There isn't really anything left.

And the voting change is a problem for them because once the fanbases are built it's much harder to undo than before with the death slot and pimp slot. The whole show is just a fanbase war now.

Basically it's a complete mess, and they are running out of stories and used their controversy piece already in week 1 which backfired. Ella being too much of a stand-out is also a problem.

All you have left is stuff pandering to the existing fanbases, like the battle of the boyblands, and people just watching for the train to come off the tracks with Rylan/Christopher and Grumpy Gary losing his acts which is so badly acted that I think people would just prefer it to hurry up and happen.

This year is done, big changes needed for next year.

I've probably mentioned a number of times today, if we get the kind of winter we had in 2010, viewing figures would get a boost a bit.

There are so many things they can do, I don't think they are bothering. The scheduling is one factor, it finishes too late at after 10, and there are too many ad breaks. I don't think they have gone once in a while with having THREE acts in between ad breaks.

What kind of changes, won't viewers get sick of inconsistency? Simon won't come back because there'll be a third series of XFUSA.

The consistency viewers want is the show they used to love, the people they liked being on it, and mainly the show a lot could still believe.

Barlow has shot the show's credibility to shreds. That's what killed it last year with Frankie on the back of Weasel and then Cher/Mary. And rather than fix it, they made it far worse in the very first week of the lives this year as an attention-seeking stunt.

The only attention it brought on the show was why millions had given up on it already. The show became a joke, and people stop talking about a joke as well. It stops being cool, just like what happened with BB.

The time it starts, darker nights, ad breaks, doesn't matter when the core of the problem is people have stopped caring and don't want to invest the time in such a long show over so many weeks. There is no point when they don't trust it, and this year's finalists are lacking in personality and dull to boot.

The show has been holed below the waterline the last 2 years, that's why it's sinking. At some point you need to chuck everyone off and go fix it.

Fewer ad breaks

Completely agree that this year is done and the rest of the competition is now damage limitation. If it can stay around 8.5m on a Saturday and 9.5m on a Sunday then they have a solid audience base going into next year, considering the first auditions show got 8.2m. It hasn't grown, but it hasn't shrunk either.

One of the biggest mistakes they made last year was signing two judges who were bigger than the show. They just assumed that all 4 of them would be scampering to return this year, and they stupidly sidelined Kelly whilst doing negotiations with Dannii, to which Kelly responded by ruling herself out. Then with Dannii refusing to return, they were left with noone. Rather than trying to find another big name, they should have went straight to Nicole who was already tried and tested in the UK. Its ironic that she only got the job because noone else could do it, yet she is by far the most popular judge at the minute. It's often the last minute and quick decisions that become the most popular- much like when Cheryl joined in 2008.

Even before the show came on air it was a complete mess because it was all played out in public. The advertising campaign was terrible and the TOWIE format of the first few auditions was awful. They did fix it by the end and saw a small rise, and bootcamp and judges houses performed quite well too but the first live weekend was just the epitomy of everything wrong with the show. It worked a couple of years ago but X Factor has always moved forward each year, but this year it seems to be relying on past years which is glaringly obvious. It all just looks fake and contrieved.

For next year, they need a massive shake up on the scale of this years BGT. They ditched half of the panel and brought in some great newbies in the shape of David & Alesha. The talent was much stronger this year too. Dropping Tulisa and Gary in favour of Cheryl & Simon or Mel B and a new male would inject some much needed life into the show. A suggestion could even be as simple as dropping Gary in favour of Robbie. He's a complete marmite character and is a crackpot to boot- perfect for the show. It's a shame there are no former male contestants who would be a suitable judge. They need to find a much better standard of talent, and most importantly they need to let the shows dynamics evolve naturally. Jedward worked and were great at the time causing a real buzz because it occurred completely by accident. Rylan isn't working because they've seen what has gone before and are actively trying to recreate it. The show also needs a better focus too, perhaps if the production came a little more tongue in cheek and fun instead of being deadly serious then it would translate with the public better.

Agree with all that.

And the end bit is something I've said for a long time. Part of the reason they managed to turn BGT around, apart from finding a great double act in Cowell/Walliams, is because BGT doesn't take itself seriously. Indeed Walliams is there to poke fun at it all from within. People are a lot more forgiving then.

