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A to Z of pet names? (Part 5)


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Old 14-11-2014, 14:08
cal4751
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-families.html

Just saw this on the news. So upsetting.
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Old 14-11-2014, 14:44
radioanorak
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Please, please do NOT BUY puppies.
From anyone.
Not a pet shop.Because you wont know the source.
Or breaders.They will charge you the earth.
There is no need.
Just go to your local rescue centre.
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Old 14-11-2014, 15:11
Si_Crewe
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Please, please do NOT BUY puppies.
From anyone.
Not a pet shop.Because you wont know the source.
Or breaders.They will charge you the earth.
There is no need.
Just go to your local rescue centre.
Nonsense.

It's awful that there are dogs stuck in rescue centres but we should reserve our criticism for the people who've put them there rather than being critical of those who want to keep a particular type of dog as a pet.
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Old 14-11-2014, 15:49
Nilrem
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Nonsense.

It's awful that there are dogs stuck in rescue centres but we should reserve our criticism for the people who've put them there rather than being critical of those who want to keep a particular type of dog as a pet.
Well put.

We lost our dog recently, but when we get another we'll probably get it from a family who have a particular breed because we want a specific type (so it can be comfortable with our lifestyle/health conditions).
Last time we struck it lucky and it was an accidental breeding of the dogs belonging to a member of staff at a local School.

What we won't do if get one any time near christmas for obvious reasons*, as I said to the family the other day the chances of a puppy farmed or similar dog is likely to be much higher near christmas.


*And it gives us time to puppy proof the garden again (our old mutt hadn't tried to get out of the garden in years)..
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:55
Muze
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It's scary pups being brought over so young, carrying disease.

Anyone buying from a breeder must must must check out that breeder, the pup's parents and relevant health tests.

Rescues are not for everyone, most rehoming centres have strict criteria that not everyone can fulfill.
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Old 14-11-2014, 19:50
StressMonkey
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Please, please do NOT BUY puppies.
From anyone.
Not a pet shop.Because you wont know the source.
Or breaders.They will charge you the earth.
There is no need.
Just go to your local rescue centre.
When the time is right to get another dog if the right one is in Rescue then great. If not then I would go to a good breeder. 'Charging the earth' isn't the issue - whether they health test the parents, worm & vet check and socialise the puppies is worth the extra for a good breeder. Being able to see pups with mum and contact the sire's owners is important.

At the moment I am heavily leaning towards a Curly Coated Retriever so it's unlikely to be a rescue, especially as the whole CCRs being a bit difficult to train makes me want a puppy.

BYBs on the other hand, same as puppy farms, should be avoided at all costs. They generally charge as much - if not more - for poorly bred, worm filled, under socialised puppys as bad as the ones in the article.
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Old 14-11-2014, 22:04
Hogzilla
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I just got a pup from rescue - but easy for me as the breeds I like are bull terriers and staffy or staffy cross puppies are probably the commonest ones they get.

Have had dogs from backstreet breeders in the past (years ago before anyone really had the phrase for it or the concept it was a 'bad' thing). And even from backstreet breeders saw the mum and sometimes dad too. Have also had dogs from top breeders - the sort that rarely need to sell to the public, but just sell to other show people. And only jumped their several year long waiting list because I used to work for another well known person in the breed.

I have had more than one person say to me, when they have bought a dog and know I used to work in kennels, say "My Fifi has a pedigree as long as my arm!" Well of course she does. They're printed forms and any pedigree dog will reasonably be traceable for many more generations than represented there. It means nothing. Unless YOUR dog is the one with the red "Champion" next to its name, it's fairly pointless. Well totally pointless for a pet. And puppies aren't champions. But breeders use these (and "KC reg" which also means nothing) as selling points.

Truth is if the breeder is "good" they are breeding show quality dogs and selling the ones not upto par as pets - which is fine, but the bottom line is whilst they don't want a dog that will bite a judge, they don't care a hoot about temperament - they want a show winner. One that conforms to the breed standard. If they say otherwise... they're lying.

Can tell you this - there is no such thing as a 'good' breeder from a pet buyer's point of view. They don't socialise dogs - let it hang around with mum and a few housedogs and call that socialisation. But the point of socialisation is to take pups out and about, expose them to different situations, people, dogs, other animals.

