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Old 02-09-2012, 18:43
TheG-Man
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Well its not looking good for us PS3 owners, http://www.officialplaystationmagazi...-we-can-solve/
Sucks big time.
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Old 02-09-2012, 19:26
Ash_735
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As brilliant as Bethesda are, their coding skills kinda suck compared to other studios, just look at the amount of bugs and patches they've already issued on the PC, their supposed main platform! It's funny how they still complain about the PS3 yet other developers have simply gone quiet and got to work making their engines take advantage of different styles, not only that but developers who have improved things on the PS3 have also seen improvements on the Xbox 360 side so it came off as a Win/Win for both platform owners.
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Old 02-09-2012, 20:16
Hotbird
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Bethesda suck!!!

Its just a shame they make some of my favourite games this generation. If they spent half the time they spend moaning about the PS3 actually learning to code the thing we wouldn't be in this situation. If EA, Ubisoft, 2K and even a crappy company like THQ can get to grips with the PS3 surely Bethesda could have done.
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Old 03-09-2012, 00:46
2Dshmuplover
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I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame Bethesda, Skyrim is more ambitious than most games and on consoles very technically demanding. The PS3's lack of Ram isn't well suited to these huge open world games. At least they've been honest about it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 00:52
CJClarke
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I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame Bethesda, Skyrim is more ambitious than most games and on consoles very technically demanding. The PS3's lack of Ram isn't well suited to these huge open world games. At least they've been honest about it.
Exactly, i'm pretty sure that PS3 players wouldn't appreciate buying Dawnguard in a "broken" state and finding it almost unplayable after spending their hard earned cash on it. I know i wouldn't.

It's a shame that PS3 players might never get to play it, but at least they're not releasing it in a sub-standard state and ripping people off.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:27
Ash_735
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Yet it's only Bethesda Open World Games that have these MAJOR problems, every other developer can get around it. It's easy to say the current gen consoles are now starting to lag behind, but hell, Developers who put the effort in get it right back in how their games look and perform, just look at the recent revealed MGS: Ground Zeroes!
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:31
Conroy
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The blame should be on Bethesda as it's their engine that's running the game. If they're going to develop for a platform then the engine should be suitable for the hardware that it's going to be used on.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:40
2Dshmuplover
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Yet it's only Bethesda Open World Games that have these MAJOR problems, every other developer can get around it. It's easy to say the current gen consoles are now starting to lag behind, but hell, Developers who put the effort in get it right back in how their games look and perform, just look at the recent revealed MGS: Ground Zeroes!
But Skyrim is not really like any other game. How can you compare the slight gameplay footage from MGS: Ground Zeroes to Skyrim when 1) it's not even released 2) It's running on PC and 3) it simply won't be as complex or as large as Skyrim.

The fact is Bethesda have been working directly with Sony (who know the PS3 better than anyone) in an effort to try and sort these issues but so far they can't seem to do it. You can't say they haven't tried everything and as mentioned above they at least didn't try to sell it regardless just to make a fast buck knowing it would cause some players problems.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:58
Ash_735
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No, what Skyrim is is a bloated game, does the engine REALLY need to remember exact co-ords of a book you slightly moved multiplied over every item or thing you touch? The fact is, they can use a method, it just requires a LOT of coding work around to use the hard Drive Access times and Cache to store this info on the fly instead, the PS3 allows games to do this and the Bethesda Engine could possibly be worked to support it.

The problems with Skyrim were minimized like mad when being fed from an SSD drive on the PS3, all those framerate issues went from the game playing at 5-6fps to a lot smoother 26-28fps just by changing Hard Drive. This signals a problem with how the game engine is treating the Hard Drive on the PS3 version. I won't lie, for Bethesda, it would require a complete overhaul of one side of their engine, but I just seriously doubt they give a damn enough to invest into it.

