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Old 30-07-2012, 02:27
jjne
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OK, I'm not overly interested in the myriad supermarket labels here, just wanted filling in on a few of the former 'decent' brands... they can't all be Vestel

I've seen a few of these around.

1) Thomson -- now I'd been under the impression that the French had sold their TV wing to Videocon of India, and indeed I bought an inexpensive 'NordMende' Videocon set made in the old Thomson factory in Italy a number of years ago which is still running reliably.

But there are still a few Thomson TVs floating around -- so who is making them, and/or who owns the brand these days?

2) Sharp -- one of the world's largest panel manufacturers, only apparently used Vestel for the late CRTs, and I know they made "monitor-only" LCD sets quite recently which I always thought was a damned good idea, and also they've had the "fourth colour" sets which are unique. So who is making the ones that appear in the like of Richer Sounds now, and in general?

3) Toshiba -- am I right in thinking that the manufacturer is given away in the model number? I believe anything made by Vestel, for instance, is marked with a V, but the TL sets are Toshiba designed and built apparently.

4) (and yes I know these are a supermarket special) Cello -- I'm asking because I now own a couple of these sets, and they're assembled a few miles away from me in Bishop Auckland. As budget sets go, I'm inclined to "buy British", but who owns this small firm and where is the R&D?

5) Philips -- are they still making their own stuff (most likely badly)?
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Old 30-07-2012, 03:05
jjne
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Finally, is there really any evidence that all Vestel TVs are exactly the same? This would fly in the face of findings in other fields -- contract manufacturing is extremely common in the CE industry (Apple don't make a damned thing themselves for example).

I can well understand that a power supply would be standardised (as long as it provides the correct supplies there's no reason why it shouldn't be) and other components (such as the panel itself, and parts of the small signal board design) won't change much between the cheapest and most expensive, but does this really mean that they're "all the same"? I'm not so sure.

The like of Ritek and CMC produce 90% of all recordable media -- but the difference between a TDK disc and an E-Net special is obvious for all to see. Similarly, two or three Taiwanese manufacturers make most laptops, but no-one suggests that these are all the same quality. In the car industry you'll find the same engine in a Mercedes as in a Citroen.

Yet there seems to be an acceptance that in the TV world, contract manufacturing means that the more expensive Vestel-made products are no better than those marketed by the supermarkets.

It reminds me of a notorious scam perpetrated by a group of washing machine repair companies that I helped notice and make people aware of. For years Beko had been slammed as unreliable in the industry, and all the machines that were coming out of Beko (and Haier etc) were all rubbish regardless of price.

Then the same organisation put out their own series of machines, one was a rebadge of a high-end German manufacturer, the other, cheaper unit they didn't mention much about, only that it was "the most reliable in its price range". Except, as it turned out, this unit was, you guessed it, a Beko.

Cue lots of "ah but this is better" and "you don't know what you're talking about" from the trade, despite the fact that 90% of the parts were shared with Beko's base models.
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Old 30-07-2012, 09:22
Nigel Goodwin
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OK, I'm not overly interested in the myriad supermarket labels here, just wanted filling in on a few of the former 'decent' brands... they can't all be Vestel

I've seen a few of these around.

1) Thomson -- now I'd been under the impression that the French had sold their TV wing to Videocon of India, and indeed I bought an inexpensive 'NordMende' Videocon set made in the old Thomson factory in Italy a number of years ago which is still running reliably.

But there are still a few Thomson TVs floating around -- so who is making them, and/or who owns the brand these days?
As far as I'm aware Thomson is just another badge these days, but their own sets weren't much good anyway. You were lucky yours lasted so well

But Thomson was never considered a 'decent brand'


2) Sharp -- one of the world's largest panel manufacturers, only apparently used Vestel for the late CRTs, and I know they made "monitor-only" LCD sets quite recently which I always thought was a damned good idea, and also they've had the "fourth colour" sets which are unique. So who is making the ones that appear in the like of Richer Sounds now, and in general?
All the low cost Sharp LCD sets are made by Vestel (easily confirmed with Sharp sets as the service manuals tell you it's Vestel), as far as I know the higher end ones are made by Sharp.

