[richie wild]

Our CR station is crap but I listen to Biggles FM online, that's a great little station with some appointment to listen shows. CR can sound good with decent presenters and correctly skewed music. I think Tony Blackburn would do CR at least once a week if he had no contracts like he has now, because he is passionate about RADIO.

[mikw]

"Cassaboys" posts are, frankly, laughable.

I was listening to a community Radio station the other day that had a phone in about sexual abuse. It was amazing, thought provoking, radio.

As opposed to what on the commercial stations?

[SmartProgrammer]

Originally Posted by mikw

"Cassaboys" posts are, frankly, laughable.

I disagree. His posts speak some truth and it's refreshing to see another poster on Digital Spy that actually 'gets it'.

Originally Posted by richie wild

but I listen to Biggles FM online.

And whoever approved that name really needs talking to. C'mon, Biggles FM...really? I knows it comes from 'Biggleswade' in Bedfordshire, but is "Biggles FM" some kind of joke?

[Phil Dodd]

Originally Posted by casaboy22

Not at all. I've helped with several community radio projects over a 20 year career as a producer and programmer. The problem that sounds the death knell is always the same; focus. No-one can ever agree on who the station is aiming at.

This thread has proved that there are some good discussions at times on this forum. It's good to read the posts of professionals giving their viewpoint from many decades, as several of you have done.

Casaboy22 has hit the nail on the head as regards any organisation or grouping of people. The first thing needed is an objective – you're there in the pub, having said that what this town needs is a radio station to keep everyone informed. The group of six grows to a gang of twenty, and at that stage, you need a mission statement.

One of the leaders needs to have organisational and technical experience – a sort of super producer, whose decisions must be final when it gets in operation. The two people who I know ( as a mere listener ) who run CR stations both have decades of experience under their belts, having previously worked for BBC local stations and local commercial radio.

There is now nowhere in the UK that there isn't a selection of stations available with presenters playing music tracks all day long. There is just no point in setting up a network of community stations to do more of the same.

There is a lot of point in having a local talking shop covering news, current affairs and documentaries. Historically it is important. Local newspapers are transforming into internet-based resources, shedding circulation of printed copies. BBC local radio doesn't have the budget to cover things thoroughly.

Nowhere is being recorded the spoken word of local characters and events. For future generations, our local history being made now is going to be very difficult to return to; for instance the MACE archives of old Midlands Today and other video footage is often all that is available. If CR can record and save all of that for posterity, it would be a valuable service. Even video could be made for archive and Youtube; surplus outlets such as Morgan Computers sell HD recorders cheaply enough.

There's surely also the hope that in the future, CR could tie up with ( and be part of the same organisation as ) BBC local radio, and so feed BBC LR good-quality news and documentaries about the locality.

As regards funding, surely it is necessary to maintain editorial independence ? Playing an advert for, or having sponsorship from, a local business, and then machine-gunning them in the next local news bulletin, is not going to work, which is why being fully commercial with loads of ads is not a good idea. Listening to local commercial stations, as I do a lot, they go out of their way not to criticise anyone or to mention brand names. Surely CR needs to be more editorially free than that ?

So as a listener who knows little, it seems to me that CR has a good future as news/information/current affairs and documentaries, part of a reformed structure of public service broadcasting that the UK needs, feeding material upwards, archiving material, and as part of a career structure with relevant training.

As a channel for a bunch of kids playing at being DJs and broadcasting to their friends round the town, it's going to be a totally pointless waste of time. Those kids ( of all ages ) would do better at a party playing their music together.

Whether CR goes on to become a corner-stone of UK broadcasting, or is a pointless exercise, depends upon the right objectives being made at the beginning. And that just is not being a music channel.

[Mapperley Ridge]

I think casaboy makes some good points, and whilst I'm thrilled for Paul Evans' expeirience with community radio, I'm afriad that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Too many community radio stations are run by committees of people who all have different ideas about the "right" way to do things. This leads to divisions of ideas, clashes of personlaities and ultimately the imploding of some staions. Or worse still, multiple stations in the same markets, all biting at each other's limited access to advertising revenue.

So could it be the "new local radio". Not with that approach.

[ceemage]

Originally Posted by GreenVisual

Community stations with networked shows?

Never say never, but I would be nervous about this, except in very particular circumstances.

For instance, a weekly news magazine programme, that picked up local news stories as covered by a range of community radio stations, might be an example of good community radio level networking.

On a similar theme, there was an initiative in the North East of England to cover the 2010 General Election night using a network of community radio stations, as described here.

