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Old 11-11-2012, 16:47
Shop Girl
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About that doorstep conversation -- it really seems to me another example of Louisa taking the initiative in the relationship and trying to make a connection with DM, and the wish to consult him about how much alcohol intake is too much for someone with a drinking problem is more or less a rationalization for her being there. DM of course, being unable to recognize this ploy for what it is, (and few men would,I think, apologies to Robspace) frustrates her once again. She lashes out, he stomps off. Goodness, I hope S6 shows them learning how to deal with each other better!
I still say that the direction this conversation took had a lot to do with Martin's hurt feelings over Danny. He started the morning hearing Danny's voice on his radio and was annoyed by it (called him a Tosser out loud). After a rough day with Julie's first visit, smelly Mr Cooke (twice!) and Caroline, he runs into Danny on his way to the grocers and then sees the way Louisa greets him and is dismayed to see how close they appear. On the way out of the shop there they are again - and there is Mark with the pretty girl in his car.

I think that Louisa showing up on his doorstep is only minutes later because he is throwing the dog out (dog rushed by as he was coming in the door with his shopping?). So he seems to be a bit fragile as he begins the conversation. I think he looks a bit petulant as he ends the conversation by the way he walks away with his hands behind his back.
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Old 11-11-2012, 16:55
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I still say that the direction this conversation took had a lot to do with Martin's hurt feelings over Danny. He started the morning hearing Danny's voice on his radio and was annoyed by it (called him a Tosser out loud). After a rough day with Julie's first visit, smelly Mr Cooke (twice!) and Caroline, he runs into Danny on his way to the grocers and then sees the way Louisa greets him and is dismayed to see how close they appear. On the way out of the shop there they are again - and there is Mark with the pretty girl in his car.

I think that Louisa showing up on his doorstep is only minutes later because he is throwing the dog out (dog rushed by as he was coming in the door with his shopping?). So he seems to be a bit fragile as he begins the conversation. I think he looks a bit petulant as he ends the conversation by the way he walks away with his hands behind his back.
Yes, once again the hidden agenda (hurt/jealous feelings on his part, easily frustrated desire to connect on her part) get in the way of having a rational conversation.

We will see this hurt feelings/jealousy show up at the beginning of the next episode, imo, in which he is extremely snarly, clearly still smarting.

Louisa does this coming to the doorstep thing fairly often -- whenever he seems to withdraw or have been hurt she finds some excuse to stop by to take the temperature or make contact with him again.
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Old 11-11-2012, 20:11
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Thanks, NewPark!

One other medical point--with someone in diabetic ketoacidosis, you would inject insulin intramuscularly, not sub-Q. DM says he's injecting Sub-Q but then apparently injects into the top of her shoulder blade which would be more IM. I know that no one else cares about this, so just skip over and move on! There are much more interesting comments to read!

My MD wife made the same comment. Sub-Q versus IM ... But is a TV show, after all.
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Old 11-11-2012, 20:28
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I still say that the direction this conversation took had a lot to do with Martin's hurt feelings over Danny. He started the morning hearing Danny's voice on his radio and was annoyed by it (called him a Tosser out loud). After a rough day with Julie's first visit, smelly Mr Cooke (twice!) and Caroline, he runs into Danny on his way to the grocers and then sees the way Louisa greets him and is dismayed to see how close they appear. On the way out of the shop there they are again - and there is Mark with the pretty girl in his car.

I think that Louisa showing up on his doorstep is only minutes later because he is throwing the dog out (dog rushed by as he was coming in the door with his shopping?). So he seems to be a bit fragile as he begins the conversation. I think he looks a bit petulant as he ends the conversation by the way he walks away with his hands behind his back.
Well, yes and no, I think. Yes, DM is hurt over and over seeing Danny and her together. But, in this conversation he is giving very good advice right off. Don't take your drinking friend out for a drink, first off. LG agrees with that but then says, essentially, nonetheless if they do go out drinking what's the limit for Caroline to drink? That is a really stupid question. DM also suggests helping Caroline is not going to work as she doesn't want help with her drinking and we see that is 100% accurate advice, too.

Remember, she came for clinical advice, and he was giving her that. We know he can't see other reasons, so he is in doctor mode on the doorstep and emotionally inside he is hurt. But, she doesn't help with his pain, she doesn't soften her time with Danny, she is really just trying to connect with Martin when Martin is literally seeing her connect with Danny. That is putting Martin in an unfair situation. LG is trying to have everything her way--test things with Danny but also test things with Martin. Martin's psychology cannot go along with that, and frankly, neither can Danny's.