To be honest, the later Vestel CRT models were BETTER than the later Sharp CRT sets, as Sharp went sharply down hill in the later CRT years.


3) Toshiba -- am I right in thinking that the manufacturer is given away in the model number? I believe anything made by Vestel, for instance, is marked with a V, but the TL sets are Toshiba designed and built apparently.
Again, as far as I know the cheaper sets are Vestel, certainly the 19DL833/22DL833 is a Vestel - supposedly the higher end sets are Toshiba, but the only ones I've had occasion to repair have all been Vestel.


4) (and yes I know these are a supermarket special) Cello -- I'm asking because I now own a couple of these sets, and they're assembled a few miles away from me in Bishop Auckland. As budget sets go, I'm inclined to "buy British", but who owns this small firm and where is the R&D?
Except you're not "buying British", I'm currently in the process of repairing one - it's the cheapest, nastiest, most poorly designed Chinese set I've seen - a good few steps down from a Vestel

I don't know what the requirements are to claim "made in Britain", but if it involves more than a screwdriver and parcel tape I'd be surprised

On the plus side - all that's wrong on the faulty set here is the on/off switch, which I'm struggling sourcing (still waiting a reply from Cello).


5) Philips -- are they still making their own stuff (most likely badly)?
No idea, I presume they are still making their own, using their own Philips/LG panels.

It's certainly VERY, VERY difficult for the public to know what they are buying.
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Old 30-07-2012, 09:26
Nigel Goodwin
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Finally, is there really any evidence that all Vestel TVs are exactly the same? This would fly in the face of findings in other fields -- contract manufacturing is extremely common in the CE industry (Apple don't make a damned thing themselves for example).

I can well understand that a power supply would be standardised (as long as it provides the correct supplies there's no reason why it shouldn't be) and other components (such as the panel itself, and parts of the small signal board design) won't change much between the cheapest and most expensive, but does this really mean that they're "all the same"? I'm not so sure.
Vestel certainly offer different 'grades' of sets to their customers - but I suspect the diference is more to do with the enhanced facilities than better quality.

As a Euronics agent we've sold both Wharfdale and Finlux Vestel sets - both were equally bad, and don't seem any different to Bush, Hitachi, Sharp etc.
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Old 30-07-2012, 19:50
1andrew1
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OK, I'm not overly interested in the myriad supermarket labels here, just wanted filling in on a few of the former 'decent' brands... they can't all be Vestel

I've seen a few of these around.

1) Thomson -- now I'd been under the impression that the French had sold their TV wing to Videocon of India, and indeed I bought an inexpensive 'NordMende' Videocon set made in the old Thomson factory in Italy a number of years ago which is still running reliably.

But there are still a few Thomson TVs floating around -- so who is making them, and/or who owns the brand these days?
The Thomson company has rebranded itself as Technicolor. It exited the TV market several years ago licensing its various brands (Telefunken, Nordmende, Thomson, Ferguson, RCA, GE) to a number of companies.

The main divestment of its European TV assets was via a joint venture with TCL of China in 2003 which became the largest TV manufacturer in the world. However, in 2006 this company closed down most of its European operations, was absorbed by TCL and lost the use of the Thomson brand name. It refocused on producing TV sets to be sold by retailers with none of the cost of support and distribution that the Thomson brand required. See http://www.economist.com/node/8119231

The Thomson brand has since resurfaced in Europe on PVRs made by Strong. http://www.thomsonstb.net

TCL itself is set to make an impact as the manufacturer of Ikea's integrated TV and furniture range. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83G04R20120417

