4G will not take off that quickly, will take a while to deploy and EE will only get an advantage of around 1 year. It might not have been that long if O2 hadn't already delayed the progress with legal threats to Ofcom.

All EE are doing is using existing spectrum for 4G, 1/2 of this spectrum was up for sale recently and could have been bought by O2, which could have gone with the other 1800Mhz they already own to launch their 4G service, which they could have also done ahead of other competitors. They are no stranger to frequency re-use as they have already done this for 3G with frequencies that used to be 2G only.

There's nothing here they couldn't have done themselves and this whole thing came about because of the auction delays of which O2 were the cause, so they shot themselves in the foot by having a strategy which angered competitor networks which really wanted to invest in 4G like 3 / EE, they also angered consumers and the regulator with their legal threats and delays.

I think I summed it up earlier. O2 you really are a disgrace, your pathetic excuse for a 3G network is a mess. Why not improve that before wasting more money on lawyers to push for 4G which you will only roll out to big cities, and if it's anything like your 3G service won't be up to much anyway.

O2 for once why not think of the consumer, YOU delayed 4G already. O2 weren't complaining about fair competition when they had the iPhone exclusivity or when they were allowed to re-use 900Mhz for 3G, which several other networks couldn't do. However here they could have bought that 1800Mhz spectrum EE had to sell.

Since Everything Everywhere CEO has stated that he will start a tit for tat war over 4G on 800Mhz and 2.6Ghz will you also condemn them as you have done O2?




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96cdaba8-e...#axzz24g38UlVw

EE are angry that O2 already delayed the auction, what they are saying it if O2 does this again with their 4G rollout they will try and hit back.

It's about time somebody took on O2, they weren't complaining about competition when they had the iPhone exclusivity or when they were allowed to re-use 900Mhz for 3G, which several other networks couldn't do. However here they could have bought that 1800Mhz spectrum EE had to sell and EE have done nothing that O2 couldn't have done if they had been smart.

O2 have angered EE and 3, they have angered the regulator and worked against consumer interests now causing these delays to next gen technologies. All whilst failing miserably to investing in the last generation of technology.

Given Ofcom have a poor record of winning when appeals got to the CAT I guess O2 fancy their chances winning this.

If they win this they should get their ability to do 900MHz 3G taken away too - it's only fair considering 3 of the 5 networks can't do it, and if O2 wants fairness suddenly then it should have it.

Of course this will have a drastic impact on their 3G coverage. Tens of people might suffer and have to use 2G!

Failing that their 900MHz spectrum costs should be instantly hiked up to 3G levels to reflect the new value that it has - 3 and EE have to pay billions for their 3G spectrum, can't let O2 and Vodafone do it for a fraction on much cheaper spectrum.

and then we will have the same story as 3g with 4g - poor coverage limited to cities and sod the rest of the customers.

Exactly, they weren't complaining then. I hate O2 it's the only network I would never go with again, I used to think they were cheap but looking at their website they are extortionate!

To somebody who knows these things:

What, if any at all, are the benefits of using 900MHz over other frequencies for 3G?

900mhz travels further and penetrates walls easier. So 1 single 900mhz mast vs 2100mhz mast makes quite a bit of coverage distance.

What he said above

Which is why 4G at 800MHz will be such a coveted asset rather than the band at 2600MHz....

Unlikely.
The only reason most existing LTE-capable handsets won't work in the UK is that they've been designed for other LTE networks using different frequencies. All the manufacturers need to do is change the modem and that's it, compatible with the UK.



I was under the impression that EE has already upgraded a significant number of their masts so that they had transmitters that can support LTE and that it's simply a matter of throwing a switch when the time's right.
And, as I explained above, handset compatibility won't be an issue for long - we could well see LTE handsets originally designed for other markets (the HTC One XL/AT&T One X or the LTE-capable Galaxy S3 variants, for example) being released here pretty soon.

The problem with this is that bandwidth is licenced and controlled by the government so companies have to compete using the framework the regulator has provided. The issue for O2, Vodafone and 3 is that they will have to wait a significant time to be able to compete with a similar product to Everything Everywhere's 4G. That is potentially unfair and could give the UKs biggest operator a commercial advantage. So perhaps O2 are right to challenge a change that affords one company a distinct advantage especially when O2 have been the most active developer of the technology now being rolled out.

Complicated issue but with an eye on the future all of those involved need to protect their interests.

The issue for Orange, T-Mobile and 3 is that when O2 were given permission to do 3G on 900MHz they will never be able to compete with a similar product, and O2 are now able to roll out a 3G network on the cheap (not that they've bothered with 3G) and get much more value out of spectrum they pay a pittance for while others have to pay so much more to do 3G. This is potentially unfair and could give the UK's shoddiest network a commercial advantage.


It will be two companies, or a majority of the licencees, once the sale of spectrum to 3 goes ahead. I think it's better to let the networks that want to invest and get going to do just that.

O2's the one delaying the auction with pointless legal challenges because they want it both ways. It's okay for them to get a licence variation that benefits themselves, but not for others to do it.

Could you describe what activity O2 has been up to regarding LTE? If what has been described is true, that EE have LTE ready to go on a lot of their masts, then it makes sense to let them do it.

The issue of 3G on 900Mhz is a bit of a red herring as both Vodafone and O2 must retain sufficient spectrum to support GSM coverage so the benefits are not as great as one might assume.

The issue with EE is that they are able to launch LTE on 1800MHz because of the dividend from the merger of two companies. Each on their own would not have had enough bandwidth to make LTE on 1800MHz worthwhile but merged they have with spectrum to spare which has now been sold to 3.

