[curls2006]

Originally Posted by Leanna1989

it's easy to blur the line between moral and immoral when you do not have Biblical principles to base morality on.

Actually it's quite the opposite: it's easy to blur the line between moral and immoral when you have an authority like god to hide behind. Incidentally, I've been discussing Milgram's experiment on response to authority on a different thread which leads me to coin the (rather clumsy) phrase, "God is the biggest Milgram of them all!"

[johnnybgoode83]

Originally Posted by Akane Tendo

Sadly people brainwashed to the extent Leanna is don't have minds to think for themselves.

I'm not saying all Christians are like this , but she is an extreme case. People like her stifle progress and instead of going forwards society goes backwards to the dark ages.

To be fair, our society is nothing like the dark ages and is progressing all the time

[Akane Tendo]

Originally Posted by johnnybgoode83

To be fair, our society is nothing like the dark ages and is progressing all the time

No but she's from the bible belt of America isn't she? They try and brainwash people with their views at a young age in schools by teaching all this creationist rubbish like it's fact.

[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by Leanna1989

As a Christian I look at it as a sin issue. There's no such thing as a good person. We are all sinners in need of salvation and God's grace. We have a propensity to sin, and it's through God's grace that we can come closer to living Holy lives.

Society does have its own definition of morality, but its definition does not match God's. To God sin is anything that breaks God's law. As Christians, our covenant with God is that we will love Him and try our best to obey Him. We're not perfect. He knows that. However, he looks at our hearts and what we try to do. If we earnestly seek to please God then he is pleased with that. Sin hurts Him, first because it is rebellion in us and also because he knows sin hurts us. We cannot completely follow the law on our own, but hopefully we will love God and desire to please Him, and effort is what he wants.

There's a song by Casting Crowns called "Slow Fade." It's about a man cheating on his wife but I think it has some basic Christian undertones. Sin is an infection, so to speak, that we all are born with since Adam and Eve first sinned. This is a corrupt world and is getting increasingly corrupt. It is becoming harder and harder to live for God. With this infection we can choose to either repent and turn to God and he will help us to not sin, or we can surrender to the infection and not try to stop sin. Most people do the second. God could stop bad things from happening, but then he would have to take away our free will. He doesn't want to make us love Him. The right choice is to serve the Lord, but he won't force us to make that choice. It is our right to be slaves to sin if we want to, but there are consequences to sin, especially when we make no effort to stop sin.

To me, people are surrendering to sin more than ever before. People are turning their backs to God more than ever before, at least in the First World (the church is said to be growing in Asia, Africa, and South America, though exact numbers are not known) I think society reflects the loss of a desire to please God. As the people become more sinful, more corrupt, so do the societies of the countries these people are in.

Of course, people who are not Christians still have morals, but I think it's easy to blur the line between moral and immoral when you do not have Biblical principles to base morality on. Our basic nature is to sin, to lie, and to be selfish. So if we don't have Biblical principles for morality I think that makes it easier for us to do immoral things if those immoral things are better for what we need.

It's leading up the rapture, the tribulation, and what is prophesied in the book of Revelation. There are different ideas as to how exactly everything will happen, as Revelation tends to write things in symbolism. However, the basic idea is that God will only tolerate the wicked world for so long. At some point, he will take Christians out of the world and allow the wickedness to take over. Some believe the rapture is before the tribulation, or mid-tribulation, or after it. The Bible doesn't give an exact schedule of it. As long as Christians are in the world, it's a roadblock to what the devil wants to do, though the devil will still get some things done. God will eventually (some would say soon) allow evil to take control. It's not that he doesn't care about people, but he can only tolerate the rebellious world for so long. He will eventually leave the world to its own devices and its own sin for a few years.

It is believed that Christ will return before or during the tribulation to take Christians home. Satan and his anti-Christ will rule for a few years (most say about seven years) and then Christ will return, overthrow the devil after the battle of Armageddon, and Christ will set up his reign on earth for 1,000 years. Then the devil will be released for a short time, the earth will be destroyed, and after that a new heaven and a new earth will be created by God. At least that is my understanding of it.