Of the three - backstreet breeders, top ("good") breeders and a rescue - the rescue is by far my best experience of pup buying. I have never known a breeder to homecheck, for example. Or to ask really probing questions. Or give a lifetime's access to advice from qualified behaviourists etc like rescues can.

They pride themselves they have good instinct about people - but do they?

If people want a certain breed, demand is there, sadly. And who is anyone to say anyone else can or can't have the breed of their choice? I know I'm lucky that the breed of dog I love is always going to be in rescue - because they have been overbred and used as status dogs by idiots who clearly know nothing of the breed.

We have to find a way to end puppy farms (what's the betting they're full of pugs and labrodoodles, and whatever is the dog du jour right now?)

That said, I wish rescues weren't full of bull breeds. It is a tragedy for the dogs I love.

Having gone down all three routes, so able to compare them directly, I will definitely only go down the rescue route from now on.

I would question the concept that there are 'good' breeders - or that customers can judge really. (As I say I have bought pups and met both parents and at the end of the day, that doesn't tell you a lot). Breeders argue they do it for the love of it as it's unprofitable. I'm not entirely convinced.

We need to end backstreet breeding - any dog breeding that isn't licensed, and regulated, has no place. Puppy farms fill a demand - so maybe we need to educated people to demand something else.

I do think many folk genuinely don't know their dog is even from a puppy farm. I've heard of people going to these places, and the pup being brought out to them so they don't see the battery farm conditions inside. Have also heard of Welsh puppy farm breeders meeting people halfway at motorway service stations to cover the fact they're puppy farmers. Others advertise on Gumtree and similar sites and people think they are buying a dog from a one-off litter or small breeder, raised in the home.

We need to stop farmers breeding the odd litter of labs and selling them over the farm gate to randomers, as well. They often grow up in a dank corner of a barn then are sold with assurances they have "good temperaments" or have grown up with a family.

We need to make it harder to own a dog, and also far, far harder to breed them. I don't get why puppy farms can't be legislated against.
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Old 15-11-2014, 01:12
CollieWobbles
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Please, please do NOT BUY puppies.
From anyone.
Not a pet shop.Because you wont know the source.
Or breaders.They will charge you the earth.
There is no need.
Just go to your local rescue centre.
Disagree, by all means never buy from a pet shop, but there is no reason at all not to buy from a good breeder. They will not charge you the earth, they charge a price that is reasonable for the time, money and emotional investment they have put into breeding that puppy. They will be able to match you to a suitable pup and offer you help, advice and backup should you need it. Rescues are good, but their not the be all and end all nor are they for everyone. In fact some can be ridiculously strict with their stringent rules that some really good owners would be passed up on simply because they don't cross all the 't's' and dot all the 'i's'. If you want a specific breed your unlikely to find one in a shelter, and some people want the choice of a healthy well reared puppy from a sound good background. And whilst some shelters are really great, some are most definitely not, I know someone who got a dog from a shelter who said it was fine, the dog was attacking and biting everyone in the house without warning, and when they tried to contact the shelter they told them it was tough, they've didn't want the dog back and refused to answer any other calls. This shelter had passed on an extremely unpredictable volatile aggressive dog to a family with children and point blank refused to help or let it be returned. There's good and bad in rescues as there is in breeders, you have to do your homework and find the good ones. When you consider a dog will be be with you for up to 15 years, its worthwhile putting in the effort to look around and get off to the best start.

I just got a pup from rescue - but easy for me as the breeds I like are bull terriers and staffy or staffy cross puppies are probably the commonest ones they get.

Have had dogs from backstreet breeders in the past (years ago before anyone really had the phrase for it or the concept it was a 'bad' thing). And even from backstreet breeders saw the mum and sometimes dad too. Have also had dogs from top breeders - the sort that rarely need to sell to the public, but just sell to other show people. And only jumped their several year long waiting list because I used to work for another well known person in the breed.