As I said earlier, Developers who put the effort, get it back. Not just a one side thing, improvements made for the PS3 version can be somewhat applied to the Xbox 360 versions to which helps even out framerate drops and screen tearing depending on the game engine. Bethesda have had more than enough chances with the PS3 to know their engine sucks on it and they've not really done anything drastic enough to improve that. How many knocks do they need? Oblivion? Fallout 3? Fallout NV? All under the Gamebryo Engine which performed worse on the PS3 on multiple levels, so what do they do for Skyrim? Make an Engine that performs even worse than those!
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:12
2Dshmuplover
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"Rimlag" was a separate issue altogether and one that has now been solved (without SSD). It's not the just the PS3 but 360 and PC too, the game is huge and has seen many glitches and bugs, which is to be expected, it comes with the territory tbh. You make it sound all so simple yet you don't really know what the problem is.

The fact is not all blame should be put on Bethesda imo, had the PS3 not had such a horrific RAM bottleneck then perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation. Bethesda have been honest and are tying to do all they can to get it running, that counts for something surely? but no I guess not. **** you Bethesda, crap coders, just can't handle the elite power of the PS3.

I'm sick of all the blame being shifted onto devs for supposedly being "lazy" and "incompetent", a reoccurring pattern for over 5 years now just because Sony decide to design a machine that's inefficient and hard to work with, unless of course you dedicate all of your resources and time to it. You see, it cuts both ways, but we wouldn't dare to criticise Sony now would we..
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:22
MartinImber
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Poor coders - haven't seen this issue with other companies, as to huge open workd - FarCry 2 managed fine, Infamous is fine, Bethesda are just useless coders.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:32
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The fact is Bethesda have been working directly with Sony (who know the PS3 better than anyone) in an effort to try and sort these issues but so far they can't seem to do it. You can't say they haven't tried everything and as mentioned above they at least didn't try to sell it regardless just to make a fast buck knowing it would cause some players problems.
Well at least they have finally asked Sony for some help, its just a shame they didn't do that awhile ago after releasing Fallout 3 broken, or maybe after releasing Fallout NV broken or even after releasing Skyrim broken. Given the state of those games on release how seriously broken must this DLC be for them to finally admit they need a little help coding for the PS3. Its a real shame they didn't come to this conclusion a long time ago.

I'm sick of all the blame being shifted onto devs for supposedly being "lazy" and "incompetent", a reoccurring pattern for over 5 years now just because Sony decide to design a machine that's inefficient and hard to work with, unless of course you dedicate all of your resources and time to it. You see, it cuts both ways, but we wouldn't dare to criticise Sony now would we..
Yes, the PS3 is a bitch to program for, luckily for PS3 owners most developers have taken the time to learn to code for the system either on their own or with the help of Sony and now most games released are on par with other versions (Or at the very least don't suffer the sort of issues games on PS3 suffered 5years ago). Games from most developers have shown steady improvement over those 5years but there are a handful of developers whose games have not improved and still suffer from the same issues. Those are the developers I would call lazy, Bethesda been one of them.
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Old 03-09-2012, 15:36
Ash_735
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I'm sick of all the blame being shifted onto devs for supposedly being "lazy" and "incompetent", a reoccurring pattern for over 5 years now just because Sony decide to design a machine that's inefficient and hard to work with, unless of course you dedicate all of your resources and time to it. You see, it cuts both ways, but we wouldn't dare to criticise Sony now would we..
But the thing is, Sony MADE the system, it's up to the DEVELOPERS to then DEVELOP on it, like you've said, it's been a major issue for Bethesda for over Five Years, don't you think that's enough time for them to realise their efforts are just crap and perhaps they should revamp the engine to also make use of the PS3 abilities?

All I'm saying, on paper, Bethesda are the only ones still crying about this and knocking out crappy ports where as most other developers have cracked down got to work and changed and altered their engines to be more dynamic.

Yes, Sony's choice of having 256MB+256MB didn't do them any favors, but hey, that's how Computers work, more than likely your GPU Memory is separate from your Main Memory and you get the option to share that when it's an emergency or a lower end model of GPU.

It's also unfortunate than RAM Prices dropped like a brick a few years after the consoles came out, but we can't really factor that can we?

If you want to blame Sony, go ahead, that's your style, but when you look at it, every other developer has got to work on it, put the time into it, put the effort into it, and came out with engines that perform great on the PS3 with benefits that carried over to the Xbox 360 versions to. Bethesda are not one of these developers.