What we also fail to realize in this situation is that LG always becomes nastily personal, twisting the conversation to find blame with Martin and his relations with his patients (and perhaps with others like herself). How helpful is that? It's the last straw for Martin who stalks off.

LG started off in the wrong way, ignored Martin's advice, attacked him, and then he stalks off. Neither were able to converse as mentally, emotionally healthy adults, since neither of them are one!
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Old 11-11-2012, 20:29
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Thanks, NewPark!

One other medical point--with someone in diabetic ketoacidosis, you would inject insulin intramuscularly, not sub-Q. DM says he's injecting Sub-Q but then apparently injects into the top of her shoulder blade which would be more IM. I know that no one else cares about this, so just skip over and move on! There are much more interesting comments to read!

My MD wife made the same comment. Sub-Q versus IM ... But is a TV show, after all.
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Old 11-11-2012, 22:45
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Well, yes and no, I think. Yes, DM is hurt over and over seeing Danny and her together. But, in this conversation he is giving very good advice right off. Don't take your drinking friend out for a drink, first off. LG agrees with that but then says, essentially, nonetheless if they do go out drinking what's the limit for Caroline to drink? That is a really stupid question. DM also suggests helping Caroline is not going to work as she doesn't want help with her drinking and we see that is 100% accurate advice, too.

Remember, she came for clinical advice, and he was giving her that. We know he can't see other reasons, so he is in doctor mode on the doorstep and emotionally inside he is hurt. But, she doesn't help with his pain, she doesn't soften her time with Danny, she is really just trying to connect with Martin when Martin is literally seeing her connect with Danny. That is putting Martin in an unfair situation. LG is trying to have everything her way--test things with Danny but also test things with Martin. Martin's psychology cannot go along with that, and frankly, neither can Danny's.

What we also fail to realize in this situation is that LG always becomes nastily personal, twisting the conversation to find blame with Martin and his relations with his patients (and perhaps with others like herself). How helpful is that? It's the last straw for Martin who stalks off.

LG started off in the wrong way, ignored Martin's advice, attacked him, and then he stalks off. Neither were able to converse as mentally, emotionally healthy adults, since neither of them are one!
I watched this conversation again to see where it went off the rails. Although I think Louisa was genuinely concerned about Caroline, her approach to Martin about it seems to me to have been more or less a pretext to try to have a reassuring conversation with him after he had seen her with Danny. She knows he doesn't like it and she wants to let him know she's still making an effort to connect with him.

He did respond correctly and rationally. Most people with substance abuse problems don't want advice, friendly or otherwise about their drinking. Louisa then suggested to him -- not in these words -- that if he had handled her with more sensitivity, maybe she would have listened. (This is part of the general program, it seems, to call attention to his lack of sensitivity, which we'll see again in next episode with AJ. ) Since he is particularly thin-skinned on this point and always very reactive when the way he practices medicine is criticized by Louisa, this was a foolish upping of the ante on Louisa's part, and things went downhill from there. But I don't think i would call it nasty. Just part of Louisa's general thinking that she knows best how to handle the people of PortWenn and it's up to her to convey this to Martin.
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Old 11-11-2012, 23:54
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My MD wife made the same comment. Sub-Q versus IM ... But is a TV show, after all.
You mean, I can't watch the show for my Continuing Medical Education requirements???
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Old 11-11-2012, 23:58
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Hopefully IAC is a success, Ant & Dec are still likeable and they dont rely on creating dramas like BB and TXF
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Old 12-11-2012, 00:07
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I watched this conversation again to see where it went off the rails. Although I think Louisa was genuinely concerned about Caroline, her approach to Martin about it seems to me to have been more or less a pretext to try to have a reassuring conversation with him after he had seen her with Danny. She knows he doesn't like it and she wants to let him know she's still making an effort to connect with him.

He did respond correctly and rationally. Most people with substance abuse problems don't want advice, friendly or otherwise about their drinking. Louisa then suggested to him -- not in these words -- that if he had handled her with more sensitivity, maybe she would have listened. (This is part of the general program, it seems, to call attention to his lack of sensitivity, which we'll see again in next episode with AJ. ) Since he is particularly thin-skinned on this point and always very reactive when the way he practices medicine is criticized by Louisa, this was a foolish upping of the ante on Louisa's part, and things went downhill from there. But I don't think i would call it nasty. Just part of Louisa's general thinking that she knows best how to handle the people of PortWenn and it's up to her to convey this to Martin.
I find it so interesting to watch LG. She really is a decent person, and she really does care. But, she blithers about in her own way, trying to say and do the right thing and like DM, she can stumble about blindly, too. She "seems" to be, at the start, the normal, healthy villager, but we see clearly via Season 2 that she comes with her own luggage. Must be a wonderful character to portray given LG has so many levels.

