[Richardcoulter]

In the last of the series called Turn Back Time- The Family, it was about the 1970's.

There was a retro colour television shown at various points showing, amongst other things, It's A Knockout and Miss World.

The second set shown had push buttons AND what looks like a turning switch used by 405 line sets. Were colour dual standard sets ever manufactured?

I wouldn't have thought that there would be much point, but people on here say that some people preferred 405 line pictures and that the signals travelled much further.

[Spot]

I'm pretty sure that all the original colour sets in 1967 will have been dual standard, as only BBC2 was transmitted on UHF at that time.

[Bandspread199]

Correct Spot! I remember our local showing High Chaparral etc in colour but switching to BBC on 405 for the Lex MacLean show. I also recall retuning a pub set when STV got colour so the punters could watch the racing, rather than on VFH Monochrome!

[cyril-furr]

Yes, there were many 625/405 line TVs both colour & B&W from about 1965 - the late 1970s.

By modern standards, they were diabolical designs - some prone to catching fire, the PYE hybrid was a prime example of this - hybrid in the sense it used both valves & transisters or chips.
The first 625 only colour sets were a great improvement, by then, transisters & chips dominated & valves had been designed out.

By comparison, modern LCD TVs have a far better picture quality & reliability .....pity about the inferior programmes though.

& Richard, the BBC 405 B&W signals were transmitted on band 1 VHF a lower frequency that went further, band 2 was & is used by FM radio, ITV 405 was also on VHF but band 3 (now used by DAB signals)
625 line was always only on UHF BBC2 in 1964 first, then BBC1 & ITV - much the same UHF channels that are now used by Digital multiplexes.
Lots of technical changes over many years.

[Richardcoulter]

Thanks everybody for your replies.

I knew that dual standard monochrome sets existed, so that people could get BBC2.

By the time that BBC2 went colour in the late 60's though, I thought that BBC1 and ITV would have been available on UHF, meaning there was no need for dual standard colour TV's

[Bandspread199]

Originally Posted by Richardcoulter

Thanks everybody for your replies.

I knew that dual standard monochrome sets existed, so that people could get BBC2.

By the time that BBC2 went colour in the late 60's though, I thought that BBC1 and ITV would have been available on UHF, meaning there was no need for dual standard colour TV's

The Government of the day allowed the formation of BBC 2 on UHF, and then for colour. There was to be a lengthy period before BBC1 and ITV got colour. But ITV was unhappy about this and tried experimental colour transmissions in band 3. They were threatening a dual stan dard colour service. Watch the movie "Quatermass and the Pit" and you'll see a tv in a pub showing ABC news (London's weekend ITV) in colour!! Because of this, the Gov backed down and approved colour for the three channels.

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by cyril-furr

& Richard, the BBC 405 B&W signals were transmitted on band 1 VHF a lower frequency that went further, band 2 was & is used by FM radio, ITV 405 was also on VHF but band 3 (now used by DAB signals)

BBC had quite a number of transmitters on Band III, BBC Winter Hill was Band III.

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by Richardcoulter

In the last of the series called Turn Back Time- The Family, it was about the 1970's.

There was a retro colour television shown at various points showing, amongst other things, It's A Knockout and Miss World.

The second set shown had push buttons AND what looks like a turning switch used by 405 line sets. Were colour dual standard sets ever manufactured?

I wouldn't have thought that there would be much point, but people on here say that some people preferred 405 line pictures and that the signals travelled much further.

Those two weren't though. I believe the one in the house (with the mysterious 1970 VHS recorder) is a Decca Bradford chassis, the one showing Miss Word in the pub, a Decca 70 chassis, neither of which were dual standard.

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by lundavra

BBC had quite a number of transmitters on Band III, BBC Winter Hill was Band III.

As was BBC1 405 from Belmont.

[Neda_Turk]

We had a black and white one. Only problem was that no TV engineer could get the UHF setting working and so we went without BBC2 for some time until we changed TV sets.

We didn't get a colour set until mid 70s as we were poor.

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by cyril-furr

By comparison, modern LCD TVs have a far better picture quality & reliability .....pity about the inferior programmes though.

Those of us who have observed LCD sets would take issue with that. I'm doubtful as to whether many last more than 5 years nowadays. Reliability over time is a complete misnomer, there will always be crap, unreliable sets in any era outnumbering the number of decent, reliable ones by 5 to 1

My Sony 9-90, dual standard 405/625, is still working, as are thousands of others from Sony. I think a few British manufacturers of d/s sets went this way by simply using a spring-loaded button switch, but many used over-complex mechanical designs (which could have been achieved by a simple button or switch), some, IIRC, to physically move the IF strip and a few others!