But networking generic music radio is falling into the trap of trying to ape the Hearts & Capitals of this world.

[Mapperley Ridge]

There's at least one CR station which broadcasts the Vodafone Top 40. Ridiculous in my opinion.

[andy.saunders]

Yes I agree, they shouldn't take that

[richie wild]

Originally Posted by SmartProgrammer

I disagree. His posts speak some truth and it's refreshing to see another poster on Digital Spy that actually 'gets it'.

And whoever approved that name really needs talking to. C'mon, Biggles FM...really? I knows it comes from 'Biggleswade' in Bedfordshire, but is "Biggles FM" some kind of joke?

Not knowing the area, I thought it was named after the pilot

[Musicmasterprox]

Originally Posted by Mapperley Ridge

There's at least one CR station which broadcasts the Vodafone Top 40. Ridiculous in my opinion.

It's a "wannabe commercial radio station" called Ambersound FM. This is why I disagree with the 'community radio is the next commercial radio' topic. Most 'city centre community stations' nowadays want to compete with a nearby existing station by having 'rejects'/'2-faced' presenters.. Horrible 80s-like jingles.. I'm not saying that all Community stations are like this, but given the experience that I've had at Castle FM/Leith FM. I say that community radio should never be compared to a professional commercial radio station.

My best example of a community station is Heartland FM. One of the earliest ones of its kind, unlike others, Heartland has always stuck to its main roots/audience.

[andy.saunders]

Amber Sound does sound great, I presented a few shows on there earlier on in the year.

[bluesdiamond]

Originally Posted by RadiogeekNE

Well put and I agree community radio can be very rewarding! I also believe a new radio age has been born... and yes it is in its infancy, but I believe it will grow into something quite interestin!

I hope that as Community radio matures it offers more than what it does now.
In the two big urban areas locally it seems to 'urban' music, or in the semi rural area am 'oldies' station.
At present nothing in 'local' radio draws me away from the BBC. I only listen occasionally to two commercial stations but as my DAB is my radio alarm Five Live is a default for the news at 5am.

[mikw]

Originally Posted by SmartProgrammer

I disagree. His posts speak some truth and it's refreshing to see another poster on Digital Spy that actually 'gets it'.

And i would argue, that a prime time phone in about sexual abuse shows that some Community Radio is offering more than the commercial sector was already - don't you agree?

[Gary Brenton]

An interesting thread...and good to hear that radio listeners are (at last) starting to listen to community radio stations and taking them seriously because i think that this is a brand new era of radio.

Community radio (albeit in it's infancy) is doing (or attempting) to do what 'local' commercial radio was originally made for long before the take-over of our once (and much respected) local radio stations.

As most of us would agree...our once loved 'local' stations are now capured by networked groups of which offer almost no local community based programming whatsoever.

My area as such has no cummunity radio...but I do live between two local(ish) community stations which are 'Big City' radio (89.1) from Birmingham and WCR fm (101.8) from Wolverhampton and they both offer great 'community' output and they both focus on their own areas and offer a decent variety of music throughout the day.

The only thing I disagree with community radio is too much specialised programming of which I cannot see the point of if there are other stations of which provide this on a 24/7 basis from other stations.

I tend to rely on both the stations I mentioned for my FM listening because I know I will get a decent variation of music without the repetitive drivel of normal radio.

[DoctorDave]

One of the ongoing difficulties about adding to this thread is that I doubt that many of the contributors have heard more than about (maximum) fifteen CR stations, and are making their comments on their experiences of those, which is fair enough, but it's a small sample of the 200+ stations which have all been licensed with different promises of performance, aims and objectives and targetted social gains.
It may well be that the OFCOM model of selection is flawed, but it's the only show in town at the moment - perhaps until the DCMS decide that they are going to wrest control of the sector from them - and as such, for the time being, we are 'stuck' with the way that OFCOM choose to administer the sector.
It would beinteresting to hear about a wider selection of the currently broadcasting stations than those that regularly appear on the digital spy forums, and perhaps the summer, holidays, and travel will provide an opportunity to discuss some of the stations that haven't so far made it into the debate? There's some great stuff out there, as well as those stations trying to be wannabe commercial stations.

[Mapperley Ridge]

Dave, I'm afraid first impressions count. And actually, listening to 15 community stations is more than a fair enough sample. I know what you mean about the same old handful of stations names appearing on here. And yes, there are some very well run examples.

