[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

It really doesn't hurt to use words people ask you to use, you know.

The objection isn't to using the word "transition"; it's to the idea that we shouldn't refer to the transition as a change, and that we have to use "transition" every time, in every context, even if the result is awkward and ungrammatical.

[mazey]

Originally Posted by boshealecta

It wasnt the fact she said it was unique I cant fully remember but it was almost like she was saying it was a good thing he got to be both sexes, im sure it really isnt and yes unless you have earned someones friendship you cant make flippant/joke comments about something they have been through.

Also its been said many a time by various people that someone who is transgender may object to the word change, regardless of how he corrected Becky thats the fact, for people to be saying I dont know whats wrong with the word change, well Im afraid thats just how it is, im sure some transgender people dont mind the word change, some will, just respect that and stop trying to justify words at the end of the day if someone doesnt like what word is used to describe them then thats their choice.

As for the unique and interesting experience I got the impression Caroline was almost making out it must be great to be both sexes, if thats the case people would be undergoing the long and difficult process on a whim all the time. It was the way in which is was said, I know its not comparable but if someone was talking about being persecuted for being Jewish in Nazi Germany then being liberated, someone saying you got the best of both worlds and what an interesting experience wouldnt be the best thing you could hear

I agree, she said it as if it was buying a piece of clothing in two colours so you could wear both. There was no empathy.

Well done on supporting your argument for using the vocabulary preferred by people concerned.

Originally Posted by Flight815-23D

Considering Luke A had a conversation with Becky about it weeks ago (back before the bolt of thunder made her a Conor drone), where he explained things for an hour in detail, she of all people should've known. We all watched him explain it to her.

Thank you, I remember reading an account about Luke spending a lot of time explaining and a short video clip with Becky doing her usual trying to escape look when she got more than an opportunity to look caring in a 10 second shot.

Becky is incapable of listening, she prefers to make things up to suit her agenda.

[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

No, there's no justification for being a nasty, silly little girl who needs to grow up. Would you be sitting there justifying her if she'd laughed at someone asking not to be called "coloured" but to be called "black"? Why are trans people's feelings of lesser importance?

That's an unreasonable comparison.

As I said earlier, sometimes a piece of ordinary language acquires a weight of historical prejudice and oppression that makes it offensive. But I've yet to see any reason to think that referring to a sex or gender transition as a change is such a case.

A transition is a kind of change. Even if the correct terminology is "transition", there should be nothing wrong with referring to it as a "change", because it is a change.

[paralax]

If Caroline laughing at Luke A, for whatever reason, was her only faux pas then fine, but it isn't.
She seems to have contempt for everyone, because she is arrogent and ignornant. The nastiness just comes natural to her, which is disturbing.

[Veri]

Originally Posted by mazey

...

Thank you, I remember reading an account about Luke spending a lot of time explaining and a short video clip with Becky doing her usual trying to escape look when she got more than an opportunity to look caring in a 10 second shot.

Becky is incapable of listening, she prefers to make things up to suit her agenda.

Luke and Becky had a conversation, but did he explain that she shouldn't use the word "change"? I don't recall anything like that, nor can I find any post saying he'd said anything about that.

[LIZALYNN]

Originally Posted by Veri

The objection isn't to using the word "transition"; it's to the idea that we shouldn't refer to the transition as a change, and that we have to use "transition" every time, in every context, even if the result is awkward and ungrammatical.

Thanks for explaining. So "transition" is the process of physically altering the body to the "correct" sex rather than describing the final result of the completed surgery.
Why then is the completed surgery so often still refered to as a sex change, or is that when the word "change" can only be used?
I still don't think Luke A should have talked about it at the dinner table. He must have known it would cause awkward conflict.

[Sasparella]

Originally Posted by LIZALYNN

Thanks for explaining. So "transition" is the process of physically altering the body to the "correct" sex rather than describing the final result of the completed surgery.
Why then is the completed surgery so often still refered to as a sex change, or is that when the word "change" can only be used?
I still don't think Luke A should have talked about it at the dinner table. He must have known it would cause awkward conflict.

They had topic suggestions on the table from BB that they had to discuss, this one was about if they had any regrets in their lives.

[mazey]

Originally Posted by Veri

Luke and Becky had a conversation, but did he explain that she shouldn't use the word "change"? I don't recall anything like that, nor can I find any post saying he'd said anything about that.

I read a lot of the reports on the C5 site daily; too many to recall in detail, just the gist and my impression. At the time I thought he was wasting his time, politely answering her questions, some seemed rather prurient. Later I saw a video clip and that confirmed my impression, her eyes were not looking at him and she had that get me out of here look she wears when there is a danger she may learn something.

I cannot say what day this happened, at a guess it could be when she was up for eviction.

For someone who wants to be in Community Theatre, I would have thought sensitivity to language would be a pre-requisite.

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Veri

That's an unreasonable comparison.

As I said earlier, sometimes a piece of ordinary language acquires a weight of historical prejudice and oppression that makes it offensive. But I've yet to see any reason to think that referring to a sex or gender transition as a change is such a case.