Does a single operator deserve to be given a year with an exclusive product ahead of all the others in the market paying licence fees?

Perhaps O2 will let things go and get on with the auction process but both they and Vodafone have a duty to their shareholders to protect their investments so they may be duty bound to challenge Ofcom.

Listen to what you're saying because it doesn't make sense. Each company already had enough spectrum to launch 4G @ 1800 Mhz. Even if they hadn't merged those operators could have done so, the fact they have merged means they sold off the excess to 3 who also plan to launch 4G using it. So there was enough spectrum from T-mobile and Orange separately for each of them to launch 4G@1800 MHZ before the merger.

That means the merger gave them no extra capability and that's why they had to hand over a large chunk to another operator. O2 could have bought this chunk and done the same, but they chose not to.

You were telling us the other day how brilliant the 900Mhz spectrum re-use was because it was so clever it was able to re-use the frequencies within the block for both 2G and 3G and that it was a significant benefit to them. If you search back your posts you'll see this. You can't have it both ways.

Also remember O2 opened up the window of opportunity for EE to launch an interim 4G service by delaying the 4G spectrum auction, so they have shot themselves in the foot and contributed to this situation.

Do they though?
I doubt there are any handsets around that aren't at least dual-band now, so if O2 switched off their 900MHz 2G services, would that really affect anyone?

I mean, if 2x10MHz is enough to run LTE, then surely the 2x5.8MHz in the 1800MHz band that O2 have would be enough for 2G.


I keep wanting to say that to placate O2 and Vodafone, they should be allowed to re-farm their 900MHz spectrum for LTE as well as HSPA but that really would be an unfair advantage due to the frequency involved and the fact that O2 and Vodafone have deliberately blocked any safeguards Ofcom have tried to put in place to ensure that everyone gets part of the 800MHz band.

The small holding O2 and Vodafone have at 1800Mhz is shared between them.

The problem is step666 that O2 haven't been working for over a year upgrading ready to turn to switch on for 4G like EE have. Even if they wanted to they don't have the backhaul built for 4G yet, even if they upgraded the cell sites they would be turning on 4G at 3G speeds, which would be a PR disaster!

We know EE / 3 have been building the backhaul because we saw articles over a year ago about them signing deals with BT and Virgin Media for it. No operator or supplier has put out any press release about building O2's backhaul for 4G though outside of the small-scale 1000 user trial in London on 9 masts, which was turned back off when the trial ended, we've not heard a whisper about 4G apart from the trials from O2, other than the legal threats to Ofcom and the attempts to delay the licencing auction from them.

They each have 2 x 5.8 of 1800Mhz and Ronan Dunne CEO of O2 was asked whether they were going to buy the 1800Mhz from EE, this was the response:

Meanwhile, Dunne declined to comment on whether the operator would be bidding for the 1800MHz spectrum Everything Everywhere is selling as part of the approval process of the Orange and T-Mobile merger. He said: ‘That’s highly commercially sensitive. We are generally interested in any spectrum because it’s a rare resource but it wouldn’t be appropriate to comment further.’

They absolutely could have done what 3 have done and bought that spectrum to launch 4G services, but they didn't.

He's not only right but that's what you yourself said before: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...6#post60706066

All of the mobile operators can buy backhaul easily from BT or Virgin or build their own. It's not a major issue for any of them and it is wrong to imagine that any of the operators are any less equipped to distribute volumes of data without hard evidence to prove the point. O2 and Vodafone have huge numbers using smartphones and mobile Internet and if they were seriously underprovisoned customers would be leaving in droves because their needs were not being met, but they are not!

As for 900Mhz both O2 and Vodafone have to support GSM as it is still pretty much the default carrier for voice and text across the widest area of the UK and will remain so for some years to come. Stores are still selling 900/1000Mhz GSM handsets in their millions for those who want simple mobile communications. The reliability of GSM is vital not only for them but also for those customers with 2100Mhz when the signal becomes unusable often within buildings and in rural areas.

Data is becoming more important but it is not likely that O2 or Vodafone will ever be allowed to compromise the quality of service that they provide for GSM.

I disagree Wave, whilst they may be able to by huge data pipes out of the network, the actual building of the higher bandwidth connections and links that trunk and carry network data from place to place within the LAN / cell sites takes time and money.

EE have spent the last couple of years building out a network to link sites and equip them for 4G. It's not just about ringing up BT and asking for 'more internets please' as your post implies.

If it was O2 could use their 2x10 @1800Mhz and launch a 4G service, however they haven't spent the year or more working towards that.

Thanks.

O2 have been testing LTE since 2009 and have conducted the largest trial of the technology in London over a 9 month period using 2600MHz with speeds up to 100Mbps involving several hunderd customers within a 40 Kilometre radius. To date this is the most extensive testing of the technology in the UK so O2 have every right to protect their investment. EE/BT did a smaller trial in a rural area for 3 months and Vodafone have had three LTE trials, 3 are about to trial LTE around Maidenhead. So of all the mobile operators it's O2 which has been most active with LTE technology in the UK to date.

"Cambridge Broadband Networks (CBNL) supplied the multipoint microwave backhaul solution for O2′s trial, and Lance Hiley, VP market strategy, explained that unlike Orange’s 4G trial that was based in Cornwall, O2’s 4G trial will work to address the issue of mobile broadband in one of the toughest environments in the world; the dense urban streets of London."

http://www.telecoms.com/36638/eacces...-japan-and-uk/

It isn't as simple as buying a bit of backhaul from BT and plugging it in to 'the internet'.