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2G Network Closure
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Katharine_Range
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Stereo Steve:
“Because one day you'll be one.”

And when I am, I won't mind have to do things like replace my mobile phone because of old standards being switched off, if it means the UK is able to progress.

I bet in Japan, where 2G no longer exists, their elderly population didn't kick up a huge fuss over the loss of 2G!
Denco1
01-05-2015
You do remember the massive process that the digital switchover was, with Digital UK being setup to help the elderly.
Obviously people will naturally upgrade to 2G/3G and 2G/3G/4G phones but many will see no reason to upgrade there 2G only Nokia's especially if they will be having to pay and also learn how to use a new phone.
Stereo Steve
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Katharine_Range:
“And when I am, I won't mind have to do things like replace my mobile phone because of old standards being switched off, if it means the UK is able to progress.

I bet in Japan, where 2G no longer exists, their elderly population didn't kick up a huge fuss over the loss of 2G!”

Yep, I'm sure you will.
Thine Wonk
01-05-2015
They need to stop selling 2G devices for at least 2-3 years before they can switch it off, and that includes GSM modules for alarm systems and other devices.

In my opinion EE should choose that strategy and them push the small amount of customers that cannot upgrade to 3G/4G onto a MVNO arrangement with a provider like Vodafone.

I think Ofcom would be quite accommodating to this idea as they want to encourage next gen technology and the best use of spectrum and it wouldn't really impact pricing at all.
Denco1
01-05-2015
But isn't EE likely to switch off 2G after Vodafone not before?
enapace
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“But isn't EE likely to switch off 2G after Vodafone not before?”

Vodafone is more likely to turn off 2G first so they can refarm the 900MHz spectrum. Where As EE have a lot of 1800MHz already being used for 4G there is less benefit for them.
Denco1
01-05-2015
That's what I was thinking, so if anything Vodafone would be moving customers over to a MVNO running on EE than the other way round.
moox
01-05-2015
AT&T in the US are seriously pushing a 2G switchoff at the moment, their website about it seems to be dedicated to M2M and not consumer users (most of which probably have 3G or 3G/4G devices now)

Originally Posted by Denco1:
“You do remember the massive process that the digital switchover was, with Digital UK being setup to help the elderly.
Obviously people will naturally upgrade to 2G/3G and 2G/3G/4G phones but many will see no reason to upgrade there 2G only Nokia's especially if they will be having to pay and also learn how to use a new phone.”

Digital switchover was also massive because of the need to completely rebuild the transmission network and have to co-ordinate the analogue switchoff around the switchoff of the old digital network and the switch on of the replacement, and everyone having to obtain new equipment.

This is something the mobile companies don't have to do - they just have to stop transmitting 2G or 3G and can reclaim the spectrum or any equipment at their convenience, and most people will have phones that work on any standard by the time that they do this
enapace
01-05-2015
AT&T are having to switch of there 2G network due to lack of spectrum for 4G.
Denco1
01-05-2015
I'm not suggesting that we don't have a 2G/3G network switch off, I'm just suggesting that by 2020 the networks won't have 100% of customers on 2G/3G or 2G/3G/4G phones, let alone VoLTE phones.

And yes the digital switchover was massive because of the rebuild work required, but didn't Digital UK end up helping and subsidising the cost of new equipment more than originally expected? I don't think simply telling the last few percent to upgrade or loose service will be a very popular decision.

Just take a look at DAB, how long have we be warned of a FM switch off, but we still have no set date partly because uptake of DAB radios is below expectations.
jchamier
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“Just take a look at DAB, how long have we be warned of a FM switch off, but we still have no set date partly because uptake of DAB radios is below expectations.”

Not surprising when you can't get surround sound amps with DAB because the sound quality on DAB is too poor. In the UK we've got a lot of car drivers with DAB but home listening is problematic - portable radios use too much battery too compared to FM.
moox
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“I'm not suggesting that we don't have a 2G/3G network switch off, I'm just suggesting that by 2020 the networks won't have 100% of customers on 2G/3G or 2G/3G/4G phones, let alone VoLTE phones.”

You didn't have 100% of TV owners on digital TV at analogue switchoff either. It just has to be reduced to an insignificant level, and at some point the cost savings from the shutdown will outweigh the one time cost of sending out a few cheap phones or ignoring those who don't make any money for you (the "cheap phone in car for emergencies" type people)

If 2G only phones were removed from sale in a year or two I would bet that a very very large number of users will have 3G/4G/5G phones by 2020.

Even smartphones with 4G are becoming cheaper and cheaper, though still not "£10 Nokia" cheap.

Originally Posted by Denco1:
“And yes the digital switchover was massive because of the rebuild work required, but didn't Digital UK end up helping and subsidising the cost of new equipment more than originally expected? I don't think simply telling the last few percent to upgrade or loose service will be a very popular decision.”

