortured in looks incredible and strangely high-budget.
Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“I love all that Matrix stuff, though, it's one of the reasons I love the Ultimate Foe so much as it was quite central to that story. It really gives you so many options and almost unlimited creativity with what you can do within it. I think it was used quite well in both matrix stories.”
“I love all that Matrix stuff, though, it's one of the reasons I love the Ultimate Foe so much as it was quite central to that story. It really gives you so many options and almost unlimited creativity with what you can do within it. I think it was used quite well in both matrix stories.”
I love the Ultimate Foe! I think there's real joy, energy and fun in those Matrix scenes, while the Assassin ones are joyless, self-indulgently weird, and a bit aggravating.
TUF has an internal logic to its Matrix scenes, creepy Victorian atmosphere, great locations, and Geoffrey Hughes (may he rest) is excellent as Mr Popplewick. I have always liked Pip & Jane Baker's scripts, as they are full of ideas and energy and "oomph".
TDA's Matrix scenes are a bit too alpha male for my liking, and it seems that absoluetly anything could have happened in those scenes as the various events are all so disjointed and unconnected.
I loved all the weird surrealness of the matrix, like the clown's face the Doctor sees on a patch on the ground, and the World War one soldier and horse in gasmasks-as well as the fact the men manning the steam railway where the Doctor gets trapped all have masks on, which made it all more menacing and surreal.
Originally Posted by chuffnobbler:
“I love the Ultimate Foe! I think there's real joy, energy and fun in those Matrix scenes, while the Assassin ones are joyless, self-indulgently weird, and a bit aggravating.
TUF has an internal logic to its Matrix scenes, creepy Victorian atmosphere, great locations, and Geoffrey Hughes (may he rest) is excellent as Mr Popplewick. I have always liked Pip & Jane Baker's scripts, as they are full of ideas and energy and "oomph".
TDA's Matrix scenes are a bit too alpha male for my liking, and it seems that absoluetly anything could have happened in those scenes as the various events are all so disjointed and unconnected.”
“I love the Ultimate Foe! I think there's real joy, energy and fun in those Matrix scenes, while the Assassin ones are joyless, self-indulgently weird, and a bit aggravating.
TUF has an internal logic to its Matrix scenes, creepy Victorian atmosphere, great locations, and Geoffrey Hughes (may he rest) is excellent as Mr Popplewick. I have always liked Pip & Jane Baker's scripts, as they are full of ideas and energy and "oomph".
TDA's Matrix scenes are a bit too alpha male for my liking, and it seems that absoluetly anything could have happened in those scenes as the various events are all so disjointed and unconnected.”
I think both Matrix stories are different in tone. The Deadly Assassin is a much more serious affair whilst The Ultimate Foe was more light-hearted in accord with the humour from that Season really. I do prefer TUF as I said but the Matrix in this story is still superbly realised and if anything more threatening and menacingly than the latter story.