XF though has always played on being the most important thing in the Universe, literally from the titles onwards, as part of its appeal and success. Well when you've shot your credibility to shreds you then only have 2 options:

1) Change course and play it above-board for once to get that credibility back
2) Take the high of 2010 which turned into a self-parody and play on it in a tongue in cheek way

XF did neither, so you have this dog's dinner of a show now that is neither one thing nor the other.

BB struggled after it's 7th year as well, when everything also fell to bits by the end and after. On C5 they are actually now going down the second option but it's all too late, and unfortunately no one has explained that to the hardcore fans that remain and have meltdowns daily on the BB forum when it's on

If the whole incident that happened in week 1 happened in any other year (with any of the other judges), yes the ratings would have been higher.

This year's BGT's series average (official figs) is 9.17m, with HD included it is 10.01, but some of the HD figures haven't been included (because they weren't available on BARB).

This year's XF series average stands at 8.71m (all non-HD figures up to 7 October). With HD included the average stands at 9.78m. What was the average at this stage in the past few series?

The following is what they still have that could make a bit of a change:

a) They lose an ad break
b) They revert to having celebrity guests duetting with the finalists
c) Having a different winners single for each of the finalists, Cannonball didn't suit Little Mix at all.
d) Avoiding incidents like in week 1. I recall on Xtra Factor, during last years final, when Simon did the Skype call, he said that he was happy with how the series went, but wished that there could have been a bit more controversy. He got his wish, but I doubt he would have been happy.
e) Returning to more popular themes, e.g Big Band.
f) Picking songs to suit the themes. I remember last year in rock week, there were lots of people going on about 'this wasn't rock' (well it was the judges in particular), and over the weekend, people complaining about singing ballads (Kye).
g) Of course, they need to try and create a buzz around the series, away from Rylan and the judges (unless that is their only option).

Thing is, if Chris and Rylan were gone in the next two weeks, would that change things around? Yes, we wouldn't have them to slam on this forum anymore, but would it change people's minds about not tuning in? What else can be done?

On the other hand, Xtra Factor, in my opinion, is better than ever (that you cannot deny).

Was BB ever 'bigger' than XF (once was)? Yes, 10m for the final in 2002, but has it created some sort of buzz?

It's C4, you are comparing apples and oranges.

I'd argue BB was a bigger phenomenon though, and XF borrowed massively from it in how to create stories through reality TV.

In terms of controversy and interest BB also wiped the floor with XF in its heyday. To the point the show imploded though.

It has 'hardcore' fans, but XF does seem to have had an effect on the music industry (I don't think i'll go any further ).

I don't think it's time to give up hope yet. That time will come when we are near week 6/7 when the weather isn't freezing and there isn't any momentum. They have the final at Manchester Central, I wonder if that'll have a more positive/exciting atmosphere than the final last year.

Not so much effect, it's just a modern update of the production-line approach to music of the late 80's/early 90's.

The shows (Idol/XF) being the television shop-window now, rather than TOTP and Saturday morning TV. Same old thing, different and more direct format.

, don't want to sound pushy (it probably will), but I was hoping for your response on that long post of mine above.

I know you are ever optimistic, but as explained before in my opinion all that is window-dressing and we are way past that point now. Things had to be addressed at the very start of this year, they actually went in completely the wrong way doing what people already didn't like but more of.

Then the same again with their only chance to relaunch which was week one of the lives.

As another poster said, it's a case of damage limitation now. You should be hoping they don't drop any further. Any rise, let alone a significant one is very unlikely. Your 10m average party may not happen this year I'm afraid

Everything done now is like putting lipstick on a pig, people have made their judgement this year already.

Pretty much, I have a feeling this year's average will be lower than BGT's (if it drops even more). Thankfully we are only into week 4, they do usually pick up a bit as we near the final. I won't lose hope of any rise, just not a significant one.

Big Brother was just as big as X Factor was during 2009 and 10. X Factor slowly burned for a few years before exploding, but Big Brother exploded straight away and stayed on top for a good 7 years. But it crashed a lot faster than X Factor has and has never recovered, but X Factor still has the opportunity to recover somewhat. I'm sure theres a link somewhere with X Factor really taking off and Big Brother going into oblivion.

