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Why I hate the Foxsat — anything better out there?


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Old 10-09-2012, 11:32
Alan White
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I've had my Foxsat only for a few weeks but even so I found myself nodding in agreement at many of Grand Dizzy's points.

I also have a 9300T and, when I wanted to save the Sky+ subscription, bought the Foxsat partly because I assumed that the interface would be similar. They're not: if you removed the identification from both boxes nobody would believe they were made by the same company.

Channel order
I was surprised that, unlike on the 9300, you can't order channels to your preference. This was one of the things which bugged me about Sky but at least they offered favourites.
Yes, you can delete channels but they return the next day.

Unresponsive controls
The problem I notice most is when first going into the Guide. The Foxsat insists on refreshing the EPG at this point and that's when the response is poor. After thirty seconds or so, once refreshed, response is better. The EPG should be - and, I'm told, is - refreshed in the background.

Conflicts are allowed to happen
My experience is the opposite: the Foxsat will sometimes refuse to allow me to schedule a recording because it thinks there's a conflict. On these occasions I've not been able to see what the conflict is and the Foxsat doesn't tell me! In this situation Sky+ lists all three programmes with a timeline and allows you to cancel one of them. The Foxsat merely gives me a confusing, unhelpful and unexplained message.

No recording of buffer
Yes, this is a really odd omission. The recording is all there: you just can't choose to save it. Both the 9300 and Sky+ allow rewinding into the buffer and saving it.

Crazy playback timeline
In respect of live TV, I agree. It seems that it's fixed to show the entire two hours. That's fine if there's actually two hours in the buffer but if you've just switched channels then the effect is as Grand Dizzy describes. The 9300 is much better in respect of the timeline but is poor at showing the current position in the buffer. Indeed, on the 9300 it's not possible to determine whether you're watching live TV or the buffer.The Foxsat gives a much better indication by using words like "play" and "live" in the timeline.

Hard to delete
Not only does it take five keypresses to delete a file but the menu option says "Delete a file" when what it means is "Delete this file". It should just say "Delete". And sometimes the cursor isn't on the programme you've just watched: great care is needed to ensure you delete the intended programme.

Bad interface
Indeed: almost half of every screen is wasted. This is especially annoying in the schedule, which doesn't include the channel name in the table - even though there's plenty of space - and you need to scroll through the list and move your eyes from the bottom of the screen to the top each time you want to see the channel name.

No search function
As Grand Dizzy then goes on to say, there is a search function but it's cumbersome. At first I thought that the list of previous search terms was a really good idea. Until I discovered that it gets deleted every night.

Badly designed remote
My pet hate is the weird layout of the play/rew/ff etc keys. All remotes I've ever seen, from the earliest VCR remotes, through DVD, Sky+, and even the 9300, have Rewind, then Play, then FF: all on the same line and in close proximity to each other. The Foxsat has Play at the far left of one row and Rew/FF below it. Very confusing.
A good thing about the Foxsat is that, unlike the 9300, there are no buttons hidden under a sliding flap.

Remote has limited range
Agreed. The Foxsat remote is the worst I've ever used. Yes, I have removed both films. I wondered at first if the problem is that the IR receiver is buried in a tunnel because of the thick flap but leaving the flap down doesn't improve things

Can’t pause on any frame
I too find that frustrating. To be fair, not since frame advance on a previous VCR have I seen a PVR that works properly in this respect.

Having commented on Grand Dizzy's observations I'll add some of my own.

The first problem I had with the Foxsat was that it didn't work reliably: it often failed to schedule the next programme in a series link after recording the first; and the thumbnails were always blank. After advice on here it seems that there's an undocumented and unimplemented requirement to put the box in standby overnight so it can do housekeeping. I hadn't set it up to do this principally because I don't want automatic updates. As the 9300 has an option to turn those off I was surprised that the Foxsat doesn't.

The answer to the channel ordering/deletion issue should be favourites but, unlike the 9300, the Foxsat's favourites are utterly useless. All they are is one or more lists of channel names: it's not possible to view the EPG just for a favourites list, or even see what's on now/next just on a favourites list.