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

We had a black and white one. Only problem was that no TV engineer could get the UHF setting working and so we went without BBC2 for some time until we changed TV sets.

We didn't get a colour set until mid 70s as we were poor.

Sounds like a set that had a kit to adapt it for BBC2 (many of these sets in the early 60s that had 625 stages but no UHF tuner, or UHF tuner but no 625 IF strip when sold etc)

[peter05]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

We had a black and white one. Only problem was that no TV engineer could get the UHF setting working and so we went without BBC2 for some time until we changed TV sets.

We didn't get a colour set until mid 70s as we were poor.

1968 for me, watched it a couble of times, Then never really watched Tv again for 8 years, Had to go out every night looking for life, dunno if I ever found it

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by Neda_Turk

We didn't get a colour set until mid 70s as we were poor.

Many people didn't - some still don't have colour sets. IIRC, my grandparents didn't get a colour set until 1978/79 (ex-rental Decca Bradford that had it's timebase constant changed to take account of their rented Sony C7 Betamax player around the same time)

[Dan's Dad]

Originally Posted by Bandspread199

The Government of the day allowed the formation of BBC 2 on UHF, and then for colour. There was to be a lengthy period before BBC1 and ITV got colour. But ITV was unhappy about this and tried experimental colour transmissions in band 3.

The Government set up a committee under Sir Harry Pilkington to look into the future of broadcasting in 1961.
It reported in the summer of 1962, recommending

migration to 625 transmission on UHF
that there should be 4 national services
- the existing BBC Television Service
- the existing ITA contracted regional service
- a third service provided by the BBC (BBC-2 which opened 2 years later)
- 4th service, to remain unallocated in the short term.
that the BBC should start experimental colour transmissions on 625.

Pilkington was less than enthusiastic about the programming provided by the ITA's contractors, and dangled the carrot of the 4th channel if they 'pulled their socks up'.

Some ITV contracting companies didn't much like this and tried to go it alone with 405 colour.

It was never envisaged that the migration to 625 would be rapid, and hence years of dual 405/625 working, together with a mix of b&w/colour transmissions.

These were the days when the hours of transmission where limited by statute, and spending on national projects such as this expansion controlled by government.

I was first offered a job by the BBC in the autumn of 1966, partly associated with continuing expansion as a consequence of Pilkington,
that date was delayed until the next spring as a direct result of Government intervention on BBC spending.
I went to University instead and took up a full time position three years deferred, just before the start of BBC-1 and ITV colour, a time when a lot of BBC staff were being poached!

One vacation job I had was for a cable distribution company, modifying their rental 'receivers' for 625 working!

[Dan's Dad]

Originally Posted by Richardcoulter

Were colour dual standard sets ever manufactured?

The BBC/BREMA Colour Television Receiver Film was essentially about the alignment of dual standard colour TVs.

I transmitted it so many times, I became word perfect!

[MeicY]

Our family had a Grundig in the 80s/90s which was similar to a SuperColor but not that particular model, and it had pushbuttons which could be tuned to any particular channel on the UHF, VHF I or VHF III bands.

[Richardcoulter]

Originally Posted by AidanLunn

Those two weren't though. I believe the one in the house (with the mysterious 1970 VHS recorder) is a Decca Bradford chassis, the one showing Miss Word in the pub, a Decca 70 chassis, neither of which were dual standard.

I bought a 26" ex rental set from a TV rental shop, just like the one in the pub. I thought it was a Decca It made a massive bang one night and something shout out of the back. Was this a usual fault for this model and do you know what it could have been? My parents made me get rid of it after that.

Originally Posted by Dan's Dad

The Government set up a committee under Sir Harry Pilkington to look into the future of broadcasting in 1961.
It reported in the summer of 1962, recommending

migration to 625 transmission on UHF
that there should be 4 national services
- the existing BBC Television Service
- the existing ITA contracted regional service
- a third service provided by the BBC (BBC-2 which opened 2 years later)
- 4th service, to remain unallocated in the short term.
that the BBC should start experimental colour transmissions on 625.

Pilkington was less than enthusiastic about the programming provided by the ITA's contractors, and dangled the carrot of the 4th channel if they 'pulled their socks up'.

Some ITV contracting companies didn't much like this and tried to go it alone with 405 colour.

It was never envisaged that the migration to 625 would be rapid, and hence years of dual 405/625 working, together with a mix of b&w/colour transmissions.