Digital UK was mostly just a PR and publicity organisation, the investment and technical decision making would be from Ofcom/the broadcasters/Arqiva

If you try to wait for full adoption to happen you'll be waiting forever. You have to force the issue by setting deadlines and giving people time to switch, and then if they don't, they lose out. Obviously this requires some responsibility from the networks too - like not selling 2G only phones and then deciding to switch off the network a month later.

Popularity doesn't matter - the minority people with older phones will likely be the least profitable (as occasional users or on the cheapest contracts) and you're not going to keep a nationwide network running for eternity just for them.

Originally Posted by Denco1:
“Just take a look at DAB, how long have we be warned of a FM switch off, but we still have no set date partly because uptake of DAB radios is below expectations.”

That's also because it hasn't really been forced. Threats of switch off are not the same as set-in-stone dates. Plus the coverage is not there yet and there's still the issue of audio quality which will sort of need a switchover in itself, from DAB to DAB+ so we can use more efficient codecs. There's still no plan for smaller stations, although Ofcom has been seeing how cheaply you can run a very small multiplex with simple hardware
d123
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by moox:
“
If 2G only phones were removed from sale in a year or two I would bet that a very very large number of users will have 3G/4G/5G phones by 2020.


”

There are still plenty of people using Nokia 3310, 3410 and 6310's. Work out when they were released and see how far out your "year or two" theory is.
lightspeed2398
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by d123:
“There are still plenty of people using Nokia 3310, 3410 and 6310's. Work out when they were released and see how far out your "year or two" theory is.”

I've still got an EE SIM in my Nokia 3310, charge it weekly and carry it as a backup, for that job it works great. It's simple, rugged and I don't really worry about losing it.
Denco1
01-05-2015
So 48% of O2 customers don't have a smartphone now, but in just 5 years the percentage of 2G only phones will be low enough to switch off 2G? Somehow I just don't think so.
Yes if we wait for full adoption we would be waiting an eternity, but with no spectrum shortage and 2G coverage footprint exceeding 3G coverage and likely to stay that way, why turn off 2G first?
I think some bandwidth should be set aside if 2G is turned off if only for emergency calls only.

Radio is more relevant than I previously thought. FM being 2G and DAB being 3G, DAB+ being 4G. I reckon we could see DAB switch off before FM, because the spectrum is unlikely to be refarmed for anything, and DAB is all about quantity over quality. Even the digital 2 multiplex is making the same mistake, with the DAB+ station having a tiny bit rate allocation.
moox
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by d123:
“There are still plenty of people using Nokia 3310, 3410 and 6310's. Work out when they were released and see how far out your "year or two" theory is.”

Can you put a number on "plenty"? I'd bet there orders of magnitude more people using the latest Samsung or Apple flagship (and who will be on the Samsung or Apple flagship of 2020 in all likelihood), than a few people hanging onto 6310s because they work in their car kits.

As I said in my previous post, you have to nudge people into changing. Set a 2G deadline and publicise it and people will switch - because they have to.

There were people still using analogue only TV sets (some of which aren't even colour) at analogue switchover. Should we have scrapped the switchover because of that? Of course not - owners got the choice of buying a digital box for their old TV, or buying a new TV and that was that.

I'm sure there were people using analogue mobile phones in 2001 too. Didn't stop the necessary TACS switchoff. Why should an eventual GSM switchoff be delayed because a few people are using 20 year old phones?
moox
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“So 48% of O2 customers don't have a smartphone now, but in just 5 years the percentage of 2G only phones will be low enough to switch off 2G? Somehow I just don't think so.
Yes if we wait for full adoption we would be waiting an eternity, but with no spectrum shortage and 2G coverage footprint exceeding 3G coverage and likely to stay that way, why turn off 2G first?
I think some bandwidth should be set aside if 2G is turned off if only for emergency calls only.”

That'll be up to the network operators of course. Unlike TACS there was no pressing efficiency/security issue to require it to be switched off, but if VoLTE on 800MHz is a success they might decide to switch one of the two off to simplify things. 3G needs more spectrum but it is capable of more (data), 2G is more efficient.

I've concentrated on 2G because that will need new phones for anyone with 2G only handsets. Every 3G phone can do 2G, and any 4G phone can do 2G or 3G. Apart from slower data if 3G is switched off when using a non-4G phone, it won't be so obvious or affecting

And of course 3 doesn't even own a 2G network. That may change if they get O2, but they may also decide that O2's network is so crap they'll scrap it and use the best bits to upgrade the 3 network instead
Thine Wonk
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“So 48% of O2 customers don't have a smartphone now, but in just 5 years the percentage of 2G only phones will be low enough to switch off 2G? Somehow I just don't think so.
Yes if we wait for full adoption we would be waiting an eternity, but with no spectrum shortage and 2G coverage footprint exceeding 3G coverage and likely to stay that way, why turn off 2G first?
I think some bandwidth should be set aside if 2G is turned off if only for emergency calls only.