I call it nasty because, well, it was to me. I simply don't feel it is right or pleasant to watch LG to criticize DM personally when her ideas of how something should exactly play out are stymied, and she is handling unspoken emotions in an offensive manner. But, she sure does know how to push his buttons--in that scene she refuses to accept his lucid advice for Caroline, does not reassure him she is not serious with Danny, and then criticizes his manner of seeing patients. Yup, those are DM's buttons! Watch him stalk off!

I also wonder how well does LG do with her meeting with Caroline? Is she sensitive to Caroline's needs? Like others, she assumes Caroline is drinking too much, and rather bluntly orders the water which is, as we can see from Caroline's POV, an insult. Wouldn't a good friend simply start off asking, as I think Caroline hoped, "What's been going on? How are you doing?", and let Caroline fill in the blanks.

You can see that LG is really trying hard, but sometimes her interactions with others really falls flat. Luckily, as I said, since LG is so decent, she goes to Caroline's house to check on her, and their friendship is preserved at the end. Really a fascinating character.
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Old 12-11-2012, 00:58
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Well, I think we know what MC was doing in New Orleans -- the Budweiser Clydesdales were on show -- how could he resist, given Ronnie and Bruce at home?

(I think I know way too much about this man.)
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:54
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Got S2 done. These are fun, but they do take a bit of time

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:00
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Well, I think we know what MC was doing in New Orleans -- the Budweiser Clydesdales were on show -- how could he resist, given Ronnie and Bruce at home?

(I think I know way too much about this man.)
He could have gone to Grant Farm in St. Louis, the home of the Clydesdales. I suspect the weather is better in NO.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:04
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.....Just part of Louisa's general thinking that she knows best how to handle the people of PortWenn and it's up to her to convey this to Martin.
Nice insight - I think this might indeed be LG's motivation.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:30
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(I think I know way too much about this man.)
You say that like it's a bad thing....
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:32
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In case any of you have been following, I just posted the next chapter of my fanfic.....http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8120679/...ormative-Years
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:56
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s2 ep 5 "Always on My Mind"
Director: Ben Bolt
Writer: Richard Stoneman

Martin examines Helen Pratt, but she collapses and dies. Her husband, Phil, is angry with the doctor and blames him for his wife's death. A feud develops between Phil and Helen's long-time friend Joan after Phil becomes convinced that Joan knew something secret about him. Joan encourages Martin to explain the circumstances of Helen's death to Phil, having previously been extremely cold and insensitive following her death. Pauline begins training to become a member of the lifeboat crew, flirting with her instructor, Ross, in the process, causing Al to become jealous.

I like this episode so I don't hate Richard Stoneman's writing

I hadn't realised that Pauline had always been interested in blood - especially if it is spurting out everywhere!

This ep really shows how the writers believe that women are incomprehensible to men. Pauline, Julie, LG and Helen - one of their men understand what they are trying to show interest in them!

Also lots of insights into DM:
He can't tolerate fools (or dogs) or iffy mobile phone reception.
He is annoyed at villagers who don't thank him - especially when he goes to the trouble to make a house call. But Mrs Pratt did thank him first off she said: It is good of you to come! So I don't know why that didn't count to him.
He doesn't see death as something terrible to be sad about. Just a fact of life. This may explain some of his behaviour when AJ died?

Love the way Bert answers the phone in the surgery while DM is yelling at Pauline
Actually I really like Pauline in this episode.

LG and DM almost got together in the pub!! If it hadn't been for the OCD patient....
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:58
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Quotes didn't work, sorry.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:00
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(I think I know way too much about this man.)
You say that like it's a bad thing....

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Old 12-11-2012, 14:49
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There are three of them and I don't know what conclusion we are supposed to draw --

Al, Pauline and Ross -- Pauline sends Ross packing after extracting what she needs from him and also using him to make Al jealous.

Mr. and Mrs. Pratt and Tony, the truck driver. Guilt over having told his wife about his affair, and thereby possibly causing her to die of shock (in his view) causes Phil Pratt to "act out" all over the place.

And, Danny, Louisa and Martin. Martin is jealous, and still deeply smarting from having seen Louisa and Danny together in the hospital, presumably on intimate terms, in the last scene of "Aromatherapy."

So, the very first scene we see him snarling at a patient, whose house he is leaving. When he goes to the school on "emergencies" -- twice -- he is very rude to Louisa. She is quite brave to confront him and ask him to sit down with her and sort things out, so they can stop having "stupid, bad-tempered rows."

