[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by Pete Grain

However, it is most certainly ignorant to criticise another's beliefs simply because they don't happen to coincide with my own.

No, the massive point that you are missing and the whole thing behind it is that religion doesn't happen to coincide with reality and fact.

It is weak comments such as your that allow religious nonsense to carry on unchecked and interfering and controlling others.

How can the religious be offended over something that is not reality and only in their heads? If it is anything other than just in their heads then they need to prove that or they have no case.

Religion it taking the non-religious for idiots and some non-religious are acting like idiots by listening to them.

[Hogzilla]

He has a degree in English; he is trained to rip texts apart. He is perfectly qualified to say if a text is 'hogwash' and he'd look pretty undereducated if he thought otherwise. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[Welsh-lad]

My vicar (when I lived in Cambridge) once said that Genesis is great for Sunday School, but that no seriously sensible person could believe it to be true..... so if vicars say that.... well.

[Neda_Turk]

Originally Posted by BillyBatty

Fair enough, you wouldn't get away with calling the kuran hogwash.

The Kuran is hogwash and a complete joke.

Waiting! Oh look! Their God did nothing to me and so it would only be real people faining offence who would attack me as sure as hell their invented God won't.

[Mr.Humphries]

Jeremy is feeling the full force of the new 'caring' Britain. Still people do nothing. We get what we deserve.

[dawnrayd]

Originally Posted by Hogzilla

He has a degree in English; he is trained to rip texts apart. He is perfectly qualified to say if a text is 'hogwash' and he'd look pretty undereducated if he thought otherwise. I don't see what the fuss is about.

To be fair, you don't need a degree in English to pick up on the fact it's hogwash. Any child who is past the 'believing in Santa' phase would come to the same conclusion.

[CatWolf]

Originally Posted by alancracker

I am a Christian and in the church where i go they are having a series of sermons on Genesis. Sometimes (say twice a year) I preach said sermon which I did a couple of Sundays ago - on Genesis 20.

Now i will admit that i have doubts as to whether the Genesis narratives are meant to be literally true - they maybe aren't, it does not matter to me much as tbh I'll never know or be able to prove it either way altho I am sure there is some truth in them - like there was someone called Abraham or Moses some time ago ...etc.

But even if they are not literally true we can still learn from them regarding how to live our lives today and that is how i approached preparing a sermon on Genesis 20.

If anyone is interested the main points I gleaned from the passage were
1) Even though Abraham is regarded as a spiritual 'giant' he still messed up - and so do not be surprised if sometimes humans who you look up to let you down by behaving poorly.
2) Abraham was going into what he feared was a hard situation and to help him through it he used his own ideas instead of trusting God - we too as Christians in 2012 should trust God when we are in hard situations.
3) It is never right to twist the truth to try to manipulate events for your own advantage as Abraham did in this passage.
4) In the end he and Abimelech were reconciled and when you are in a dispute that is always something to aim for.
5) It says that God performed a miracle at the end of the chapter and prior to that it says there was prayer - so prayer is important for Christians - and still is today.

So even though I may have doubts about the literal truth of Genesis it still imo has things to teach us about how we should live today - and is most certainly not 'hogwash'!!

But of course I respect peoples right to not believe, that has to be their choice but i do like people who do not believe to at least give those of us like myself who do believe some respect in the way they speak to us and about us.

"Now i will admit that i have doubts as to whether the Genesis narratives are meant to be literally true"

Are you serious? - what part of that 5000 year old bog standard fable do you think is based on any sort of reality? - the talking snake, adam and eve? - the eternal punishment for eating an apple?

"But even if they are not literally true we can still learn from them regarding how to live our lives today"

There are far better books that give much better advice in clearer form than the Bible. Any self help book would do or just use some common sense. The OT is dense, confusing, open to any interpretation or agenda, full of violence and death, difficult to read, mostly made up, written for middle eastern illiterate people. Why would you wish to stand up in front of adults and children to "preach" from that when there are thousands of better, clearer, more truthful and relevant books available?