My challenge would be for those good guys to club together and help the rest of the sector. I'm not sure how much networking (of people, not output) the CRA does in this manner. But at present, much of the CR sector would appear to be dogged by in-fighting, terrible management and little focus.

In addition, the landscape becomes ever more blurred with the proliferation of online stations purporting to be offering a local service. Another thread is dedicated to West Country Radio - its website demonstrates exactly the kind of lack of knowledge and direction I'm referring to.

[DoctorDave]

[quote=Mapperley Ridge;59959100
My challenge would be for those good guys to club together and help the rest of the sector. I'm not sure how much networking (of people, not output) the CRA does in this manner. But at present, much of the CR sector would appear to be dogged by in-fighting, terrible management and little focus. .[/QUOTE]

CMA? There's a regular correspondence between the same small group on the forum most of the time. The main focus over the last few weeks has been payments to the royalty collecting organisations, and I missed the annual conference which was held in Bath recently. Several of the issues raised in your last sentence are financial,and both you and I know that that isn't restricted to the CR sector - I imagine that in the current financial situation most CR operators are too involved in the day to day business of raising money for their stations to worry about the state of their industry, if indeed that's what it is!
It's a long way from the days when an ILR station local to here used to have a weekly programme from Strasbourg about emergent EU policies.

[Mapperley Ridge]

But it's not always financial. I've seen committee members arguing over really minor points, or airing their dirty washing via local newspapers. It so often comes down to a Chairman or senior person in the hierarchy disagreeing with A N Other who probably knows a good deal more about the business than they do. This could be, for example, a former ILR jock offering their services for free - or someone who knows a bit about sales, only to be told that the station isn't selling commercial airtime. The latter being a real example.

[Kerijones]

Interesting thread. In my view, CR is like ILR was in the 70s and 80s- each station has it's own sound and way of doing things- some are good, some are bad. But they are different and there can be an element of distinct local flavour, if there is a strong identity to reflect. Not every town really has that. The variety of service style could be viewed as part of it's benefit/charm and even a potential problem as achieving regional or national sales without any homogeneity and with no ratings will/has been quite a task. Whether CR can replace ILR, I'm not so sure. Maybe with increased convergence and 4G and in-car dash board web browsers a CR can compete. The fundamental issue currently is one of signal strength. A 25W-100 W limit, most CR will only give ILR a run for it's money in small towns where the signal doesn't degrade. It's just not going to make any impact in a patch where commuting is important.

There's been lots of talk of what is and what is not appropriate in terms of programming. The beauty of CR is that it really depends on your objectives AND/OR how you are funded.

I personally don't see any issue whatsoever with Amber Sound providing a rebroadcast of a networked chart show if they achieve their key performance indicators with the bulk of their programming.I've always taken the view that if the community is being served, as per licence terms, then it's better to have a listenable product for as many hours as is sustainable and syndication can help with that. Surely their volunteers will gain more from being involved with a consistent sounding service that is actually listened to, rather than a schedule entirely filled with cringeworthy 'vanity shows'?

There are some CR stations which I'd place into that category.

I don't think that networking would be a bad thing, if a sustain service was made available which could allow for localisation. That could allow time and cash poor stations to concentrate on their key hours and commitments whilst offering a consistent product in off-peak. But I suspect it'll never happen because there's no money without ratings in it or consistency within the sector. And that would be hard to drive forward a service that people agreed on from within a sector which contains, from my experience, quite a high degree of opinionated ex-professional radio know-alls (myself included)!

My view has always been that I would wish my service to remain the default listen in workplaces and homes from dawn 'til teatime because we rely on 50% of our income from commercial advertising and it HAS to be heard so clients' ads works. From listening to what I term the 'professional' CR stations like HFM and The Eye, they take the similar view.
If their objective is to provide airtime for local events, local news and information in a community that would be overlooked by regionalised, corporate ILR, then it is a case of 'job done'.

I think one of the big myths is that there will be hundreds of willing volunteers who wish to come forward and host shows.
This is not always the case, certainly after an initial spurge of interest has waned. I feel that, if you were blindfolded and driven to a mystery location and could, after an hour of daytime peaktime listening suss out where you were and what mattered to people in that town, then that's good community radio. And if it's 'washing it's face' because local businesses advertise then it is as near to 'the new local radio' as can be. Because most clients won't pump advertising money into a service in a recession unless they perceive it to be of benefit to their bottom line, because it is listened to and valued.

So enjoy the fact that some are professional, some are pants and relax in the knowledge that the current regulation means they are free to be as good or bad as they want depending on whether grants/ego/client rebooking drives the ongoing service.