When I choose to schedule a recording the first thing I get is an annoying and unnecessary prompt about SD/HD. Is it not obvious that I want to record the channel I'm looking at in the EPG?

The volume control on the remote should work the TV regardless of what mode is set (as Sky does and One4All used to call "punch-through"). It's frustrating to have to keep switching between modes to adjust the volume.

The box claims to be 500Gb. Leaving aside the usual issue of disk manufacturers lying about capacity, the box comes preconfigured with 26Gb of space unusable because it's reserved for music/photos (though what this is for I don't know). Actual capacity for recordings is about 463Gb. I'm told that the music/photo space can be reduced to 1Gb but the point is that it shouldn't be set up as it is. By default, all the space should be available for recordings.

Many of the fonts used are too small and therefore difficult to read; for example, the current position in the timeline. Conversely, some, such as the channel name in the top half of the screen, are unnecessarily large and therefore waste space.

Lastly, the User's Manual. This is one respect in which the 9300 and the Foxsat are alike: both manuals are all but useless. They were clearly written by someone whose first language isn't English and who was so familiar with the product that he didn't feel the need to explain why you might want to do something, or the consequences of doing or not doing it. Both manuals omit many important features and are of the style "Delete a file. You can delete a file. Press the Delete key.".

Having said all that, do I hate the Foxsat as Grand Dizzy does? No, not at all. It's a good replacement for Sky+ which will pay for itself in six months or so. Mind you, if it wasn't for the help of people on here and My Humax Org it's likely I would have returned it soon after purchase because it will not work reliably unless it's in standby overnight and therefore you cannot prevent automatic updates.


To provide some balance in this otherwise negative post, there are some things which I really like about the Foxsat.

The folders/file manager. This makes for a much tidier and easier to navigate UI for recordings.

The Prev/Next buttons in the EPG, enabling a view of two hours/one day forward/back. (The 9300 has similar functions but the buttons are hidden under the flap.)

Presentation of the timeline, especially when watching the buffer. The 9300's is hard to understand but the Foxsat's is clear and meaningful.

The programmable remote (but see above). Having been used to the Sky remote I'd resigned myself to having to have three remotes handy (TV, 9300, Foxsat). With the Foxsat remote I can leave the TV remote in the drawer.

No buttons hidden under a sliding flap on the remote.

Catch-up TV.


What three things would I like Humax to implement to improve my user experience?
1. Remote control volume "punch-through"
2. A proper favourites system
3. The ability to disable auto update.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:45
Andrue
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move your eyes from the bottom of the screen to the top each time you want to see the channel name.
I never want to know the channel name anyway. Well sometimes I happen to know the channel if I'm setting up a recording for something I've just seen advertised but I time shift everything and consequently channel names are of little or no interest to me
I don't want automatic updates.
Why not? I think you're in danger of making a rod for your own back there.
The programmable remote (but see above). Having been used to the Sky remote I'd resigned myself to having to have three remotes handy (TV, 9300, Foxsat). With the Foxsat remote I can leave the TV remote in the drawer.
Sorted. There are cheaper versions but really that remote will control everything and despite mine controlling six things (including my PS3 for media use) I've never had to assign a task to a silly button because there was nothing appropriate. It also fits in the hand really well.

I was very reluctant to buy another Humax after my 9200T. In fact I said here I never would buy Humax again. But my experience has been very favourable and I'd happily recommend the HDR to anyone.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:55
REPASSAC
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.............................
What three things would I like Humax to implement to improve my user experience?
1. Remote control volume "punch-through"
2. A proper favourites system
3. The ability to disable auto update.
1. I. think 1 would be a problem with 5.1 audio as it is encoded and simply passed to the connected device.
2. A lot of perople would like to see this - hopefully freesat will relax their restrictions on this and other things (Bet they will never allow channel reordering).
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:22
Alan White
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Because I don't like software being updated behind my back. I've been bitten too many times by faulty software updates (Windows, Sky etc), and spent much too long fixing the problems, to want to automatically update especially without a regression path.