Radio is more relevant than I previously thought. FM being 2G and DAB being 3G, DAB+ being 4G. I reckon we could see DAB switch off before FM, because the spectrum is unlikely to be refarmed for anything, and DAB is all about quantity over quality. Even the digital 2 multiplex is making the same mistake, with the DAB+ station having a tiny bit rate allocation.”

O2 is stuck in the dark ages though, every other network has more smartphone customers with ee and Thee over 90% I believe.
d123
01-05-2015
Originally Posted by moox:
“
I've concentrated on 2G because that will need new phones for anyone with 2G only handsets. Every 3G phone can do 2G, and any 4G phone can do 2G or 3G. Apart from slower data if 3G is switched off when using a non-4G phone, it won't be so obvious or affecting”

You've just argued against your own point. There is more valid argument for 3G to go before 2G and the networks to run a 2G/4G mix.

By way of 2G only customers, there will be millions of people still with 2G only handsets just from the network numbers of non-smartphones, o2 alone is 24 million with 48% non-smartphone (if even 10% of those were 2G phones that would be one million+ handsets).

I used to run 3 shops that had a repair centre, I still have dealings with the new owner and I've seen the number of old phones that people will pay stupid money to repair because they refuse to upgrade to a phone that they say they can't use.

Think about it, why does the acknowledged market leader of 4G in the UK still sell 5 or 6 different dumb 2G only handset models?
jonmorris
01-05-2015
I agree that a definite date needs to be given, and given other switch offs we can safely assume this to be something like 7-10 years from now - not a couple of years. The digital TV switchover took ages.

Perhaps in the shorter term, some of the 2G spectrum could be re-used for 4G, allowing people with 2G handsets to still use them - and without any real negative effect, given the reduced number of users.

The other option is of course to re-use 3G spectrum for 4G first, which would be far more efficient. As every phone supports 2G, nobody would lose service (well, bar Three but by then it will have combined with O2) in terms of being able to still use their device for calls and data, but will obviously be incentivised to upgrade to a 4G phone that will now have incredible coverage and capacity.
d123
02-05-2015
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“I agree that a definite date needs to be given, and given other switch offs we can safely assume this to be something like 7-10 years from now - not a couple of years. The digital TV switchover took ages.

Perhaps in the shorter term, some of the 2G spectrum could be re-used for 4G, allowing people with 2G handsets to still use them - and without any real negative effect, given the reduced number of users.

The other option is of course to re-use 3G spectrum for 4G first, which would be far more efficient. As every phone supports 2G, nobody would lose service (well, bar Three but by then it will have combined with O2) in terms of being able to still use their device for calls and data, but will obviously be incentivised to upgrade to a 4G phone that will now have incredible coverage and capacity.”

I agree, and would add that about Three, its not really an issue as they don't have any 2G to lose service on anyway, any existing refarming would have to be 3G spectrum for them.
enapace
02-05-2015
Originally Posted by jonmorris:
“I agree that a definite date needs to be given, and given other switch offs we can safely assume this to be something like 7-10 years from now - not a couple of years. The digital TV switchover took ages.

Perhaps in the shorter term, some of the 2G spectrum could be re-used for 4G, allowing people with 2G handsets to still use them - and without any real negative effect, given the reduced number of users.

The other option is of course to re-use 3G spectrum for 4G first, which would be far more efficient. As every phone supports 2G, nobody would lose service (well, bar Three but by then it will have combined with O2) in terms of being able to still use their device for calls and data, but will obviously be incentivised to upgrade to a 4G phone that will now have incredible coverage and capacity.”

Honestly by time 2G/3G is shut off think we will have 5G networks in place. Imagine by end of 2017 I will be fully on the 4G network and a lot of us on this forum will be hardly ever seeing 2G/3G on our devices.

But you probably right Ofcom will probably have to organise a switch off imagine around same sort of time that they start to organise the Digital TV switch off for IPTV.

PS well apart from DevonBloke in his nuclear fallout shelter.
jabbamk1
02-05-2015
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“My prediction for the not too distance future is...

3G turned off.
Basic 2G EDGE UK wide for legacy devices and M2M.
4G/4G+ on 800 / 1800 / 2100 / 2600.”

You are correct.
DevonBloke
02-05-2015
Originally Posted by jabbamk1:
“You are correct.”

Thank you.
I have been banging on about this for seemingly decades!
3G while currently the most versatile technology we have (simultaneous voice and fast data) until VoLTE comes along, everything else about it is a right pain in the arse!!
Said that Tom bloke from EE while tweaking his IMS test bed.
Hahaha
jonmorris
02-05-2015
Just checked my O2 phone and it seems they've turned off 3G already. Actually, did they ever have it?
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