[Gary Brenton]

Originally Posted by Kerijones

Interesting thread. In my view, CR is like ILR was in the 70s and 80s- each station has it's own sound and way of doing things- some are good, some are bad. But they are different and there can be an element of distinct local flavour, if there is a strong identity to reflect. Not every town really has that. The variety of service style could be viewed as part of it's benefit/charm and even a potential problem as achieving regional or national sales without any homogeneity and with no ratings will/has been quite a task. Whether CR can replace ILR, I'm not so sure. Maybe with increased convergence and 4G and in-car dash board web browsers a CR can compete. The fundamental issue currently is one of signal strength. A 25W-100 W limit, most CR will only give ILR a run for it's money in small towns where the signal doesn't degrade. It's just not going to make any impact in a patch where commuting is important.

There's been lots of talk of what is and what is not appropriate in terms of programming. The beauty of CR is that it really depends on your objectives AND/OR how you are funded.

I personally don't see any issue whatsoever with Amber Sound providing a rebroadcast of a networked chart show if they achieve their key performance indicators with the bulk of their programming.I've always taken the view that if the community is being served, as per licence terms, then it's better to have a listenable product for as many hours as is sustainable and syndication can help with that. Surely their volunteers will gain more from being involved with a consistent sounding service that is actually listened to, rather than a schedule entirely filled with cringeworthy 'vanity shows'?

There are some CR stations which I'd place into that category.

I don't think that networking would be a bad thing, if a sustain service was made available which could allow for localisation. That could allow time and cash poor stations to concentrate on their key hours and commitments whilst offering a consistent product in off-peak. But I suspect it'll never happen because there's no money without ratings in it or consistency within the sector. And that would be hard to drive forward a service that people agreed on from within a sector which contains, from my experience, quite a high degree of opinionated ex-professional radio know-alls (myself included)!

My view has always been that I would wish my service to remain the default listen in workplaces and homes from dawn 'til teatime because we rely on 50% of our income from commercial advertising and it HAS to be heard so clients' ads works. From listening to what I term the 'professional' CR stations like HFM and The Eye, they take the similar view.
If their objective is to provide airtime for local events, local news and information in a community that would be overlooked by regionalised, corporate ILR, then it is a case of 'job done'.

I think one of the big myths is that there will be hundreds of willing volunteers who wish to come forward and host shows.
This is not always the case, certainly after an initial spurge of interest has waned. I feel that, if you were blindfolded and driven to a mystery location and could, after an hour of daytime peaktime listening suss out where you were and what mattered to people in that town, then that's good community radio. And if it's 'washing it's face' because local businesses advertise then it is as near to 'the new local radio' as can be. Because most clients won't pump advertising money into a service in a recession unless they perceive it to be of benefit to their bottom line, because it is listened to and valued.

So enjoy the fact that some are professional, some are pants and relax in the knowledge that the current regulation means they are free to be as good or bad as they want depending on whether grants/ego/client rebooking drives the ongoing service.

Very well said... spot on!

Also every community station has to start from the bottom and of course some programming will be below par until the rough spots are ironed out.

With community radio it is trial and error.

[mikw]

Originally Posted by Kerijones

Interesting thread. In my view, CR is like ILR was in the 70s and 80s- each station has it's own sound and way of doing things- some are good, some are bad. But they are different and there can be an element of distinct local flavour, if there is a strong identity to reflect. Not every town really has that. The variety of service style could be viewed as part of it's benefit/charm and even a potential problem as achieving regional or national sales without any homogeneity and with no ratings will/has been quite a task. Whether CR can replace ILR, I'm not so sure. Maybe with increased convergence and 4G and in-car dash board web browsers a CR can compete. The fundamental issue currently is one of signal strength. A 25W-100 W limit, most CR will only give ILR a run for it's money in small towns where the signal doesn't degrade. It's just not going to make any impact in a patch where commuting is important.

There's been lots of talk of what is and what is not appropriate in terms of programming. The beauty of CR is that it really depends on your objectives AND/OR how you are funded.

I personally don't see any issue whatsoever with Amber Sound providing a rebroadcast of a networked chart show if they achieve their key performance indicators with the bulk of their programming.I've always taken the view that if the community is being served, as per licence terms, then it's better to have a listenable product for as many hours as is sustainable and syndication can help with that. Surely their volunteers will gain more from being involved with a consistent sounding service that is actually listened to, rather than a schedule entirely filled with cringeworthy 'vanity shows'?

