When Series 4 first aired back in 2008 I was a bit meh about this episode, I really didn't like it and thought it was a bit rubbish, mainly cos I had no idea what was going on. I thought the Vashta Nerada were a bit silly, if effective, and didn't really get who River was (I dont simply mean I didn't know who she actually is (we didn't find that out until series 6), I didnt get what she was meant to be, what the concept behind her character was i.e. that she's a future companion). Now however, I LOVE IT!!!

Of course it's not simply a story that's grown on me, like others. Due to Steven Moffatt's excellent writing and the nature of the Doctor/River relationship, this story has become so much more powerful after series 5+6 and I really think that the character of River Song and her story arc is a work of genius. Here she is, with David Tennant's Doctor, yet everything that happened with Matt Smith is in the past. Her death's so tragic, the Doctor being unable to tell her. And as for how Moffatt's linked this to the rest of the series, just amazing. YOu have hers and the Doctors little catchphrases ("spoilers" "I hate you sometimes!"), you have the references to future adventures ("I've seen whole armies turn and run away," not sure if thats a reference to the Pandorica Opens and/or AGMGTW. And how brilliant was the crash of the Byzantium in the end? EPIC!) and you have stuff in later episodes e.g the Doctor echoes River's dying words when he dies in Wedding of River Song, and, far more effectively, when River talks about how she'll one day meet a Doctor who doesent know her in the Impossible Astronaut, which is just heartbreaking when we know this is the worst day of her life and that it really does kill her. It's just epic, but on a personal level, and somehow is more epic than thousands of Daleks and explosions.

This episode is deeply moving and so, so sad, especially when having seen later episodes with Matt Smith. It's almost as good even without this though, the realisation of the virtual world and the little girl/cal is so sad+genius from the Moff, while it now seems obvious woth her seeing what the camera sees at the beginning I'd never have guessed how the 21st century girl was linked to the Library with Doctor and Donna. I dont think I've mentioned Catherine Tate and really should. I always found Donna a bit annoying but she gives a brilliant performance here, her "marriage" and the loss of her family being just as heartbreaking as the Doctor/River relationship. Other standout performances are those by the actors playing Dr Moon, Miss Evangelista and especially the guy playing the Lux bloke whose a really great character and see's a lot of genuine character development. I dunno, there's something about him that steals the show, I cant think where I've seen him before. Is he in Psychoville?

But yeah, a real cracker of a story that is a great standalone of the Tennant era as well as serving as both a lead up and a conclusion to the characters, relationships & dynamics of the Smith era.

Sorry it's all a bit jumbled and that I've warbled a bit again, there was lots of stuff I wanted to get down, love the whole River Song arc/story

Loved this two-parter the ending with River Song knowing the Doctor's name is stunning and an unresolved mystery that even then was foreshadowing the events at Trenzalore...

I rewatched this story the other day for the same reason - that I hadn't been too impressed with it. Upon re-reviewing, it's fabulous, especially the River stuff.

Would argue about Lux, however; I found the character unsympathetic and felt Steve Pemberton didn't really fit the role

There is a lot about spoilers being mentioned whenever the Doctor asks River something. Are the spoilers what she has read in the diary or does she remember what has been in her past but seen in another future. An estuary of sorts, the Doctor's tide that goes in and goes out again while sitting on the dock of a bay.

So is what she whispers in his ear "Tessalecta" then?

So is what she whispers in his ear "Tessalecta" then?

Also it must be heartening for River that when she finally gets her own Sonic Screwdriver he gives her a highly modified version of an old model, not his shiny new version

I didn't like it on the first viewing but after a few rewatches I think it's quite good.