As I already said, Skyrim was a bug fest on all platforms, weird enough the platform with the least amount of bugs and glitches was the Xbox 360 version, which oddly enough also has timed exclusive DLC, yet Bethesda still insist that the Xbox 360 version is a port whilst the PC version was the lead.
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Old 03-09-2012, 15:58
Doomy
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I have done my time developing computer games, and this issue is the responsibility of Bethesda. Not the coders themselves, but the planners. You start off with a core design of the software that fits within the limitation of each of the platforms, leaving a good few % (10-20) to allow for wriggle room.

Dawnguard was either not included in this plan (and they must have planned for SOMETHING) or their understanding of the PS3 was not up to scratch. It isnt that Dawnguard is anything special. A couple of new locations, a few extra scripts and some new animation. If that sort of DLC wasn't expected, I dont know what they did expect it to be.

I seriously doubt we will ever see Dawnguard, we might if there is a smart coders who finds a serious improvement somewhere. They would not be saying the things they are unless they had virtually given up. Cross you fingers that the wacky-backy has the desired effect on one of the poor engine grunts, and he pulls off a piece of genius (it has been know to occur)
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Old 03-09-2012, 23:05
2Dshmuplover
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Poor coders - haven't seen this issue with other companies, as to huge open workd - FarCry 2 managed fine, Infamous is fine, Bethesda are just useless coders.
Sorry but Skyrim is nothing like those games and vastly more complex. Far Cry 2 was actually quite a poor port on PS3 anyway. They're not useless coders at all, you don't have a clue.
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Old 03-09-2012, 23:18
2Dshmuplover
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But the thing is, Sony MADE the system, it's up to the DEVELOPERS to then DEVELOP on it, like you've said, it's been a major issue for Bethesda for over Five Years, don't you think that's enough time for them to realise their efforts are just crap and perhaps they should revamp the engine to also make use of the PS3 abilities?

All I'm saying, on paper, Bethesda are the only ones still crying about this and knocking out crappy ports where as most other developers have cracked down got to work and changed and altered their engines to be more dynamic.

Yes, Sony's choice of having 256MB+256MB didn't do them any favors, but hey, that's how Computers work, more than likely your GPU Memory is separate from your Main Memory and you get the option to share that when it's an emergency or a lower end model of GPU.

It's also unfortunate than RAM Prices dropped like a brick a few years after the consoles came out, but we can't really factor that can we?

If you want to blame Sony, go ahead, that's your style, but when you look at it, every other developer has got to work on it, put the time into it, put the effort into it, and came out with engines that perform great on the PS3 with benefits that carried over to the Xbox 360 versions to. Bethesda are not one of these developers.

As I already said, Skyrim was a bug fest on all platforms, weird enough the platform with the least amount of bugs and glitches was the Xbox 360 version, which oddly enough also has timed exclusive DLC, yet Bethesda still insist that the Xbox 360 version is a port whilst the PC version was the lead.

I understand what you're getting at but Skyrim is not really like any other game, even compared to past Bethesda open world games. It's far more ambitious and while I'm not suggesting they should be applauded for the bugs and problems they should still to a certain degree be admired for having such ambition, even if the tech is struggling with delivering their vision.

I couldn't even play Skyrim on 360 for the first few weeks due to the horrible texture bug, I can't say I was surprised, everyone suffered so I'm not just having a go at the PS3. But I don't think they should compromise their game for the sake of the PS3. I think it's better that it came out in it's current state than if it had been PC/360 exclusive.
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Old 03-09-2012, 23:21
2Dshmuplover
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It isnt that Dawnguard is anything special. A couple of new locations, a few extra scripts and some new animation. If that sort of DLC wasn't expected, I dont know what they did expect it to be.
As no-one knows what the problem is outside of Bethesda we can only guess but Dawnguard does allow you to traverse across the land at high speed if you fly as the Vampire which might cause some streaming issues? It's one of the only significant changes I noticed within the DLC that may effect the PS3 version.
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Old 04-09-2012, 16:07
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This sort of thing really makes me worry about Dishonoured, which looks awesome but could end up being awful on PS3 given Bethesda's record.
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Old 04-09-2012, 16:52
Conroy
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This sort of thing really makes me worry about Dishonoured, which looks awesome but could end up being awful on PS3 given Bethesda's record.
Bethesda are publishing not developing the game, however it is using Unreal Engine 3 which doesn't excite me either.