Strictly Come Dancing and I'm a Celebrity both went through very rough patches around series 6-8 but have both bounced back very well. Britain's Got Talent went on the skids during series 4 and 5, but bounced back this year (even if the ratings were slightly down, but the series was received extremely well by critics).

X Factor has a blip during series 4 but recovered like no show ever has. It is going through a bit of a rougher patch now but it can recover somewhat. They just need to get it right next year. It can easily just be as big as last year or 2009 (2010 would be pushing it) with a bit of effort but in, but it could just as easily crash into obscurity like Big Brother did.

I don't think it can ever recover this year (to last year, at the moment) unless they pull something amazing out the bag (only if they are that clever) otherwise there is next year.

In terms of BGT, yes the series was well received by critics because of the chemistry with David & Simon, and the talent levels being slightly higher. It's phenomenal figures in 2009 were probably what boosted XF that year, (therefore they kept it the same for 2010, and the ratings kept increasing). The auditions last year were the highest ever I believe, but as it got to the lives, people got sick of it. It had the potential to rate as high as 2010, but a lot of the occurrences had a long term effect on the show unfortunately.

When BB was at its peak (Series 3) it was a truly bizarre phenomenon. Think about people discussing X Factor at work on a Monday morning - well, it used to be that, but 5 days a week, constant. The year Jade etc were in it (and arguably the year before with Brian and also Series 5) it was really the X Factor of its day. But even more dominant as it was on TV every night (sure it didn't get the ratings of The X Factor but it was, of course, on Channel 4... and some of the ratings highlights shows got in series 3 were for midweek in that time slot).

What kind of ratings was it getting in that timeslot?

And do you think XF would need to take a few pointers from BGT, bring a bit more excitement to the show?

Week 4 in history:

2011:
9.59m (38.8%)
11.93m (42%) *peak: 13.14m (44.5%)

2010:
12.22m (47.1%), *peak: 12.7m (49.4%)
13.02m (45.4%), *peak: 15.83m (51.5%)

2009:
10.34m (42.3%)
13.87m (47.8%), *peak: 15.8m (52%)

2008
10.94m (43.3%) *peak: 12.06m (48%)
8.67m (38.7%)

Just for comparisons, though not strongly. I'm not good with calculations, but if it was, say, 10% down on last year, what would that equal to?

8.6m and 10.7m with an 11.8m peak. Certainly doable for the first show and the results peak, but the results average will be about 1m off that.

That seems just about right (if you do take a 1m off the 10.7m average for the results show) based on what it has been getting for the past three weeks. If the average would be 10.7m then the peak would be near 13m.

It's 'Halloween' week on Sunday, in previous years it's set a series high at this point in the series, the bigger problem would be the fact that the show is on bonfire night a week later (the Sunday show).

BB3? Around 5.0-5.5m every weekday, I think. Sure, it doesn't sound huge, but for the channel and timeslot, it was pretty big.

That quite high, 5m on a weekday, especially for channel 4.

As mentioned above, XF is one of those shows which can easily recover, I don't know if another appearance from Simon will help the ratings (it didn't do too much at bootcamp).

It was the mindshare that BB had around that time that is why I'd say it was such a phenomenon.

It just captured the public and the media's imagination like nothing else, but then realised that the drama had to keep going up and up to maintain that. Until they went too far and it all imploded.

Its just got tired.............

Louis Walsh should have been binned about 4 years ago (and stayed binned) he brings nothing to the show, recycles his critique every week, and has become a parody of himself

Tulisa (and I know this wont be popular) IMHO is a talent void, whos been in the right place at the right time, another one with lazy critique who relies on buzz words like "current" "relevant" and "smashed it"

Gary Barlow has tried too hard to become Simon Coell lite, problem is that because he is such a nice guy, playing the bad cop role doesnt suit him and he looks uncomfortable

Kelly........tries to inject some Americana into the show, but is dragged down by the other three and consistantly goes OTT because of this

TBF I dunno who should be on the judging panel, perhaps Cowell and Barlow would be good, and possibly Mel B who at least has an opinion (take note Louis)

I remember when XF peaked with highs of 16m & 19m throughout the live shows, and people thought it would never happen again. They said the same next year after it peaked as high again (but this time they were correct). It's kind of going down the BGT route in terms of the ratings.