And we have Aunt Joan telling him he hasn't a sensitive bone in his body and that people need more from him than his business-like approach -- sympathy, not a death certificate coldly and calmly filled out. Louisa tells him this too, in their schoolyard conversation -- the same thing she has essentially told him in the doorstep conversation of Aromatherapy.

Martin continues to very dismissive of the need for a "bedside manner." Mona can probably speak to the difficulty of being as tough-minded and clinical as a treating professional needs to be, while at the same time conveying empathy and a little human warmth. I think AJ and Louisa are right -- he needs a better balance.

The story of Julie and Mark continues to be nicely set up for the finale in E8.

Julie is deceptive, Pauline is deceptive, Phil is deceptive -- only Louisa seems to be fairly straightforward here.
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Old 12-11-2012, 15:06
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Thanks, NewPark!

I see your point of view, DCcurlygirl. I suppose I am focusing too much on the story line logic. I mean, if he puts the bag down in the living room and then goes to the loo, one would focus the smell more on the bag, and less on him, you would think. Once Mr. Cook leaves it seems his odor leaves the surgery, though. Also, it is odd that he apparently never opened the bag until he was looking for some matches, considering poor Freddie died WEEKS ago.

One other medical point--with someone in diabetic ketoacidosis, you would inject insulin intramuscularly, not sub-Q. DM says he's injecting Sub-Q but then apparently injects into the top of her shoulder blade which would be more IM. I know that no one else cares about this, so just skip over and move on! There are much more interesting comments to read!
The helpful medical information you've provided reminds me of something else I've been meaning to ask. When DM wants to examine Caroline's mouth, he tells her thrush can also live in the mouth (or something along those lines). Also? When I look up thrush online, it's defined as an oral yeast infection that can occasionally, among people with weakened immune systems, spread to other parts of the body. Primarily, though, it's an oral infection. So why did DM's oral exam seem to be secondary and why did he use the word "also"?

Back to smelly, old Mr. Cook. You aren't the only one to wonder why no one realized the smell came from the bag. I can understand why DM and Pauline didn't realize it. He kept clutching the bag to his chest like he was protecting gold throughout his visits to the surgery. But it seems odd to me that the social services ladies didn't have an opportunity to discover that the smell, or at least the worst of it, came from the bag considering that they were in his home, bathed him, clipped his toenails, cleaned the house, washed his clothes and linens, etc. I guess we're to assume he kept the bag with him everywhere, including in the bathroom, and I suppose in a small room like a bathroom maybe they couldn't pinpoint the origin because the odor was so overwhelming. I guess.

Oh, well. Sometimes we have to gloss over specifics to go with the plot. And I did enjoy this plot. The first time I saw this ep it didn't occur to me that dead Freddie could be in the bag. I was completely surprised.
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Old 12-11-2012, 16:11
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There are three of them and I don't know what conclusion we are supposed to draw --

Al, Pauline and Ross -- Pauline sends Ross packing after extracting what she needs from him and also using him to make Al jealous.

Mr. and Mrs. Pratt and Tony, the truck driver. Guilt over having told his wife about his affair, and thereby possibly causing her to die of shock (in his view) causes Phil Pratt to "act out" all over the place.

And, Danny, Louisa and Martin. Martin is jealous, and still deeply smarting from having seen Louisa and Danny together in the hospital, presumably on intimate terms, in the last scene of "Aromatherapy."

So, the very first scene we see him snarling at a patient, whose house he is leaving. When he goes to the school on "emergencies" -- twice -- he is very rude to Louisa. She is quite brave to confront him and ask him to sit down with her and sort things out, so they can stop having "stupid, bad-tempered rows."

And we have Aunt Joan telling him he hasn't a sensitive bone in his body and that people need more from him than his business-like approach -- sympathy, not a death certificate coldly and calmly filled out. Louisa tells him this too, in their schoolyard conversation -- the same thing she has essentially told him in the doorstep conversation of Aromatherapy.

Martin continues to very dismissive of the need for a "bedside manner." Mona can probably speak to the difficulty of being as tough-minded and clinical as a treating professional needs to be, while at the same time conveying empathy and a little human warmth. I think AJ and Louisa are right -- he needs a better balance.

The story of Julie and Mark continues to be nicely set up for the finale in E8.

Julie is deceptive, Pauline is deceptive, Phil is deceptive -- only Louisa seems to be fairly straightforward here.
When Al claimed he wasn't jealous, Pauline basically explained her motivation. She wanted to know if Al was still waiting for Elaine to return. Her ploy worked. It's too bad, but quite realistic, that sometimes women have to play strategic little games to get men to open up or make commitments.