Moral decay, to me, is more about sin getting a bigger foothold in the lives of people. As the world cares less about God, its moral foundation becomes weaker, and people begin to blur the lines of moral and immoral. The world continues to get more corrupt, and it will get much more corrupt before it gets better. The loss of a desire to please God, plus the removal of Christians, will allow Satan almost free reign for a few years to do what he wants. What we have to decide is whether we will live for God or live for ourselves, and living for ourselves consequently means living for sin and for Satan. We all have to choose, there is no middle ground, and time is running out before the tribulation begins, if it hasn't begun already.

The best thing any individual or society or nation can do is to repent and turn back to God. Ask Him into your heart. Ask Him to forgive you and be your savior. Love Him. It's not as hard as you might expect. Loving God is great because He protects you and you have a such a peace you don't have otherwise. Salvation is a journey, and it's not always easy, but when you live for God the reward will be so much greater than any struggle and pain you encounter trying to serve God. The tribulation and Armageddon will still happen, but if we serve Jesus Christ we know that we will be okay. If a majority of the world, or even a society, served God the moral decay there wouldn't be nearly as bad. Unfortunately, I think we are on a fast track to the tribulation because most people will not turn back to God. We can each turn to God as individuals, and maybe draw the people around us closer to Him, so that at least we would be safe. There's no reason not do draw nearer to God. He's our salvation.

I happen to have a (reform) Christian background and yet I do not recognise a lot of the above. To cast people as inherently sinful from birth comes across as a somewhat hardline interpretation to which I most certainly do not subscribe. All across Britain right now, large and small acts of kindness and charity are taking place and that belies the world view given above and by sheer coincidence I was just talking to a representative of Christian Aid and they do much good to alleviate the suffering of others.

The real key should be in the message of Christ Jesus as contained in the Four Gospels about good conduct to all fellow people, forgiveness and so on.

Originally Posted by Akane Tendo

Sadly people brainwashed to the extent Leanna is don't have minds to think for themselves.

I'm not saying all Christians are like this , but she is an extreme case. People like her stifle progress and instead of going forwards society goes backwards to the dark ages.

I am pleased that there are tolerant, inclusive and humane churches that are around today to set a good example such as the Society of Friends (Quakers).

[johnnybgoode83]

Originally Posted by Akane Tendo

No but she's from the bible belt of America isn't she? They try and brainwash people with their views at a young age in schools by teaching all this creationist rubbish like it's fact.

I was only messing

Yeah, I see what you mean. Some of the more extreme views are quite scary.

[Trsvis_Bickle]

Originally Posted by Akane Tendo

Sadly people brainwashed to the extent Leanna is don't have minds to think for themselves.

I'm not saying all Christians are like this , but she is an extreme case. People like her stifle progress and instead of going forwards society goes backwards to the dark ages.

Hey, what 's wrong with the Dark Ages?

I was just reading an archive copy of Ye Olde Daylie Mayl from the 16th Century and it was lamenting the appalling changes wrought by the Renaissance and harking back to the good old Dark Ages.

[johnnybgoode83]

Originally Posted by TelevisionUser

I happen to have a (reform) Christian background and yet I do not recognise a lot of the above. To cast people as inherently sinful from birth comes across as a somewhat hardline interpretation to which I most certainly do not subscribe. All across Britain right now, large and small acts of kindness and charity are taking place and that belies the world view given above and by sheer coincidence I was just talking to a representative of Christian Aid and they do much good to alleviate the suffering of others.

The real key should be in the message of Christ Jesus as contained in the Four Gospels about good conduct to all fellow people, forgiveness and so on.



I am pleased that there are tolerant, inclusive and humane churches that are around today to set a good example such as the Society of Friends (Quakers).

This is what I also believe

[KarlSomething]

Originally Posted by Leanna1989

As a Christian I look at it as a sin issue. There's no such thing as a good person.