4) (and yes I know these are a supermarket special) Cello -- I'm asking because I now own a couple of these sets, and they're assembled a few miles away from me in Bishop Auckland. As budget sets go, I'm inclined to "buy British", but who owns this small firm and where is the R&D?
This company is owned by a couple (Brian and Valerie Palmer) and its R&D is in the UK. It is expanding and could well be making Freesat TVs in small screen sizes soon. http://www.celloelectronics.com/news...eates_100_jobs

5) Philips -- are they still making their own stuff (most likely badly)?
USA & Canada: The brand is licensed for TVs to the Japanese company Funai http://www.funai.us/topics/2008/080409.html
Europe: Philips TVs for Europe are now made by a joint venture company - TP Vision - 30% owned by Philips and 70% owned by Chinese company TPV Technology.
http://www.tpvision.co.uk/about-us/this-is-us
China The brand is licensed to TPV Technology.
India The brand is licensed to Videocon. http://articles.economictimes.indiat...-premium-brand
PVRs These are made by Pace who bought Philips' PVR division. http://www.connectedworld.tv/article...business/4932/
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Old 30-07-2012, 20:23
1andrew1
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Finally, is there really any evidence that all Vestel TVs are exactly the same? This would fly in the face of findings in other fields -- contract manufacturing is extremely common in the CE industry (Apple don't make a damned thing themselves for example).

Yet there seems to be an acceptance that in the TV world, contract manufacturing means that the more expensive Vestel-made products are no better than those marketed by the supermarkets.
I think there's a difference between contract manufacturing where companies like Apple and Sony do the design and engineering leaving the assembly to firms like Foxconn v Vestel designing and manufacturing TV sets which retailers like Argos can choose to sell under their own brand names.

That being said, from what I've seen, the Japanese-branded Vestel models seem to have better remote controls (which they might even design themselves) and I'm sure that Vestel probably manufacture to several price points so there could well be a small degree of difference between brands.
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Old 30-07-2012, 22:44
AlanO
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The thing is this 'badge engineering' has been going on for many years - it's not a recent phenomenon.

Go back to the 1980s and take a look at the VCRs you bought -

if you bought an ITT or Ferguson VCR, chances are it was a re-badged JVC model.

Sony bought their VHS VCRs from various sources including (but not confined to) Grundig and Samsung.

More recently even Sony bought in a range of LCD TVs from Beko - yet your average punter would be none the wiser that the set wasn't a Sony designed and built set.

Vestel gear gets a bad press on these boards, yet this usually ignores the massive volumes of kit of their manufacture that gets sold. From personal experience we've got a bedroom TV / DVD with a Bush badge on, bought as a refurb about 5 years ago which has been absolutely fine. Also got a Vestel PVR (T810) now doing service in the kids playroom - we've got a 'Toshiba' badged (Tvonics) box in the lounge and to be honest, the Vestel has been more stable and is still the easier box to use.

The fact is Vestel kit is usually sold at a budget price and offers reasonable performance and quality for the price.

And Vestel are not the only provider in this space - Beko, Orion and Funai are all in the market now.

Just to prove the point:

"In 2011, Orion purchased the JVC trademark for branding, since JVC has decided to exit the electronics business, and all JVC televisions are now designed, produced, and supported by Orion from now on."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Electric
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Old 30-07-2012, 23:39
Dansky+HD
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How about we stop buying the crap they try flogging us for half the price and stick to the main top brands & we stop buying our tv's from the same place we buy toilet roll and cat litter.

Trying not to be to snobbish about it as I've made the same mistake myself.