There are cheaper versions but really that remote will control everything
£115!!! That's nearly as much as I paid for the box itself! Many years ago I bought a universal remote and spent much too long configuring it with my then equipment. Then I got some different equipment and, despite One4All's claim that the remote could be updated, had to buy another universal remote and so spent the time all over again. I don't wish to repeat the cost and experience just to get a volume control that works logically.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:42
grahamlthompson
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Yes, you can delete channels but they return the next day.

Unresponsive controls

Conflicts are allowed to happen

No recording of buffer

Hard to delete

Bad interface

No search function

Badly designed remote
Remote has limited range


Can’t pause on any frame


.
Alan install the custom firmware amongst loads of other goodies it has web based remote control . If you have a laptop, smartphone or tablet the on screen remote addresses pretty well all of your remote problems. It works via your network you don't even have to be in the same room.
You can add channel icon favourites which will take you instantly to the channel (of in the epg the same icons take you directly to the epg data for that channel and you can create button macros for instance schedule/red which displays the cached epg instantly (solving your response problems afrer pressing guide). The channel search facility is much easier to get on with when you have a proper keyboard.

Taking your other points,

Freesat don't allow the re-ordering of the channel list so all Freesat kit will have the same restrictions.

The so called channel delete in fact just hides the channels. They should not become visible again unless you do a manual freesat retune. The custom firmware in fact lets you unhide channels you don't normally see because of postcode. eg Fancy both ITV1-HD variants in your epg - no problem

Conflict problems - these are almost always down to the way the broadcaster specifies the crid codes. Eg the bbc have a habit of providing a series crid and no programme crid. As a result the box thinks each regional variant of the same programme is anew eposode so tries to schedule all of them.

Non recording of the buffer. the timeshift buffer file (0.ts) is not encrypted when viewing HD channels. As a result buffer record would defeat the encryption imposed by the broadcaster. The custom firmware lets you stream or copy this file over your network. As a result you can view HD remotely a little behind real time. The new box has buffer recording.

Hard to delete - see custom firmware

Bad interface - Custom firmware has multiple user generated epg templates. You can set up your own view of the epg just like Sky Favourites. The new box has the capability to switch the epg to just your favourites.

Badly designed remote
Remote has limited range
Custom Firmware

No frame advance

VCRs/Analogue TV have every single frame full frame available, digital tv does not it uses a lossy mpeg compression system where 1 full frame (I frame) is followed by partial frames with only differences transmitted for a group of following frames (Known as a GOP - Group Of Pictures). The mpeg decoder recreates the frames on the fly. As a result it's much harder to produce a single frame advance capability which is why frame advance skips I frame to I frame.

Autoupdate is mandated by the Freesat spec, why you wopuld want to turn it off is rather puzzling. What's the point in complaining about problems that may well have already been fixed. Without auto-update no Foxsat-hdr owners would have been able to record any of the 24 Olympic HD streams.
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:19
Alan White
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One of the comments in this thread is about the difficulty in deleting recorded programmes. The suggestion, which I slavishly copied from memory, is that it takes five keypresses to delete. This isn't true: it's seven.

Highlight the programme you want and press the yellow button.
Personally I delete after viewing and that's easy. Bring up the guide, the current recording will be highlighted. Yellow. Ok. Done.
finish watching programme, press OK select Delete, Press OK press EXIT.
None of these suggestions works for me. Here's my workflow:
- recorded programme is playing, nearing its end
- press Stop, returns to Media
- check that the just-watched programme is highlighted (sometimes the box goes to a different, random programme)
- press OK
- press Down twice to highlight Delete a file
- press OK
- press Left
- press OK
- programme is deleted
Total: 7 keypresses

If there's a quicker way I'd love to hear about it.