I have had more than one person say to me, when they have bought a dog and know I used to work in kennels, say "My Fifi has a pedigree as long as my arm!" Well of course she does. They're printed forms and any pedigree dog will reasonably be traceable for many more generations than represented there. It means nothing. Unless YOUR dog is the one with the red "Champion" next to its name, it's fairly pointless. Well totally pointless for a pet. And puppies aren't champions. But breeders use these (and "KC reg" which also means nothing) as selling points.

Truth is if the breeder is "good" they are breeding show quality dogs and selling the ones not upto par as pets - which is fine, but the bottom line is whilst they don't want a dog that will bite a judge, they don't care a hoot about temperament - they want a show winner. One that conforms to the breed standard. If they say otherwise... they're lying.

Can tell you this - there is no such thing as a 'good' breeder from a pet buyer's point of view. They don't socialise dogs - let it hang around with mum and a few housedogs and call that socialisation. But the point of socialisation is to take pups out and about, expose them to different situations, people, dogs, other animals.

Of the three - backstreet breeders, top ("good") breeders and a rescue - the rescue is by far my best experience of pup buying. I have never known a breeder to homecheck, for example. Or to ask really probing questions. Or give a lifetime's access to advice from qualified behaviourists etc like rescues can.

They pride themselves they have good instinct about people - but do they?

If people want a certain breed, demand is there, sadly. And who is anyone to say anyone else can or can't have the breed of their choice? I know I'm lucky that the breed of dog I love is always going to be in rescue - because they have been overbred and used as status dogs by idiots who clearly know nothing of the breed.

We have to find a way to end puppy farms (what's the betting they're full of pugs and labrodoodles, and whatever is the dog du jour right now?)

That said, I wish rescues weren't full of bull breeds. It is a tragedy for the dogs I love.

Having gone down all three routes, so able to compare them directly, I will definitely only go down the rescue route from now on.

I would question the concept that there are 'good' breeders - or that customers can judge really. (As I say I have bought pups and met both parents and at the end of the day, that doesn't tell you a lot). Breeders argue they do it for the love of it as it's unprofitable. I'm not entirely convinced.

We need to end backstreet breeding - any dog breeding that isn't licensed, and regulated, has no place. Puppy farms fill a demand - so maybe we need to educated people to demand something else.

I do think many folk genuinely don't know their dog is even from a puppy farm. I've heard of people going to these places, and the pup being brought out to them so they don't see the battery farm conditions inside. Have also heard of Welsh puppy farm breeders meeting people halfway at motorway service stations to cover the fact they're puppy farmers. Others advertise on Gumtree and similar sites and people think they are buying a dog from a one-off litter or small breeder, raised in the home.

We need to stop farmers breeding the odd litter of labs and selling them over the farm gate to randomers, as well. They often grow up in a dank corner of a barn then are sold with assurances they have "good temperaments" or have grown up with a family.

We need to make it harder to own a dog, and also far, far harder to breed them. I don't get why puppy farms can't be legislated against.
Erm I'm not sure what breeders you've had experience with, but good breeders do home check, do make sure to vet their potential buyers very thoroughly and if you don't pass their often extremely strict criteria, you don't get one of their pups. They do socialise their puppies and they most certainly do breed for temperament, a dog can have the best conformation in the world for its breed, but it's no use whatsoever if it is a nervous wreck in the showring, bites the judges and snaps at the other dogs! Show dogs have to have, or are meant to have sublime temperaments, they have to be used to being around hundreds of other dogs and owners, the pressure of the showring itself, handled and felt all over by a strange person who will check their teeth, ears, tail, eyes, pick their feet up, handle their heads etc, a dog that snapped at a judge doing this would be sent out of the ring immediately. You only get this level of tolerance and acceptance by starting at an early age, the earlier the better, so good breeders will start socialising their pups as soon as possible. Their a breeder, they want structurally and mentally sound healthy dogs which have to start from structurally and mentally sound healthy puppies. Non show quality pups are sold as pets, but their not any less well reared or socialised, the single only reason their not showable is they don't conform to standard, wrong color, mismarked, wrong ear set, too short a muzzle, incorrect head shape etc, 'faults' in the show ring, but absolutely no issue whatsoever for a healthy well bred pet.