[Hogzilla]

Originally Posted by dawnrayd

To be fair, you don't need a degree in English to pick up on the fact it's hogwash. Any child who is past the 'believing in Santa' phase would come to the same conclusion.

No, you are absolutely right, of course.

What I was saying was, Paxman is perfectly qualified to comment on the veracity/reliability of a piece of text - that doesn't imply that people who have not got a degree in English have invalid opinions. Just saying his opinions are perfectly valid as he is qualified to make them.

[MidnightFalcon]

Originally Posted by batgirl

So it's not offensive but... inappropriate when said by a particular person in a particular situation perhaps?

Exactly so. I can see how some of his viewers could take offence at being called idiots on air - I wouldn't particularly like it - would you? He's given religious groups grounds to claim that they won't get a fair hearing on his show. The BBC is supposed to be non-partisan - If their top interviewer can't manage that then what does that say about the organisation?

The BBC had no option BUT to apologise.

[Erica Cartman]

Truth hurts.

[tenofspades]

I'm not religious but it is offensive. It's disrespectful to the viewers of his programme who might be religious.

Not that I have time for religion but surely in a way viewers are like customers to a shop. If a person is running a postoffice they don't offend someone's religion who comes in as they want the custom.

[dawnrayd]

Originally Posted by tenofspades

I'm not religious but it is offensive. It's disrespectful to the viewers of his programme who might be religious.

Not that I have time for religion but surely in a way viewers are like customers to a shop. If a person is running a postoffice they don't offend someone's religion who comes in as they want the custom.

I think it's offensive and an insult to human intelligence and the progress we've made as a species to suggest it's anything other than hogwash. I see the point you're making though.

[CatWolf]

One message of the Christian religion is that of homophobia, must we respect that as well?

[Hogzilla]

I'd be far more offended if he came out and said it was gospel.

Ah, wait...

[lordOfTime]

Originally Posted by CatWolf

Even religious people think its hogwash so it must be

I don't think Genesis is literally true. But I certainly don't think it's hogwash.

[ladymoanalot]

Originally Posted by batgirl

If anyone does think Paxman was being offensive is it because they think it's not hogwash? Or that it is but people shouldn't say so?

I think for me it is a little like the Top Gear issues. I have no issue with him thinking it is, in fact I do not believe in it myself but I think it was a silly thing to say on the BBC and a silly thing for a person to complain about. The whole thing is silly and could have been easily avoidable

[lordo350]

You have two sets of people. The religious fanatics (and this is some, not all. Most religious people just want to get on with their beliefs and lives in peace) who cannot comprehend people not believing in what they do, and the strict athiests like Dawkins and Paxman who cannot comprehend people still believing in what they consider to be fairy stories in 2012.
IMO, they go about it the wrong way.
Yep, I cannot comprehend how people can believe in God. The Bible is a contradictory mess. I've said it. I'm entitled to my own opinion, just as you are entitled to turn around and say I'm an idiot. The fact is, we are entitled to our own opinion. This is not the middle ages.
As time moves on, I do think people will become less reliant on religions. Religion of some sort will always exist. Even if the world is destroyed. If all humans die out apart from a small few, there will still be people out there praising God. But look at modern times. A hell of alot less people live their lives around doctrines set down 2000 years ago, and this trend will no doubt continue. The modern mind just finds it very difficult to believe in a magic man in the sky, and the fundamental reason for religion (for law and order) is no longer necessary.
So Paxman can say what he wants. Hell, I know a few religious people who take the New Testament as gospel, but admit the Old one is probably mostly fiction.

[Chester666666]

Originally Posted by CatWolf

One message of the Christian religion is that of homophobia, must we respect that as well?

exactly
too many will go on about love etc and then spout the most venomous homophobic bile

[TheSilentFez]

In my opinion, religion is worthy of very very little respect at all and if there is one thing I would rid the world of, if I could, it would be the ignorance and brainwashing of religion.
Nevertheless, I do not believe that one should actively seek to offend religious beliefs, but if they decide to ram it down my throat then they can expect to be a little bit offended.