Compare this with Sky+ (from memory as the box isn't connected):
- recorded programme is playing, nearing its end
- press Back, returns to Planner
- press Yellow
- programme is deleted (if not marked as Keep)
Total: 2 keypresses (or 3 if marked Keep)
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:42
galleonslap
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Compare this with Sky+ (from memory as the box isn't connected):
- recorded programme is playing, nearing its end
- press Back, returns to Planner
- press Yellow
- programme is deleted (if not marked as Keep)
Total: 2 keypresses (or 3 if marked Keep)
I agree the Sky+HD box makes it really easy to delete programmes. When we had Sky, a delete as above on several occasions also deleted the programme below the one intended, i.e. two deleted at once! When I became aware of this I took to making sure I pressed the yellow button as a very short sharp action, but it still occasionally happened. I'd rather have a confirmation dialogue than lose something I didn't want to erase.
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:50
grahamlthompson
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I agree the Sky+HD box makes it really easy to delete programmes. When we had Sky, a delete as above on several occasions also deleted the programme below the one intended, i.e. two deleted at once! When I became aware of this I took to making sure I pressed the yellow button as a very short sharp action, but it still occasionally happened. I'd rather have a confirmation dialogue than lose something I didn't want to erase.
Newer Sky-HD boxes are about to get an undelete option
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:52
grahamlthompson
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One of the comments in this thread is about the difficulty in deleting recorded programmes. The suggestion, which I slavishly copied from memory, is that it takes five keypresses to delete. This isn't true: it's seven.







- check that the just-watched programme is highlighted (sometimes the box goes to a different, random programme)
- press OK
- press Down twice to highlight Delete a file
- press OK
- press Left
- press OK
- programme is deleted
Total: 7 keypresses
Correct, the exact key sequence stored in my webif remote macro button. Except it's 6 unless a started recording has displaced the selected item, then it's 7
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:00
REPASSAC
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One of the comments in this thread is about the difficulty in deleting recorded programmes. The suggestion, which I slavishly copied from memory, is that it takes five keypresses to delete. This isn't true: it's seven.

None of these suggestions works for me. Here's my workflow:
- recorded programme is playing, nearing its end
- press Stop, returns to Media
- check that the just-watched programme is highlighted (sometimes the box goes to a different, random programme)
- press OK
- press Down twice to highlight Delete a file
- press OK
- press Left
- press OK
- programme is deleted
Total: 7 keypresses

If there's a quicker way I'd love to hear about it.
I think you will find if you start by pressing Media (while skill paying) the current programme is always the one highlighted.

I hear by nominate the "make playlist" function as so obscure I bet that only a handful of you know it is there.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:04
Alan White
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Alan install the custom firmware
I have the custom firmware. While it offers some useful additions it mostly works around defects in the basic software and therefore is proof that Humax's interface, which is what is under discussion, is inadequate.

web based remote control
This is only useful if the PC is in the same room as the Foxsat: mine isn't. Nor would I want them to be: the PC is in the study, the Foxsat and TV in the lounge.

Freesat don't allow the re-ordering of the channel list
That's as maybe: it's nothing to do with Freesat how I choose to use my equipment. Would you think it acceptable for Bosch to mandate the program you use to wash your clothes?

I didn't make myself clear. I'm aware that many such problems are down to the broadcaster (though my experience is that this is much less of a problem on all platforms than it used to be). My point is that when it thinks there's a conflict the Foxsat does not tell me which programmes are in conflict. I therefore have no information about how to resolve the conflict.

Non recording of the buffer
Once again you're suggesting using the custom firmware to work around a defect in Humax's software. I'm not interested in HD nor, except in unusual circumstances, watching TV on my PC. Anyway, the solution is simple: just record the buffer encrypted. That's what Sky does. Yes, it will prevent the workround you're currently taking advantage of but it will enable all Foxsat users to record the buffer.

Hard to delete - see custom firmware
Did I mention that you often suggest using the custom firmware to work around a defect in Humax's software ? The process here should be simple: watch a program, delete it. Instead of providing a dedicated key to delete the just-watched programme Humax clutter up the UI with infrequently-used functions such as Change Device whilst hiding common functions behind a menu.