Good breeders will have good instincts on people, they will know from experience if those who enquire are serious or time wasting, can offer the right home, are picking the right pup, and even which pup will be the best match for that person. They give lifetime backup and the decent ones will take back the dog at any time during its life if needs be, in fact they'd insist on it, most would not want a dog they'd bred ending up in shelter or kennels.

As for breeding for the love of it, yes, that is why they breed. A good breeder will breed to get their next show dog, or because the dog they have is an outstanding type of its breed so they breed on to further the lines and with the intent of improving the breed as a whole. Not all the puppies born are going to be show quality, so the ones that aren't are sold on to carefully vetted homes. They wait until the dog is the right age, don't breed every season, and retire them from breeding at around five or six. Backyard breeders and puppy farmers however, breed for profit, and have a lot of litters, that is how they make their money. They breed back to back to fill the demand, breeding dogs far too young with little to no care for what they produce as all they see in a puppy is pound signs.

Breeding dogs is not a cheap way of making a buck, if your making money from dog breeding your doing it wrong. Puppy farms throw any two dogs together of the same or mixed breeds, no care whatsoever for what they churn out, no papers, their reared on the cheapest possible food, and the mother is given no extra supplements or care, because vets and care cost money, and the object for these people is to make money not spend it back on the dogs. Backyard breeders are a bit different, someone whose dog got accidentally caught with next doors, or thought they had a wonderful specimen so decided to breed. They no doubt do care for their dog, say its been seen by a vet, fleas, wormed, that you can see both parents etc, but they haven't really got a clue about breeding properly, and their idea of 'health tested' is a vet saying ' yep, looks nice and fit, shiny nose, wagging tail, four legs, that's a good dog', which doesn't cost very much, nor is it any use.

Genuine proper breeders don't do this. Before they even begin breeding, they have to select a suitable dog to compliment theirs, that can correct any faults theirs may have and that is what they are looking for, which isn't easy. Next it costs about 1000 to get a bitch into top breeding condition before you even think of putting her near a dog! You have to have all the relevant health tests done for your breed, these are not standard vet visits, they usually involve a specialist vet practice, and they are not cheap, far from it! Then, if the tests come back ok, they can proceed, if not, they have to start all over again with a different dog, so they have a stud fee to pay, and hope it's successful, otherwise that will have to be done again, but at the next season, when they have to start getting the dog back into condition all over. Provided its successful, they then have 9 weeks in which scans have to be paid for, possible vet check ups, top quality food to give the pups the best possible start, and various other things. Hopefully they will be born without any issues, but if there's a problem or any complications, you need about a grand or two set aside. The puppies, when they arrive, need worming, fleaing and feeding for at least 8 weeks, possibly longer if they don't all have homes by then.

A very good friend of mine breeds, they bred a litter of pups and they sold them for around 4000 overall, which sounds a lot, but they were costing 60 or more a week in food alone, not to mention all the other costs , my friend might of got 4k but it cost her around 7-8k (if not more) in the first place to breed them. So the actual cost of properly breeding a litter of puppies is in the thousands, much much higher than what the puppies eventually sell for. And this is why there is no money made in dog breeding, it's very much unprofitable to do it properly, its a labour of love all the way through.
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Old 15-11-2014, 13:09
Hogzilla
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Do they homecheck? I have never seen or heard of one doing that. Let's face it if the dogs are any good, people will be coming from all over the country to buy them or even abroad (one of my dog's pups ended up in the US). You can't homecheck that.

Breeders I knew were top of their game - not small-time people, but people who bred dogs that win Crufts and Westminster. Not my mate down the road with a dog whose grandad was a champion. These people pay professional handlers to handle the dogs in the show ring, quite often - I have seen a dog with a disgusting temperament win shows and go on to become the top winner for his breed, abroad. He did eventually bite a judge! (So I'm told) and was quietly PTS eventually but, I suspect, not before he was used a stud dog because he really was spectacularly handsome.

Many litters are profitable, I'd guess, if the mum doesn't need a vet at any stage.

I refuse to see a distinction any more between what we call backstreet breeders and top breeders. I think that has damaged dogs.
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Old 15-11-2014, 15:12
molliepops
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We have had many rescues over the years and have now settled with two from breeders, met the mums and dads and did it the right way. We can't have rescues any more, most rescues will say no to us and we have I think done our bit with some very difficult dogs, just want happy healthy safe dogs now so nothing will stop us having puppies from legitimate sources.