Right, Phil Pratt does "act out" and it's all because of guilt. Deep down, he thinks he's responsible for his wife's death, so he tries to shift the blame to Martin. He believes his wife confided his secret to AJ, so he goes waaaaay astray in his treatment of her. Slashing tires, throwing a teacup through her window, shooting off his gun, spraying chemicals. He's completely irrational. Which brings me to something I found surprising. We've seen DM show fear when confronted by a person he considers dangerous, even when confronted by Mr. Flint, who is about a head shorter than him. But when Phil Pratt comes to the surgery to threaten him, Pratt gets in his face, so to speak (they look to be the same height), and Doc doesn't even flinch. Is this because the incident takes place on his turf where he's in control? Is it because Pratt is drunk and DM therefore believes he can handle him?

There's one event in this episode that I've never completely understood. When we first encounter Tony, he's using his truck to threaten Joan. He stays on her tail and almost runs her off the road. Later, when we meet him at the scene of Phil's accident, he turns out to be quite a decent person. What was his motivation in terrifying Joan on the road? Had Phil Pratt shared his erroneous suspicion that his late wife confided in Joan and she was sitting in judgement of them? Even if that's the case, how did Tony know that was Joan on the road? They seem to be strangers to each other.

Yes, Martin is a mess in this episode. He's extra angry and rude (brusque?) to almost everyone, but when we see him with Louisa, he just radiates anger. It's too bad he can't simply tell her what's wrong, that this is his way of reacting to pain and jealousy. But if he did, he wouldn't be our Doc. Their conversation in the schoolyard is one of my favorites. They're both generally clueless whenever they try to talk, but in this case they admit it. "What are we talking about? Are we talking about...? What are we talking about?" Love it. It's one of the most honest conversations they've had.

One last thing, and you all know I do love our Doc and I've in some cases defended him when he's been rude and gruff, but, oh, holy cow, whenever I see that scene in which OCD teacher shows up at the surgery, I find myself talking to the TV. Phone, Martin, telephone, mobile phone, any phone, call Louisa, don't just not show up, CALL HER!
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Old 12-11-2012, 20:12
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Got S2 done. These are fun, but they do take a bit of time

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These are really fun! I noticed that in one of the S2 E1 screenshots, Gremlin, holding a stick in his mouth, looks like he's smiling. Love your caption on S2 E6, featuring Martin's horrible parents, "No Dog! Can you blame him?"

One little thing I noticed. Terry Glasson didn't have a gunshot wound. He had a knife wound.

Thanks again for doing these for us.
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Old 12-11-2012, 20:37
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New chapter of Fanning the Flames is now loading: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7808596/...ing-the-Flames
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Old 12-11-2012, 21:35
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These are really fun! I noticed that in one of the S2 E1 screenshots, Gremlin, holding a stick in his mouth, looks like he's smiling. Love your caption on S2 E6, featuring Martin's horrible parents, "No Dog! Can you blame him?"

One little thing I noticed. Terry Glasson didn't have a gunshot wound. He had a knife wound.

Thanks again for doing these for us.
Yikes! You are correct! I will fix that when I get home.

Loved your comment about shouting at the television for Martin to call Louisa to say he couldn't make it to the pub. I do the same thing every time I watch it. When she calls him on it in the next episode, he responds, "Yes". I think we have determined this is his way of responding when he has learned a new social lesson.

I also noticed that it was 5 minutes to the hour when he was getting ready to leave. Tricia had to walk through his door at the hour (her watch must have been a little fast) so this means that he was leaving a the very last moment to meet Louisa while she was already there having gotten there early.

I wonder if this has some significance? Was Louisa more eager than Martin for this "talk"? Or was Martin going to leave at just the right time to be at the pub at the exact appointed time because he is so punctual?
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Old 13-11-2012, 00:18
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The helpful medical information you've provided reminds me of something else I've been meaning to ask. When DM wants to examine Caroline's mouth, he tells her thrush can also live in the mouth (or something along those lines). Also? When I look up thrush online, it's defined as an oral yeast infection that can occasionally, among people with weakened immune systems, spread to other parts of the body. Primarily, though, it's an oral infection. So why did DM's oral exam seem to be secondary and why did he use the word "also"?
Yes, Biffpup, good medical catch. I didn't want to comment on every medical oddity in this show, but thrush is just an oral manifestation of a fungal overgrowth (it may also go down the esophagus in very immunocompromised patients). So, DM saying that thrush can also live in the mouth is like saying urine can also be found in the bladder.
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