While he's not that sympathetic throughout most of it I think he is toward the end and, more importantly, I think I shines even when not sympathetic, he seems, I dunno, real, and I the actor is really good at his job

Watching back the continuity does not match with the events of S5 and S6.When he sees her for the second time in TTOA he is annoyed not happy. He should have been jumping for joy that she was still alive. He called her professor by mistake so he obviously remembered their first meeting.
It was a weird fate in the library. Rivers physical body did die was burnt up. Her mind her soul was "saved" stored in CAL and she was happy to spend eternity like that ?. Cut off from the man she loved the most. Also what will happen to Amy and Rorys souls after they die a true permenant death?.Her whole life r death and afterl;ife revolved around the doctor. If 11 had pullled Amy out of demons run before she gave birth her daughters life would haver been very different. No kidnap or being brainwashed into a psychopath. No having to change her name to hide her true identityPlus no wasting years of her life in prison waiting for "date nights" with her husband.Like River shame her love for the doctor ended up killing her. She was an "amazing" character. Least we get to see her one more time in 7.5.

bit of a shame that River says to the doctor that he is a much older Doctor when she first meets him., and of course Matt is in fact much younger. I guess we just have to let that one slide

Yet the Character isn't.

The Doctor River knows is (for at least some of their meetings) over 200 years older than the one she met in the Library.

Oh yeah., I never really looked at it that way.

She isn't "still alive". She's not dead yet.

We don't know how often the Doctor has seen River between The Library episodes and The Angel ones. presumably he has already taken her to The Singing Towers of Darillium.

I thought the Library 2-parter was an amazing episode - I only wish Moff's recent one's had been as good. It was obvious that River was a companion from the future - she even says she knows him from the future, so how could anyone not get that? It's even obvious they are "married", in a fashion.

I suppose the Doctor must have told River his name at some point as he knew she would need to know it for that moment when he needs to trust her, but it was a bit of a cheat that he didn''t in fact tell her at the "wedding".

Unless his name is "Look into my eye"? Maybe his mother gave him that name because his eye gives away his half-human ancestry?

There, I've answered the question. Will silence now fall?

I for one don't think he'll tell her his name until Trenzalore. As for the Singing Towers, we saw that happen at some point in the future in the mini-episode Last Night so it either hasn't happened yet or that's all we're getting...

...or it's already happened. Didn't River say that it was the last time she saw the Doctor before the library?

(I take no heed of the mini-thingy anyway. In my imagination it was the 10th Doctor who took River to Darillium, and that's how it's going to stay. )

You're probably right about the name thing. Maybe River asks the question and he tells her, causing all sorts of cosequences.

I'm not very keen on the later arc with River, but I do like this story. I suppose it would be more poignant to see it now after we got to know so much more about River (that woman had a pretty crap hand in life) but even without, it's a good story.

The young actress playing CAL is fantastic (New Who has found some really excellent child actors) and I think the Vashta Nerada are a good enemy. The skeletons in the spacesuits are a striking image, though one that perhaps owes a debt to Scooby Doo.

And of course the second part, Forest of the Dead, is in many ways Catherine Tate's episode and she is very good indeed in it.

Definitely some of the best episodes of Series 4!

Though, inevitably the Doctor/River relationship has more emotional resonance now. It really brings home the tragedy of their friendship: it's as if they're never closer when they're so far apart. For example, one sacrifices to save the other or being the "opposite ends of a pole" at Lake Silencio = kiss/kill compromise! Plus, she was saved by CAL's memory which is now reminiscent by Amy's memory being so central to her story.

I'm fascinated to see what happens with his name, the Moff's been laying the seeds for ages As for the Singing Towers thing, I hate to burst your bubble Granny but you see River entering the TARDIS saying the Doctor's taking her to Darillium and 11 comes in behind her and shoots a knowing look to his counterpart (there are 2 Doctors at this point (Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey). But ignore me, if you want it to be 10, it can be 10, I know he and River had some adventures together before his regeneration.

I have seen it, I just choose to ignore it!

If it's not on TV, it's not canon, imo

I tend to take the same approach tbh

I dont see why it would have been 10 who'd take River to Darillium, she said 11 was "her Doctor"