Custom firmware has multiple user generated epg templates
And very useful it is too. But it's not on the Foxsat.

Thanks for the explanation. However, as the box can reconstruct the base image and then the changes whilst in play mode it must be possible to do the same in slow motion and therefore in frame advance. It's no different from what the box does normally: I just want it to do it one step at a time on command. A bit like stepping through code in debug.

Autoupdate is mandated by the Freesat spec
Once again, it's none of Freesat's business what version of the software I choose to run. It isn't even any concern of Humax, with the proviso that in the event of a problem they would, not unreasonably, require that I run the latest software before reporting the problem. However, I think you equate not wanting automatic updates with not wanting updates. I want to do updates in a controlled way, at a time which suits me, and with a regression plan. I've spent a long time fixing problems caused by automatic updates and disable them whenever I can.

What's the point in complaining about problems that may well have already been fixed.
None at all. Have any of the problems listed in this thread been fixed?

Without auto-update no Foxsat-hdr owners would have been able to record any of the 24 Olympic HD streams.
The best feature I would have liked during the last two months was something to automatically replace all Olympics programmes with something more useful. Thank heaven it's all over .
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:09
Young Turks
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I don't hate Humax but found the HD picture so soft I had to return the box.

Normally they make good PVRs, I had 2 versions of Humax Freeview PVR that were rock solid and very reliable but Foxsat HD picture quality let me down.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:13
Alan White
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I think you will find if you start by pressing Media (while skill paying) the current programme is always the one highlighted.
Thanks. Yes, that looks good because then there's a green arrow to show the programme is still playing.

I hear by nominate the "make playlist" function as so obscure I bet that only a handful of you know it is there.
One of the benefits of being a new user is that the manual is still fresh in the mind. I saw that feature, thought "what's the point of that?", and ignored it.

It does remind me of another annoyance, though. The media list has all the programmes upside down. To watch the first program in a series you have to scroll to the bottom of the list .
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:18
grahamlthompson
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[quote=Alan White;61046831This is only useful if the PC is in the same room as the Foxsat: mine isn't. Nor would I want them to be: the PC is in the study, the Foxsat and TV in the lounge.
[/QUOTE]

I give up, I can use the remote on my laptop, a tiny netbook. my wifes smartphone and even in a rudimentary fashion on a WIfi Kindle e-reader. Time to join the 21st century.

The main reason for the custom firmware is to allow streaming of recorded content to PC's and other DNLA devices. There would be little point if they were in the same room. Your wife could be watching the Foxsat in the lounge while you watch something entirely different. Like I said I give up there is no way I am wasting my time anymore. For someone who says you have the custom firmware it's clear you haven't a clue how to use it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:21
Andrue
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£115!!! That's nearly as much as I paid for the box itself! Many years ago I bought a universal remote and spent much too long configuring it with my then equipment.
Not really a problem with the Harmon One. Most of the time you just select the manufacturer/model from a list and that's that. There's a little of extra work because its activity based rather than item based but it's all done through drop down lists. My biggest complaint about it is that it's a little too noddy.

The activity based system is great. Basically an example I use would be the activity 'Sky HD'.

The devices used by that activity are TV, Sky HD and Onkyo Amp. The configuration utility will usually work out which is which. If I remember correctly it asked me to confirm that the volume control should affect the amp not the TV and asked what input the Onkyo/TV should be set to. After that if you select that activity the remote switches things off/on and changes their input appropriately. It's as if my A/V stack is one device controlled by one remote
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:23
peter05
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Feel better now Allen White , It seems to me, even when someone try's to help you and tell you a way to make your box work even better you are not interested and you seem happy to blame HUMAX for thing's like the EPG that they have no control of.