Regards,

Dan.
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Old 31-07-2012, 01:46
1andrew1
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"In 2011, Orion purchased the JVC trademark for branding, since JVC has decided to exit the electronics business, and all JVC televisions are now designed, produced, and supported by Orion from now on."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Electric
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. On a matter of minor detail, I'm not sure Orion did ever buy or licence the JVC brand and there is no source in Wiki to cross-reference.
The JVC brand is is still used by JVC Kenwood for a lot of electrical goods including televisions in some territories eg USA. In the UK Comet licence the JVC brand for televisions, which they source from Vestel. Back In 2008, JVC agreed a TV alliance with Funai allowing it to close its Scottish factory and source televisions from Poland.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/...T9107020080130
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...6908-20395083/
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Old 23-09-2013, 22:24
AnywhereButHome
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I found this thread because I suspected my Sharp TV is a rebranded Vestel and did a bit of Googling.

I have had plenty Vestel stuff in the past and it's been generally OK, Freeview boxes and TVs, but this one is total shite.

Doesn't switch on half the time, the remote totally died in a couple of weeks of purchase, and it wouldn't tune in my old computer on analogue channel 36. Just done a first time installation is bam it works straight away I bought it because it was (so I thought) Sharp too...

To be honest I wish it would just die then I can justify buying a new one. Hopefully the cat will knock it over one day or something.
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Old 24-09-2013, 08:34
Stig
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You get what you pay for.

During the digital switchover I know lots of people who bought nasty cheap TVs: Bush, Goodmans etc. The people who stuck to brands such as Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic would have paid a lot more, but they have TVs of decent quality and don't break down after a year.
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Old 24-09-2013, 17:22
captainkremmen
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I've had a Vestel made Hitachi branded PVR in the past. To be honest it was fine, if a little idiosyncratic at times. The only real problem was that it would lock up a few times a year, and would massively slow down if you had a lot of timers set. OK for the money I guess, and having then used a Philips/Pace HD PVR later the Vestel was by far the more reliable. The Philips was absolutely God awful, slow to change channel, would lock up at least once a week, the remote was often unresponsive and in the end it went back and was replaced with what was really something of an unknown brand in the UK, a Korean made Digitalstream HD PVR which has been excellent.

The big Korean companies seem to start along the lines of the likes of Vestel, at the bottom end of the market and selling their products to other manufacturers under brand names. Later they then start to move upmarket, with better products under their own names and become more respected, and as we have seen from the likes of Samsung, LG, Humax, Kia/Hyundia this usually proves to bee a very successful change.

Many Chinese manufacturers are starting to do the same.

However it seems some of the European or in the case of Vestel, the Turkish companies aren't capable of doing the same so stick to the budget, lower quality end of the market. I guess it works for them though in terms of making money.
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Old 25-09-2013, 14:26
iangrad
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Just out if interest the Philips brand is now used by TP vision -- a very will regarded company from China who started out specializing in pc monitors .

http://www.tpvision.com/
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Old 29-09-2013, 15:20
1andrew1
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Just out if interest the Philips brand is now used by TP vision -- a very will regarded company from China who started out specializing in pc monitors .

http://www.tpvision.com/
Per post #5

USA & Canada: The brand is licensed for TVs to the Japanese company Funai http://www.funai.us/topics/2008/080409.html
Europe: Philips TVs for Europe are now made by a joint venture company - TP Vision - 30% owned by Philips and 70% owned by Chinese company TPV Technology.
http://www.tpvision.co.uk/about-us/this-is-us
China The brand is licensed to TPV Technology.
India The brand is licensed to Videocon. http://articles.economictimes.indiat...-premium-brand
PVRs These are made by Pace who bought Philips' PVR division. http://www.connectedworld.tv/article...business/4932/
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Old 30-09-2013, 12:35
jjne
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Also Sony are subcontracting manufacture of their TVs to the Taiwanese OEM Foxconn. I'm not sure how far this stretches to design, however.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:43
trayhop123
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well because its such a minefield , with limited information , and most badges no indicator of quality , then surely when choosing any new tv , more thought should be given from your budget towards the extended warranty first ,,,,,,, brand 2nd.
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Old 01-10-2013, 13:23
Nigel Goodwin
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well because its such a minefield , with limited information , and most badges no indicator of quality , then surely when choosing any new tv , more thought should be given from your budget towards the extended warranty first ,,,,,,, brand 2nd.
Or do your research?, or ask? - the two top brands are still Sony and Panasonic, and for good reason.
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Old 01-10-2013, 13:40
trayhop123
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i completely agree nigel , research is good ,,,,,,,,, but even with sony (who i adore ) , things can and do go wrong , and the flipside is we have all heard the tales of your aunts 20p alba that has somehow lasted a gazillion years.