A transition is a kind of change. Even if the correct terminology is "transition", there should be nothing wrong with referring to it as a "change", because it is a change..

And coloured is a perfectly good word for black because black is a colour, right? You argue against yourself here.

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by LIZALYNN

Thanks for explaining. So "transition" is the process of physically altering the body to the "correct" sex rather than describing the final result of the completed surgery.
Why then is the completed surgery so often still refered to as a sex change, or is that when the word "change" can only be used?
I still don't think Luke A should have talked about it at the dinner table. He must have known it would cause awkward conflict.

Sex change is a layman's term. Elsewhere it's referred to as gender realignment or reassignment surgery.

Why should Luke modify his topics of conversation to suit those who have a problem with him?

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Veri

Luke and Becky had a conversation, but did he explain that she shouldn't use the word "change"? I don't recall anything like that, nor can I find any post saying he'd said anything about that.

So now she knows. What's the problem with him correcting her? There is none. Caroline is a nasty, boorish little madam who has no regard for the feelings of others, despite her lachrymose performances in the DR.

[Sasparella]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

And coloured is a perfectly good word for black because black is a colour, right? You argue against yourself here.

No it's not, black is a specific colour, coloured could mean sky blue pink !

Edited :- Ooops sorry, didn't read your post properly then lol

[hulakula]

Benedict said on his radio show that he had to constantly remind people in the house that Luke was transitioning and wasn't having a 'sex change'.

[Inconjunct]

*sigh* the point I'm making is that it really is a more adult, mature and civilised thing to do to use the words people would prefer you to use about their skin colour or gender realignment surgery or whatever and people defending Caroline are being rather silly, at best.

[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

And coloured is a perfectly good word for black because black is a colour, right? You argue against yourself here.

Only if you ignore the middle paragraph of my post.

[Sasparella]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

*sigh* the point I'm making is that it really is a more adult, mature and civilised thing to do to use the words people would prefer you to use about their skin colour or gender realignment surgery or whatever and people defending Caroline are being rather silly, at best.

If that's to me I'd already apologised for not reading your post properly in my edit. It is rather early for me lol.

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Veri

Only if you ignore the middle paragraph of my post.

Nope, not at all

Words acquire meaning, as you said, and change is now considered inappropriate for the process Luke is going through. What's the big problem here?

[Veri]

Originally Posted by LIZALYNN

Thanks for explaining. So "transition" is the process of physically altering the body to the "correct" sex rather than describing the final result of the completed surgery.
Why then is the completed surgery so often still refered to as a sex change, or is that when the word "change" can only be used?
I still don't think Luke A should have talked about it at the dinner table. He must have known it would cause awkward conflict.

As I understand it, "transition" is meant to cover a wide range of different things someone might do to align themself more with their gender identity. So it doesn't necessarily involve surgery.

I think the process vs completed issue is a red herring. Both "change" and "transition" could be used for either.

"Sex change" seems like out of date language to me, and it may have picked up some negative associations.

But that doesn't mean the word "change" shouldn't ever be used. For example, in the Wikipedia entry for "Transitioning", it says "Transitioning is the process of changing one's gender presentation to accord with one's internal sense of one's gender - the idea of what it means to be a man or woman."

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Sasparella

If that's to me I'd already apologised for not reading your post properly in my edit. It is rather early for me lol.

It's ok, I forget sometimes that not everyone is an early bird like me: up and firing on all cylinders by 5:30

[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

Nope, not at all

That's exactly what was done to create the bogus claim about how I regarded "coloured".

Words acquire meaning, as you said, and change is now considered inappropriate for the process Luke is going through. What's the big problem here?

There's no big problem. But I've yet to see any reason to think that referring to a sex or gender transition as a change is a case like "coloured" or other words that have acquired a weight of historical prejudice and oppression that makes them offensive.

[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

So now she knows. What's the problem with him correcting her? There is none. Caroline is a nasty, boorish little madam who has no regard for the feelings of others, despite her lachrymose performances in the DR.

Becky's the one who said "change", not Caroline.

[LIZALYNN]

Originally Posted by Veri

That's exactly what was done to create the bogus claim about how I regarded "coloured".



There's no big problem. But I've yet to see any reason to think that referring to a sex or gender transition as a change is a case like "coloured" or other words that have acquired a weight of historical prejudice and oppression that makes them offensive.

How true.
We will all be winking at each other soon rather like my grandmother did in the 60's for fear of using an offensive word. I can barely keep up with it.

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Veri

Becky's the one who said "change", not Caroline.

Yes, and Caroline laughed at Luke for correcting her.

[Inconjunct]

Originally Posted by Veri

That's exactly what was done to create the bogus claim about how I etc.

There was no claim, bogus or otherwise, about how you regard the word "coloured". I was simply making an analogy to illustrate how it really is much better to listen to people about the words they'd prefer to be used about their identity etc.

[Veri]

Originally Posted by Inconjunct

There was no claim, bogus or otherwise, about how you regard the word "coloured". I was simply making an analogy to illustrate how it really is much better to listen to people about the words they'd prefer to be used about their identity etc.

No, you made a claim that I was arguing against myself, by responding as if the middle paragraph of my post did not exist.