I could say that I am disapointed that my Tv and PVR does not come on when I sit down to watch it. saying that the TV does come on when I press the button on my pvr to come on. I agree we could all find things we would like our TV's and PVR'S to do put you have to be realistic sorry if that sound's negative
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:35
Andrue
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press OK
- press Down twice to highlight Delete a file
- press OK
- press Left
- press OK
Thinking about it you are right. I might be confusing deleting a timer entry and the delete function on Sky.
Compare this with Sky+ (from memory as the box isn't connected):
- recorded programme is playing, nearing its end
- press Back, returns to Planner
- press Yellow
On Sky HD the wrong programme can be highlighted at this point. In fact with their new EPG it's very common. Actually a point in your favour re updates ( ) but it seems that if anything new has been recorded since playback started the wrong thing will be highlighted. I've now lost three programmes that way and have had to resort to using the keep function to force a 'Are you sure?' type prompt which annoys me because normally I hate that kind of thing.
It does remind me of another annoyance, though. The media list has all the programmes upside down. To watch the first program in a series you have to scroll to the bottom of the list .
Good point
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:39
grahamlthompson
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[quote=Andrue;61047375. I've now lost three programmes that way and have had to resort to using the keep function to force a 'Are you sure?' type prompt which annoys me because normally I hate that kind of thing.[/QUOTE]


Sky will shortly have a undelete feature on it's newer HD boxes.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/06/s...ecorded-shows/
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:46
Dan the Van
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It does remind me of another annoyance, though. The media list has all the programmes upside down. To watch the first program in a series you have to scroll to the bottom of the list .
Mine doesn't, you need to look at the sort options.

Press the LIST button to sort the files in file name,
time, channel number order
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:00
Andrue
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Yeah but I'd rather they fixed the actual problem as well. Far better not to accidentally delete it in the first place. I'm also wondering how I will find what I just accidentally deleted. Unless it lists by chronological order of deletion it could be a nightmare. We time-shift everything and watch things as the fancy takes us. Last night I watched something that had been lying around for nearly two months.

Trying to find the one programme I accidentally deleted amongst the hundreds (many hundreds) that were deliberately deleted could be tricky - I'm unlikely to know the name for instance.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:09
grahamlthompson
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Yeah but I'd rather they fixed the actual problem as well. Far better not to accidentally delete it in the first place. I'm also wondering how I will find what I just accidentally deleted. Unless it lists by chronological order of deletion it could be a nightmare. We time-shift everything and watch things as the fancy takes us. Last night I watched something that had been lying around for nearly two months.

Trying to find the one programme I accidentally deleted amongst the hundreds (many hundreds) that were deliberately deleted could be tricky - I'm unlikely to know the name for instance.
It moves the content links to a buffer area which when full presumably chucks out the oldest. You won't get thousands only recently deleted content otherwise your space for normal recordings will just shrink. This presumably lists content just like they are listed in your media list including the programme synopses. Just like the deleted files folder in your e-mail client or the garbage bin in windows.

Deleting files on a PC doesn't delete the data, just removes the few bytes that locate which sectors of the hdd contain the content.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:16
Alan White
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Mine doesn't, you need to look at the sort options.
I have. If you do the same you'll see that there's no option to set the sort ascending or descending. For the alpha and channel sorts it's only ascending, not unreasonably; for the time sort it's only descending which, unless you want to watch the series in reverse, is daft.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:24
Alan White
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I don't understand why you always feel the need to be so hostile. Unless you wrote the Humax software then my criticism isn't aimed at you. Even if you did write the software my criticism still wouldn't be directed at you but rather at Humax the company.

Let's also remember that I didn't start this thread: it was started by another user who also finds Humax's UI weird and, in some respects, unnecessarily difficult to use.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:25
REPASSAC
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I have. If you do the same you'll see that there's no option to set the sort ascending or descending. For the alpha and channel sorts it's only ascending, not unreasonably; for the time sort it's only descending which, unless you want to watch the series in reverse, is daft.
Hello again Alan,
Ok what you want is to sort by name - after you change to it - exit the series and return - now it should be OK. I think this works because the name on disk have the time embedded.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:28
Alan White
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Alan

It seems to me, even when someone try's to help you and tell you a way to make your box work even better
I haven't seen any such suggestions. The greatest suggestion has been to use the custom firmware, which is an agreement that Humax's own software is inadequate.
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