These were the days when the hours of transmission where limited by statute, and spending on national projects such as this expansion controlled by government.

I was first offered a job by the BBC in the autumn of 1966, partly associated with continuing expansion as a consequence of Pilkington,
that date was delayed until the next spring as a direct result of Government intervention on BBC spending.
I went to University instead and took up a full time position three years deferred, just before the start of BBC-1 and ITV colour, a time when a lot of BBC staff were being poached!

One vacation job I had was for a cable distribution company, modifying their rental 'receivers' for 625 working!

I thought that the early cable TV receivers (like link, my Grandma had one) were just dummy receivers with everything piped in. Could some receive OTA broadcasts too

Originally Posted by Dan's Dad

The BBC/BREMA Colour Television Receiver Film was essentially about the alignment of dual standard colour TVs.

I transmitted it so many times, I became word perfect!

Thanks for that. Could you see/hear what you were playing out? I've read about someone who used to bring his own records to play in his lunchhour at the BBC. One day, he was talking to a TV mast person, who said that they enjoyed listening to the music that was sometimes piped down and that they sometimes put it out over their transmitter

You once said that you used to put the films into a bin at the end. Were they stored in a bin when not in use?

[ianradioian]

The aim was to have some sort of colour service ( not all day, every programme) in place for bbc 1 and itv by Jan. 1970. In the event, the engineers managed to bring this forward by 5 or 6 weeks to Nov. 1969.
Many colour sets were dual standard, from 1967, from Bush, Decca,Ferguson, Kolster-Brands ( K-B/ ITT ), Plessey(badged for other makes) and among others, Philips ,who had the first colour set available on the British market -- the G6.,( in 1966, the year before the limited colour service on bbc2 which started in 1967).
For many years, colour was limited sometimes to a couple of hours a day on the channels, and colour wasnt fully rolled out in the UK until 1976. Even after this date, much studio work was colour, with news reports or film, in b/w .
Many of the early sets were technically very complex, and used a lot of electricity, and would run hot. They would drifted from their settings, and showed lairy colour pictures, with a red tint, or purple faces etc...hot valves and early transistors made the sets hard working, and it was common for the picture brightness and colour to change throughout an evenings viewing.
I think by about 1973/4 the dual standard colour sets had stopped and were all 625 line tuners...it seems a very long time ago, now.

[cyril-furr]

Originally Posted by lundavra

BBC had quite a number of transmitters on Band III, BBC Winter Hill was Band III.

I stand corrected! I lived near London in those days - no excuse of course

[Bandspread199]

Originally Posted by cyril-furr

I stand corrected! I lived near London in those days - no excuse of course

Well, to be honest, Band 1 was the preferred band for BBC, but as the service expanded, some TXs had to go on Band 3!

[iangrad]

In the case of Winter Hill for North West England BBC (1) was put on ch12 ( Band 3 with ITC on CH9 ) in circa 1963 / 4 because the service from Holme Moss ( in West Yorkshire ) on CH2 required very large elaborate double X type aerials to get even watchable pictures on the Fylde coast and even up as far as the south Lakes . The CH12 beam was directed to the west only .

Useless trivia !!

[tedjrr]

Originally Posted by iangrad

In the case of Winter Hill for North West England BBC (1) was put on ch12 ( Band 3 with ITC on CH9 ) in circa 1963 / 4 because the service from Holme Moss ( in West Yorkshire ) on CH2 required very large elaborate double X type aerials to get even watchable pictures on the Fylde coast and even up as far as the south Lakes . The CH12 beam was directed to the west only .

Useless trivia !!

Neither trivia nor useless.

Belmont on ch E13 carried BBC1 largely because the B2 service from Holme Moss was marred in Lincolnshire by sound interference that gave rise to a hetredone producing a horrendous audible oscillation.

In today's engineering you'd ask why anyone would try to provide a domestic television service on a frequency that was effectively short wave. OK it did cover from Dublin to Cleethorpes and Skegnes, but the Moss was hardly the hero of regional broadcast planning!

[leslie123]

Reason being is because Band 1 signals would travel over a large area without having to build relay stations. BBC1 from Crystal Palace on Channel 1 would cover a massive area. There were even reports under the right atmospheric conditions of it being picked up in Australia.

[Dan's Dad]

Originally Posted by Richardcoulter

I thought that the early cable TV receivers .... were just dummy receivers with everything piped in.

They were as standard receivers but without a tuner - the 'front end' detected the vision that was modulated on a carrier frequency, the audio was un-modulated.