The headline story is terrible and no way should anyone be supporting this trade, make sure you see mum and dad and do the things the right way and you won't be caught out with these problems.
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Old 15-11-2014, 15:52
Elyan
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If someone offers to meet you on the motorway or bring the puppy to you, it's in all likelyhood a puppy farm or disreputable breeder.

It's the bitches that I really feel sorry for. Kept locked in a pen or cage, often permanently, and then bred and bred from when they are often just puppies themselves, until they develope health issues or are not fertile enough anymore, then they are dumped somewhere or killed.

Awful business.
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Old 15-11-2014, 18:22
jaycee331
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My Fifi has a pedigree as long as my arm!" Well of course she does. They're printed forms and any pedigree dog will reasonably be traceable for many more generations than represented there. It means nothing. Unless YOUR dog is the one with the red "Champion" next to its name, it's fairly pointless. .
Not entirely correct. With a known ancestry you can check if too much in-breeding has been done behind the dog. Close breeding can cause genetic mutations and all kinds of problems. Also, if the health of a dog is important to you, only by understanding their ancestry can you properly examine that.

Also, your backstreet or rescue dogs could be the result of brother/sister, half brother/sister matings without the paperwork to prove otherwise.

Truth is if the breeder is "good" they are breeding show quality dogs and selling the ones not up to par as pets - which is fine, but the bottom line is whilst they don't want a dog that will bite a judge, they don't care a hoot about temperament - they want a show winner
Wrong again I'm afraid. You also seem think professional breeding is all about show dogs. There is professional breeding of pedigree working dogs too, which are often considered to be fitter, healthier dogs. These are not bred for looks in any way, they are absolutely bred for health, working ability, intelligence and temperament.

I do agree that the show industry leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but there is far more to professional breeding than that.

I would question the concept that there are 'good' breeders - or that customers can judge really. (
There are definitely good breeders and can be judged by any customer who bothered to educate themselves on what to look for, instead of just buying a "random" from local ads. The best breeders are those that really care about the health and survival of the breed the love. Most pedigree breed's can suffer from a variety of breed specific ailments, many problems can be genetically inherited. A professional breeder will have had the dam and sire put through xrays and DNA tests before mating them.

If it wasn't for the professionals, many breeds could be wiped out through irresponsible breeding of non health tested dogs. A cascade effect can so easily happen if untested parents produce a litter of untested puppies carrying a known genetic mutation responsible for nasty life threatening or quality of life impairing condition, then those puppies are bred from, so on and so forth. Professional breeders use artificial selection to stop this from happening.
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Old 15-11-2014, 23:29
CollieWobbles
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Do they homecheck? I have never seen or heard of one doing that. Let's face it if the dogs are any good, people will be coming from all over the country to buy them or even abroad (one of my dog's pups ended up in the US). You can't homecheck that.

Breeders I knew were top of their game - not small-time people, but people who bred dogs that win Crufts and Westminster. Not my mate down the road with a dog whose grandad was a champion. These people pay professional handlers to handle the dogs in the show ring, quite often - I have seen a dog with a disgusting temperament win shows and go on to become the top winner for his breed, abroad. He did eventually bite a judge! (So I'm told) and was quietly PTS eventually but, I suspect, not before he was used a stud dog because he really was spectacularly handsome.

Many litters are profitable, I'd guess, if the mum doesn't need a vet at any stage.

I refuse to see a distinction any more between what we call backstreet breeders and top breeders. I think that has damaged dogs.
The good ones do. They will vet potential owners very thoroughly, asking you many questions and expecting you to do the same. They learn to have a 'sixth sense' to people who aren't telling the truth or are going to be no good either. If you live too far away, they would likely want to see photographic proof of your yard/garden, especially for the tiny toy breeds who can easily escape out of small spaces. And if you are genuine and have a suitable yard/garden, you won't have any problem allowing this, it works both ways.