There are some CR stations which I'd place into that category.

I don't think that networking would be a bad thing, if a sustain service was made available which could allow for localisation. That could allow time and cash poor stations to concentrate on their key hours and commitments whilst offering a consistent product in off-peak. But I suspect it'll never happen because there's no money without ratings in it or consistency within the sector. And that would be hard to drive forward a service that people agreed on from within a sector which contains, from my experience, quite a high degree of opinionated ex-professional radio know-alls (myself included)!

My view has always been that I would wish my service to remain the default listen in workplaces and homes from dawn 'til teatime because we rely on 50% of our income from commercial advertising and it HAS to be heard so clients' ads works. From listening to what I term the 'professional' CR stations like HFM and The Eye, they take the similar view.
If their objective is to provide airtime for local events, local news and information in a community that would be overlooked by regionalised, corporate ILR, then it is a case of 'job done'.

I think one of the big myths is that there will be hundreds of willing volunteers who wish to come forward and host shows.
This is not always the case, certainly after an initial spurge of interest has waned. I feel that, if you were blindfolded and driven to a mystery location and could, after an hour of daytime peaktime listening suss out where you were and what mattered to people in that town, then that's good community radio. And if it's 'washing it's face' because local businesses advertise then it is as near to 'the new local radio' as can be. Because most clients won't pump advertising money into a service in a recession unless they perceive it to be of benefit to their bottom line, because it is listened to and valued.

So enjoy the fact that some are professional, some are pants and relax in the knowledge that the current regulation means they are free to be as good or bad as they want depending on whether grants/ego/client rebooking drives the ongoing service.

A good post Keri, and pleasantly free of the usual sweeping generalisations that some radio professionals keep producing on these boards.

All they do is create arguments.

[Mapperley Ridge]

Originally Posted by mikw

A good post Keri, and pleasantly free of the usual sweeping generalisations that some radio professionals keep producing on these boards.

All they do is create arguments.

Actually, if you read back upthread you'll see I specifically said that not all stations fell into the categories I mentioned, and that there were some very good examples of CR out there.

This is a forum - it's all about debate.

[bluesdiamond]

Thinking of what I read about in places like Australia and the USA where a market has a lot of stations can we learn what community radio can be here?
If as it seems the BBC and others migrate to DAB, then why should we not have some networking or syndication as the Americans put it. Maybe if say in a market with 100,000 to 250,000 (Milton Keynes) we offer three low power licences are we wanting live 24hrs a day? What is wrong if a business in Cambridge or Oxford can make independent productions and sell the show across the country but not actually be a broadcaster?
What we don't want is a more Hearts where the local element has become an annoyance.
How far can a sponsor be involved,. could we have evenings sponsored by The OU, with a primarily speech station in Milton Keynes?

[Richard O'Hagan]

To those who think community radio can be filled with wall-to-wall worthy speech, have you a clue how long such material takes to generate?

How about a five minute feature about a local issue? It'd need, say, a couple of interviews and a voxpop. By the time the reporter's researched it, made appointments, been around to talk to people, got back, loaded it all to a pc and edited it (maybe also grabbed a sandwich, dealt with email and taken a wee) that's the best part of a day gone - for just a five minute piece. Somebody efficient might get it done in a couple of hours if he interviews by phone and rushes it, but it's still only a 5 minute piece, maybe 10 if it's loosely edited.

What are you actually going to fill the rest of the day with? A phone-in? You'd get almost no callers at all - perhaps one or two who'd call every day. Maybe a studio discussion about a hot local topic (e.g. dogs fouling the village green)? OK that's 20 minutes filled, what about the rest of the day's schedule?

Stop dreaming.

The best we should expect is one live show at prime time with a couple of worthy local features, plus a slightly dodgy news bulletin which repeats all day. There may be the odd local event at weekends (in the summer) but covering those is labour intensive and still isn't going to make a huge dent in the schedule, so the rest just has to be filled with music and VT. How exactly would you fill a full day's schedule - everyday including weekends - without music or canned shows?

C'mon, community radio has a fraction the resources of Heart/BBC, not a multiple of them. Be realistic.

[mikw]

Originally Posted by Mapperley Ridge

Actually, if you read back upthread you'll see I specifically said that not all stations fell into the categories I mentioned, and that there were some very good examples of CR out there.

This is a forum - it's all about debate.

There are some community radio stations that contain a depth of programming that you would never here on commercial radio.

Do you not agree?