my point is , i think if backed into a corner with a budget , that i would sooner compromise slightly on brand for that of a longer warranty . ,,,,

im sure it's been said on here a thousand time's before but it's hard to beat richers 10% policy .

and dont give me any ''john lewis standard 5 year on all tv's'' waffle lol ,,,,,,,, the prices in store are shocking , you certainly pay for the guarantee on top anyhow
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Old 01-10-2013, 13:44
Nigel Goodwin
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i completely agree nigel , research is good ,,,,,,,,, but even with sony (who i adore ) , things can and do go wrong
They do, but far less than cheaper makes, and Sony have the backup and support that cheaper makes don't if it should be required (as do Panasonic).


im sure it's been said on here a thousand time's before but it's hard to beat richers 10% policy .
It's not considered so in the trade, 10% for a 5 year warranty isn't sustainable - and there's a LOT of complaints about problems with the warranties. However, if you're happy to take your chances, the price is exceptionally good.
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Old 01-10-2013, 13:57
trayhop123
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please elaborate nigel ,,,,,,, i dont understand '' isn't sustainable'' ,,,, to who ? ,,,, to richers ? well they have been running it long enough .



and ok , i'll have to give you kudo's over the quality of some warranties , ,,,,,,, some arn't worth the paper their printed on when you read the fine print i suppose .

is richers notoriously bad then ? what doesn't it do etc ?
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Old 01-10-2013, 15:29
Nigel Goodwin
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please elaborate nigel ,,,,,,, i dont understand '' isn't sustainable'' ,,,, to who ? ,,,, to richers ? well they have been running it long enough .
Presumably it's a pyramid scheme?, self funding as long as it keeps expanding? - at 10% all they need is one call out to a set and they are already losing money on the deal.

Considering legislation was supposed to ensure that all extended warranty schemes were insurance backed (following numerous collapses), and RS aren't, it makes you wonder how they are exempt from it?.


and ok , i'll have to give you kudo's over the quality of some warranties , ,,,,,,, some arn't worth the paper their printed on when you read the fine print i suppose .

is richers notoriously bad then ? what doesn't it do etc ?
Sorry, I can't comment further - you simply get attacked by the pro-RS zealots in here, who are sure RS can do no wrong

But as I said before, you can't grumble about the price, so it's well worth the risk.
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Old 01-10-2013, 15:50
daver34
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Why do people buy extended warranties, when you have the sales of goods act.
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Old 01-10-2013, 16:18
trayhop123
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erm ,,, not sure on this , but i'll risk the qi buzzer

erm is the sale of goods act essentially your statutory 1 yr guarantee rights,,,, and that's why people opt for more ???

gonna take someone far more knowledgeable than me to answer this one
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Old 01-10-2013, 16:34
daver34
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erm ,,, not sure on this , but i'll risk the qi buzzer

erm is the sale of goods act essentially your statutory 1 yr guarantee rights,,,, and that's why people opt for more ???

gonna take someone far more knowledgeable than me to answer this one
Sales of goods act covers 5 years from date product purchased. Exception is wear & tear, which is unlikely on tv`s.
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Old 01-10-2013, 16:40
chrisjr
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Sales of goods act covers 5 years from date product purchased. Exception is wear & tear, which is unlikely on tv`s.
Are you in Scotland by any chance. SOGA is 5 years in Scotland and 6 years in the rest of the UK.
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