Its a marriage of trust in many ways, you trust that their telling you the truth that puppy is from health tested parents (always ask to see the certificates) that aren't too closely related, and will be a good example of the breed its meant to be (although being fair, nobody, no matter how experienced, can pick a future champion at 8 weeks old!, but if they know their dogs, they should be able to give an idea how the pup is likely to turn out), but in turn they have to trust that your telling them the truth, that their puppy will have the lifestyle you've said it will, that it won't end up in a shelter pen, that you will bother to get the dog back to them as agreed if you can no longer keep it, and that you will not breed from it if they sell it with a strict no breeding endorsement. And it is trust on that, because all that endorsement means is that puppies from that dog cannot be KC registered, it doesn't stop people from breeding anyway and selling the pups unregistered. You can't neuter an 8 week old pup, so no matter what endorsements are in the contract, the breeder has only your word that their pup won't be bred from.

The chances of not needing a vet at all are slim, in fact nil, the mother would need to be seen by a vet to have the correct breed health tests in the first place, so it's going to several hundred before you begin. The chances after that no further vet visits are required are virtually nil, even with no problems, both mother and pups would need check ups to make sure everything was going well, and many breeders now microchip and give the first vaccination before the pups leave.

There's breeders and there's breeders, like everything else. Good breeders, do it the love of their breed which is their hobby, their dogs may be show dogs, but their pets first and foremost. They want the best possible pups that confirm to breed standard and have impeccable health and temperaments. They lavishly rear their pups, no expense spared to give them the very best possible start, and they ensure they go to only the best homes, usually wanting to keep in touch with the new owners and on the end of the phone or email for any questions, help, advice as its their passion so their only too happy to chat about it. This is the sort of breeder to go to.

The other sort, are the not so good ones, the ones who's only desire is to lift the Crufts or Westminster best in show cup and will do anything to get there. Their not doing it for the love of the breed, their doing it for the accolade of having a champion, and the money that a champion stud dog can bring in. They usually do keep the dogs well (a poorly kept dog isn't going to bring home ribbons after all), but their an object, a tool to do a job ( get the owner shiny cups at every show going), their not much loved pets, their a number in a kennel, and they don't care what temperament the dog has, as long as it confirms to standard and looks better than all the others in the ring. And then in order to keep this fabulous true to type dog and get the same results from the next litter, they inbreed too closely, which causes obvious genetic issues and eventually issues with appearance as there's too much emphasis on things. A breed with desired skin folds for instance, if bred for emphasis on that, would become unhealthily overdone to the detriment of the dog's health, which is where all the controversy in pedigree dogs came from a few years back, and resulted in breed standards being rewritten stating that features of certain breeds must not be overdone.

It used to be said that crosses and mongrels were healthier than pedigrees, but that isn't true anymore. Thanks to all these so called 'designer dogs', which are the result of people with no real clue throwing any two breeds together and coming up with a 'cute' name, crosses and mongrels are no healthier than their purebred counterparts now, in fact many are worse, as they've inherited the bad issues from both breeds, and with no pedigree to trace back, no background, no parentage, nothing, anything could be in the mix, which is then passed on to the next generation. A pedigree is there for a reason, not just for showing, its a dog's 'family tree' a way of being able to trace it's lines and heritage, so that you can see if its carrying certain genetic issues, will it pass them on, which dog can it be bred with to prevent it doing so, if an issue presents itself in a future litter your able to trace back where it's come from, you know what to avoid in future, who to leave out of your breeding programme, who must not under any circumstances be bred from, so much can be found out from it. Its important, whether it's got a red 'champion' by the name or not.

Your example of a show dog with a terrible temperament winning I can well believe, and yes he almost certainly would of been used at stud, probably several times, passing on a his charming temperament to many dogs. Its despicable, and it's certainly not the norm, but it does happen. Again its down to the 'I'll do anything to win' breeders, and 'wheels within wheels' judges, who give the others, and the show world in general a bad name. Unfortunately, there's big money in dog showing, especially at the top of the league, and where there's big money, there's corruption and greed.
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Old 16-11-2014, 01:16
Lizaj
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We were thoroughly questioned by our breeder. We visited ..driving many miles ...to see the pups.
There are indeed good breeders. We were very lucky and saw straight away that the dogs were not just a business but loved pets with the run of the home. It turns out they were champions as well though that was not important to us as we have no intentions of showing. We saw not only mum but dad, two grandmas, a great grand ma and grand dad as well as " auntie" who went on to win BIB at Crufts. But none seems like primped champs but rough and tumble fun dogs. Only their gorgeousness and confidence stood out! Sorry rescues are not for everyone especially those of us who fallen for a particular breed . I applaud anyone who does and meet many success stories but sadly some less so and a good few not happy with experiences with rescue centres.
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Old 21-11-2014, 21:20
finbaar
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Just get yourself a mongral or decent cross breed {rather than the ridiculous labradoodle types that are inexplicably popular and expensive). You won't get the inbred pedigree behavioral or genetic problems. The only decent breeds are the working ones like Patterdale or fell terriers, working spaniels, border collies etc.