There are only a few UE3 games that have really stood out (visually) on the PS3. All in all I think it's a poor engine which takes little advantage of the PS3 architecture (Epic only added support for MLAA a few months ago) and wish other developers like Valve (Source Engine), Visceral Games (Visceral Engine), Avalanche Studios (Avalanche Engine 2.0), Criterion Games (Renderware & Chameleon) and Radical Entertainment (Titanium 2.0) would license their engines out like Crytek and Epic.

The Source Engine might actually be free (not sure if the SDK can be used to make commercial games).
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Old 04-09-2012, 17:33
MartinImber
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Sorry but Skyrim is nothing like those games and vastly more complex. Far Cry 2 was actually quite a poor port on PS3 anyway. They're not useless coders at all, you don't have a clue.
I do have a clue - you are a known hater on PS3.

I work with computers for a living, you work around restrictions.

If you cannot do something in a particular way you change it to do it anoher way.

Far Cry 2 looks no worse than Skyrim. And it covers 50km2
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Old 04-09-2012, 18:51
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"Rimlag" was a separate issue altogether and one that has now been solved (without SSD). It's not the just the PS3 but 360 and PC too, the game is huge and has seen many glitches and bugs, which is to be expected, it comes with the territory tbh. You make it sound all so simple yet you don't really know what the problem is.
Minor glitches and bugs, sure.

Major game-breaking ones? No excuse.

I am unable to complete the Companions questline because I had already cleared the dungeon a later mission takes place in, resulting in the town of Whiterun and all the Companions being in a permanent state of mourning, unable to trigger the next mission.

That is simply BAD CODING. Bethesda have used a formula similar to:

IF Silver Hand are in the cave, start the next mission.

They have not added in a very simple addition:

IF Silver Hand are not in cave, respawn them and start the next mission.

Lazy programming. Great game, lots of imagination and vast in scope, but it is badly programmed, not just on PS3 but on every format.
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Old 05-09-2012, 00:13
2Dshmuplover
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Bethesda are publishing not developing the game, however it is using Unreal Engine 3 which doesn't excite me either.

There are only a few UE3 games that have really stood out (visually) on the PS3. All in all I think it's a poor engine which takes little advantage of the PS3 architecture (Epic only added support for MLAA a few months ago) and wish other developers like Valve (Source Engine), Visceral Games (Visceral Engine), Avalanche Studios (Avalanche Engine 2.0), Criterion Games (Renderware & Chameleon) and Radical Entertainment (Titanium 2.0) would license their engines out like Crytek and Epic.

The Source Engine might actually be free (not sure if the SDK can be used to make commercial games).
UE3 is one of the best engines this gen. Its shocking how many great games it's powered and how versatile the engine is.
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Old 05-09-2012, 00:16
2Dshmuplover
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I do have a clue - you are a known hater on PS3.

I work with computers for a living, you work around restrictions.

If you cannot do something in a particular way you change it to do it anoher way.

Far Cry 2 looks no worse than Skyrim. And it covers 50km2
I'm a known hater of PS3 lol! okkk
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:18
Gormond
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I'm a known hater of PS3 lol! okkk
Your services don't mention PS3 yet they mention Wii and 360 so your not exactly their biggest fan...
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:31
Conroy
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UE3 is one of the best engines this gen. Its shocking how many great games it's powered and how versatile the engine is.
It's good for PC and works quite favourably for the 360 but Epic haven't done much to tailor the engine to take advantage of the PS3. As I mentioned earlier, they only added MLAA support to the engine a few months ago yet UE3 games were released with FXAA in the first 6 months of 2011 so support was added quite possibly back in 2010.

There are still texture streaming issues with the engine (evident on both PS3 and 360), although some developers handle it better than others. I think one of the major problems is that Epic themselves have only developed one game on the PS3 this generation (UT3) and it doesn't look like they will be developing another and I'm not sure what direct impact People Can Fly have with the engine.
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