You have a very dark view of humanity. Sure, there's a lot of bad stuff going on here, but I know a lot of good people.

We are all sinners in need of salvation and God's grace. We have a propensity to sin, and it's through God's grace that we can come closer to living Holy lives.

And what exactly is a holy life? Is that the same as a good life? If not, why can't you just live a good life?

Are you saying that you can't, for example, not punch a child in the face, unless you ask God to make you not punch that child in the face?

As Christians, our covenant with God is that we will love Him and try our best to obey Him.

It's your covenant to love? I don't think your love of God is anything like what I would understand as love.

Obedience I can see as part of a covenant, but obedience and love don't go together in that way. If at all. Maybe it can work for someone with a BDSM fetish.

To me, people are surrendering to sin more than ever before.

You keep going on about sin, without really saying much about what you recognize as sin. You've also suggested that everyone sins, no matter what. If that's the case, I don't see the problem. I know a lot of people who are doing just fine, and aren't causing harm to those around them, despite this supposed sinning that they engage in. And I'm sure you do to, unless everyone you know have been brainwashed in the same way to always feel guilty, no matter how decent people they actually are.

There's no reason not do draw nearer to God. He's our salvation.

Our salvation from what? God's final solution?

[Akane Tendo]

Originally Posted by johnnybgoode83

This is what I also believe

Although I'm not a Christian, that is what I always believed of Christianity.

I don't like Leanna's hardline views on what a Christian should be. Why are we all sinners and have to seek salvation? Who said that because it's not what I've read in the bible. Sounds like something that could come from the old testament. We're all meant to seek forgiveness and turn the other cheek.

I also don't like her views that morals in society have to be determined by 'gods laws' and anything that goes against that means a person is bad.

[James2001]

People have been complaining about the decline of society for as long as society's been around. Every generation thinks they were better than the next, but it's not realy true.

[johnnybgoode83]

I believe everyone is born with a clean slate, as it were, and we become sinners through personal choices.

[Babycakes15]

Reading the OPs list of immoral things, I'm probably classed as immoral. I binge drink and I prefer casual sex to a long term relationship. But I don't think of myself as immoral. I don't take drugs, I don't cause trouble, I'm studying to be a barrister whilst mainting a job as a bar manager and I look after my family and help care for my disabled auntie. Just as I do a few 'immoral' things, I'm a nice person. Some people just like to be stupid and they can get away with it.

[James2001]

Originally Posted by Akane Tendo

No offence Leanna1989 but why do you have to come into threads like this and spout religious drivel?

It's sad to see someone so brainwashed.

Yes, her psots really do trouble me because they really are... too OTT. Brainwashed really does feel like the right word here.

[archiver]

Originally Posted by Babycakes15

Reading the OPs list of immoral things, I'm probably classed as immoral. I binge drink and I prefer casual sex to a long term relationship. But I don't think of myself as immoral. I don't take drugs, I don't cause trouble, I'm studying to be a barrister whilst mainting a job as a bar manager and I look after my family and help care for my disabled auntie. Just as I do a few 'immoral' things, I'm a nice person. Some people just like to be stupid and they can get away with it.

Be careful not to get your bars mixed up when you qualify.

[howmanytimes]

I think it's largely down to declining standards of education and the thirst for materialism the 80's imbued us with. Our values suffered when money and things became more important and many people got into debt problems as a result.

Unemployment is another big reason, as when people have a lot of free time on their hands with no purpose in life they're likely to feel unfulfilled, which is a story of the 80's and the cause of much alcohol and drug abuse in this country. I guess a lot of it has to do with offshoring jobs.

Family breakdown is another big cause, especially because of the repurcussions that has for many growing up and the negative cycles that ensue. I think this has a lot to do with both parents working too much in some cases, and also problems caused in part, by debt.

[Radiomaniac]

Originally Posted by Leanna1989

As a Christian..........(ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip)

You lost me after 'Christian'.

Life is too short to read all that stuff.