I saw a pekingese a few months ago. The poor thing had a 2d face.
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Old 21-11-2014, 21:30
molliepops
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Just get yourself a mongral or decent cross breed {rather than the ridiculous labradoodle types that are inexplicably popular and expensive). You won't get the inbred pedigree behavioral or genetic problems. The only decent breeds are the working ones like Patterdale or fell terriers, working spaniels, border collies etc.

I saw a pekingese a few months ago. The poor thing had a 2d face.
Generalising much ! IME crosses have as many problems as pure breeds these days. Better to get a well bred dog from a good breeder whether they are crosses or pure breeds. In fact health testing is far more likely to be done by a decent pure breed breeder than anyone breeding crosses.
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Old 21-11-2014, 23:29
Hogzilla
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What I don't get is no-one thinks puppy farms - even if heavily regulated - are a good thing. No-one. And there is no doubt they add to the number of dogs in rescue directly (many of the dogs have behavioura problems and will end up being surrendered or are bought on impulse) and indirectly (every pup bought from one is another one turned away from full rescues and PTS).

Only people who own them must think they are a good thing.

So what has any government to lose i banning them outright? Why not make them illegal? There are plenty of things people can raise as livestock - but pets? That is unacceptable. Why does any government have interest in preserving them at all? Genuine question.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47
molliepops
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What I don't get is no-one thinks puppy farms - even if heavily regulated - are a good thing. No-one. And there is no doubt they add to the number of dogs in rescue directly (many of the dogs have behavioura problems and will end up being surrendered or are bought on impulse) and indirectly (every pup bought from one is another one turned away from full rescues and PTS).

Only people who own them must think they are a good thing.

So what has any government to lose i banning them outright? Why not make them illegal? There are plenty of things people can raise as livestock - but pets? That is unacceptable. Why does any government have interest in preserving them at all? Genuine question.
Money, they have even given grants to some to build their businesses.
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Old Yesterday, 13:35
CollieWobbles
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Just get yourself a mongral or decent cross breed {rather than the ridiculous labradoodle types that are inexplicably popular and expensive). You won't get the inbred pedigree behavioral or genetic problems. The only decent breeds are the working ones like Patterdale or fell terriers, working spaniels, border collies etc.

I saw a pekingese a few months ago. The poor thing had a 2d face.
If you read what I put in my last post you'll see why that isn't true at all.

I agree about pekes though, they have been horribly disfigured through type breeding, to the point they can't walk, breathe or move properly. Personally, I think they've gone to such an awful extreme, they should be allowed to die out, sad but much better than breeding puppies who can even basically function properly.


What I don't get is no-one thinks puppy farms - even if heavily regulated - are a good thing. No-one. And there is no doubt they add to the number of dogs in rescue directly (many of the dogs have behavioura problems and will end up being surrendered or are bought on impulse) and indirectly (every pup bought from one is another one turned away from full rescues and PTS).

Only people who own them must think they are a good thing.

So what has any government to lose i banning them outright? Why not make them illegal? There are plenty of things people can raise as livestock - but pets? That is unacceptable. Why does any government have interest in preserving them at all? Genuine question.
Because although people don't think their a good thing, should be wiped out, that their scum of the earth places etc, many will still buy from them, either out of blatant ignorance or sheer stupidity. Working with dogs, I'm often amazed (and saddened) by how many still don't do the most basic research when it comes to buying a puppy, even though there is so much information readily available. I've met people who knowingly bought a puppy farm dog, they saw it advertised, went straight round to get it on impulse, saw how they were kept, knew the owner had lied about the breed ( they said it was pure when it was blatantly a mix of who knows what) and were ripping them off with price, but took it anyway because 'they felt sorry for it and wanted it out of there' despite knowing that the person would only breed more to fill the space as they now knew they'd sell.

