Ocht, he'd do for me, would wee Vince, but then again ,I've never been considered 'fussy'. I think we're going a bit off topic though craigh..

The silent majority of gay people are just getting on with their lives, 'out' to those that need to know. The idea that we are predisposed towards a liking for showtones and Judy Garland is cringemaking. Effeminate gay people are more noticeable and more likely to make it in entertainment, which is all very well but it does alienate a lot of men who are quite comfortable with their sexuality but can't identify with that stereotype.

I don't think many people understand the meaning of camp. Joe Pasquale (who I've no doubt is completely hetrosexual) seems just as camp to me as Paul Burrell. However, Paul fits in with a certain view of a gay person being a little too concerned with their physique and a little too fond of musicals.

As it happens, I think he's probably gay but that's his business. I think part of the reason he's been baited by Vic, JSP and Fran has been his sort of "don't go there" reaction whenever a comment has been made, just about the only topic he doesn't seem comfortable discussing. Also, I was watching the live feed and soon after Fran had made a joke about how he could imagine Paul on the cover of Attitude magazine, Paul seemed to make a point of (twice) telling Sophie that her skirt should have been cut even shorter, as if to say "see how straight I am?"

gay icon is a much overused and therefore value-less term nowadays..... but the focus tends to be on strong femininity in the face of personal struggle........ which is an obvious analogy for many gay men's lives living within a heterodictatorship.

But Judy Garland was anything but strong, she was vulnerability personified. On and off screen.

unfortunately while we continue to live in the shadow of the worlds "only superpower" who's leader intends to change the constitution in order to forbid gay marriage etc , or with globally influential figures such as the pope declaring gays to be evil, or young popular soap stars possibly slashing their wrists because people think they ae gay...... then the sexuality of celebrities is not a private matter, it is a political matter. hiding one's sexuality is colluding with the negativity.

similarly we live in an age that is obsessed with celebrity couples and celebrity babies. yet just about the only gay celebrity couple generally known about is bloody elton john and david furniture.

but thats where the songs and movies come in..... judy's voice and stage presence is mighty powerful, despite her vulnerability

also on the judy and liza (with a zee) icon thing theres the drink and the addiction, something which is disproportionately prevalent among gay men struggling with internalised self hatred.

and where does that assertion come from .....

It might be a good idea for you to get your coat.

This goes a little way to also explain the enduring popularity of Gloria Gaynor of I Will Survive fame in the gay and lesb scenes.

I'm with you, it's interesting to know these things, easy to see why Liza M is revered because she is Judy's daughter, and Judy Garland was the greatest performer who ever lived anyway, in addition to your other reasons

it comes from the disproportionately high level of young gay male suicides (within the high male suicide stats)...... it comes from the very existence of the closet (the lack of out gay football players for example)....

it comes from it being obvious that while growing up in a society that continues to present homosex as something "wrong" and "sinful" and something to hide.. that therefore its inevitable that many gay people will have splinters of negativity deep inside them from an early age.

it must come from something else too, surely, or we'd expect to see similar levels of suicide among young gay women, too - and we don't. The level of heterosexual men who try to kill themselves - and succeed - is much higher than with straight women too (will cite a source if I can find the damn site I read on this topic very recently!) - I'm not pretending to have the answers, but it is an interesting question.

He appears to be a lovely kind man. The fact that he is a bit light on his feet is neither here nor there. Paul to win.

i think the stats show a difference in the generally preferred method of suicide chosen by men and women. men's generally preferred methods tend to be more violent and sucessful.

(while my use of the words "it comes from" is responding to the question "where does that assertion come from"...... my original assertion being the high levels of excessive alcohol and drug use amonst gay men...... there are more commercial gay male spaces available than there are lesbian businesses (coz men still earn more), and therefore theres a higher drink/drug social lifestyle pattern)
Last edited by biomorph04 : 02-12-2004 at 19:07

I'm really disappointed by this whole thing in this day and age - mainly for his family. I really like Paul, and think Vic's comments were just sour grapes at being voted out so early.

It was just a joke from Vic. Obviously the Star have an agenda and I wouldn't defend them at all, but Vic was just making a joke on a live show. A bad taste joke maybe, but still just a joke.

He wanted to leave the jungle and join his wife anyway, and was delighted to be voted out, that was obvious - there was no reason for him to be bitter towards Paul or anyone.

judging by the various snide attempts to besmirch Burrel, it looks like the newspapers are outraged that we're not thinking in the way that they're instructing us to.

How dare we be fond of Burrel - haven't we got the message that we should hate him?

And the only reason the papers hate him is because he did NOT sell out to them!! Ironic, eh?

its similar to the tabloid atitude towards james hewitt..... i rarely bother voting in any reality shows, but i voted for james in back to reality. as he came across as being a genuinely good bloke.

Not quite correct.

He sold his story to the Daily Mirror. Each serialization of his former royal life was a sell-out for the paper.

I mean, I leave next door to a newsagent, and before noon, no copies of the Daily Mirror was available in any shop for miles. I couldn't believe it. I had to get up before 8 am to make sure I get my copy.

But he sold it to the Mirror for a fraction of the sum the other rags were offering him (one of which rang him every 15 minutes to increase their offer, he said) - because the Mirror is the "people's paper", according to Paul.

I'll rephrase that then. He spoke to The Mirror (who were offering the LEAST money) which really annoyed The Sun and the other tabloids.

Yep...he sold the exclusive to the Mirror..because they offered the least...the rest turned on him out of bitterness......Some still can't let it go....The Daily Express is very bitter about it still.....

The Police took action because he was found in possession of a load of property which did NOT belong to him. Property which he had ample time and opportuinity to return to it's rightful owner. This man has made a mint out of selling secrets etc.

He appears to be camp, but I have no idea whether or not he is gay. His sexuality should not be an issue anyway. He has got himself noticed and that's why I think he will survive to the last 3.