However, I am a passionate believer in helping people lose their religious beliefs, not with anger or with insults, but by encouraging them to reason and think rationally. There are some who are so brainwashed by the dogma of religion that they are no longer capable of rational thought, but equally there are those who have doubts themselves and who are in need of a little help for them to finally see reason.

[dao]

Paxman can say what he wants, but only outside the studio. Once he's working inside the studio as a news presenter that are certain responsibilities that he must abide by. One of those is to show due impartiality. I haven't seen this interview to know exactly how these statments were made and what the context was. Maybe he was just relaying Dawkin's opinions back to him, or the opinions of others, I don't know. But as a rule it is not the place of a news presenter to be giving their own personal opinions to the audience and making emphatic and controversial statments.

If we go down that route than our news will be like in the US and we'll have Glenn Beck and other "shock-jocks" with their own news programmes.

[TheSilentFez]

Originally Posted by dao

Paxman can say what he wants, but only outside the studio. Once he's working inside the studio as a news presenter that are certain responsibilities that he must abide by. One of those is to show due impartiality. I haven't seen this interview to know exactly how these statments were made and what the context was. Maybe he was just relaying Dawkin's opinions back to him, or the opinions of others, I don't know. But as a rule it is not the place of a news presenter to be giving their own personal opinions to the audience and making emphatic and controversial statments.

If we go down that route than our news will be like in the US and we'll have Glenn Beck and other "shock-jocks" with their own news programmes.

Technically the book of Genesis is "hogwash". That's a fact, not an opinion.
But yes, there are some people who believe the hogwash who will go out of their way to be offended if someone points out the truth to them.

From now on, I am going to take personal offence if anyone says that the Aeneid isn't true!

[dorydaryl]

Originally Posted by johnnybgoode83

Richard Dawkins? The same chap who called people stupid on a recent Radio Ulster interview?

By all means question people's beliefs but don't disrespect them by calling them stupid. We are all entitled to our beliefs whether they are right or wrong.

Agree.
It's possible to disagree with a set of beliefs without referring to their proponents as 'stupid'. It's arrogant. If your argument is good enough and you're confident in what you do know or believe it doesn't really need the backup of insults to towards those who believe differently.

Having said that, I went to a strict Catholic School and it was made very clear to us that the OT, from Genesis onwards, is largely allegorical.

[Neda_Turk]

Let's face it, all it really is is religion trying to suppress all question and control others, They have done it for millennia and think that they can just carry doing that nonsense in this day and age, They can't!

They want to suppress anyone questioning their nonsense as it simply doesn't stand up to any questioning and they know that.

Your religion doesn't work today and you are having a problem with that? Well if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out!

But do stop telling level headed people what they can and can't do as no one is interested in your unsupported claptrap any more.

[trevgo]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

Let's face it, all it really is is religion trying to suppress all question and control others, They have done it for millennia and think that they can just carry doing that nonsense in this day and age, They can't!

They want to suppress anyone questioning their nonsense as it simply doesn't stand up to any questioning and they know that.

Your religion doesn't work today and you are having a problem with that? Well if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out!

But do stop telling level headed people what they can and can't do as no one is interested in your unsupported claptrap any more.

Halelujah and praise de non existent lord!!

Nobody has a right not to be offended - not I, nor anyone.

We have to put up with so much cr@p from religion - right down to their brainwashing impressionable little kiddies in their schools. Not to mention the millions slaughtered across the globe over the past millennia in the name of one god or another.

Paxo calling Genesis "hogwash" is a trifle.

[spubbbba]

Well seeing as how the bible contains some deeply offensive views and horrendously violent imagery can I complain about religious programmes before the watershed?

Anyone who believes the story of Genesis is literally true, is stupid as the entire story is obviously utter nonsense.

I’m getting kind of tired of thin skinned religious nutters whining when those who don’t believe their bronze age myths start want to take away the many privileges they have. Not to mention much of those privileges only came about through violence and intimidation.

I don’t get why we have to tiptoe round daft ideas depending on the number of people who hold them. Why is it fine to laugh at 1 person who believes the royal family are space lizards but not thousands who believes the earth is only 6000 years old. Both are equally stupid.