Then I've met the opposite, ones who had done no research, no clue what you look for or ask about, had no suspicions about paying a 'bargain' 100 for a 1500 purebreed, didn't think to ask about seeing pedigree papers, didn't even think to ask to see the parents, took the smallest as 'it was the cutest' ( a huge no, as the smallest are usually runts plagued with problems), then wondered why their puppy had grown three times bigger than it was supposed to, looked nothing like the breed it was meant to be, had a bad disposition and temperament and it had cost them more at the vets in three weeks than they paid for the actual dog.

Despite all the information around, there are still copious people like the two I've just mentioned, and puppy farmers/BYB love them. Their absolutely perfect for them, as they either hand over the money willingly and knowingly without caring, or they hand it over without question. And while people continue to do this, there's going to be someone keeping the bad breeders going. So whilst everyone knows puppy farms are bad news, many either knowingly or unknowingly still use them.
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Old Yesterday, 13:37
StressMonkey
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Money, they have even given grants to some to build their businesses.
Plus the current problem is with puppy farms outside the UK bringing puppies into this country. Unless customs tighten up checking paper work or legislation is changed back so very young pups can't be brought in, it isn't going to stop.

Puppy farming does still exist in the UK but action can be taken through the local council, if local bylaws are broken or there are EH issues, or RSPCA if there are animal wellfare issues.

That said, I think there should be tighter animal welfare laws on breeding dogs whether puppy farm, back yard breeder, hobby breeder, show breeder or 'just let them have one litter' breeders. Licensing all dogs with a premium for entire bitches (unless for medical reasons) and making breeders responsible for the puppies they produce (register, license and chip all puppies) might be a way forward - if policed better than current laws.
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Old Yesterday, 22:02
CollieWobbles
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Plus the current problem is with puppy farms outside the UK bringing puppies into this country. Unless customs tighten up checking paper work or legislation is changed back so very young pups can't be brought in, it isn't going to stop.

Puppy farming does still exist in the UK but action can be taken through the local council, if local bylaws are broken or there are EH issues, or RSPCA if there are animal wellfare issues.

That said, I think there should be tighter animal welfare laws on breeding dogs whether puppy farm, back yard breeder, hobby breeder, show breeder or 'just let them have one litter' breeders. Licensing all dogs with a premium for entire bitches (unless for medical reasons) and making breeders responsible for the puppies they produce (register, license and chip all puppies) might be a way forward - if policed better than current laws.
There's no plans for licensing and registering being made mandatory, but microchipping will be compulsory for every single dog, whether its a showdog, pet, farm dog, sheepdog, gundog, or other working dog by 1 march in Wales 2015 and 6 april 2016 in England. It's already been done in Northern Ireland since april 2012 and Scotland are waiting to see the results of England and Wales first. This will hopefully help a great deal by ensuring puppies and dogs can be traced back to who bred them and where they came from, hopefully resulting in less 'unknowns' ending up in pounds and any nuisance/dangerous dogs will be trackable to their owner as well.
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Old Today, 09:49
molliepops
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There's no plans for licensing and registering being made mandatory, but microchipping will be compulsory for every single dog, whether its a showdog, pet, farm dog, sheepdog, gundog, or other working dog by 1 march in Wales 2015 and 6 april 2016 in England. It's already been done in Northern Ireland since april 2012 and Scotland are waiting to see the results of England and Wales first. This will hopefully help a great deal by ensuring puppies and dogs can be traced back to who bred them and where they came from, hopefully resulting in less 'unknowns' ending up in pounds and any nuisance/dangerous dogs will be trackable to their owner as well.
I'm not against chipping but I think you are too optimistic how will they be traced when some dogs change hands many times in their life times, what will tracing the breeder achieve ? unless we make them responsible for the dogs they breed. Just finding the breeder in most cases will do nothing to help at all.
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