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Why I hate the Foxsat — anything better out there?


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Old 10-09-2012, 15:32
Alan White
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Hello again Alan,
Ok what you want is to sort by name - after you change to it - exit the series and return - now it should be OK. I think this works because the name on disk have the time embedded.
Thanks. I'll give that a try when my wife finishes with the box. It's a bit counter-intuitive, though: sorting by name to get it to sort by time .
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:37
Andrue
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It moves the content links to a buffer area which when full presumably chucks out the oldest. You won't get thousands only recently deleted content otherwise your space for normal recordings will just shrink. This presumably lists content just like they are listed in your media list including the programme synopses. Just like the deleted files folder in your e-mail client or the garbage bin in windows.
I'd still hope it was ordered by deletion date or had the 'Viewed' status. Otherwise you'd have to go through each programme's synopsis and hope you could remember which one you hadn't actually watched. Also of course not good if you're low on disk space and two things are being recorded. By the time you realise the mistake it could be too late
Deleting files on a PC doesn't delete the data, just removes the few bytes that locate which sectors of the hdd contain the content.
Depends on the file system. NTFS for instance doesn't even do that much. It flags the MFT record(s) that describe the file as free. The actual metadata for the file inside the records remains intact. I used to write data recovery software and the first time I ran our NTFS utility I was surprised how many files came back. It took a couple of hours before I found out where the MFT's usage bitmap was stored
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:59
galleonslap
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Newer Sky-HD boxes are about to get an undelete option
Hmmm, I wonder why...
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:36
Alan White
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Thanks. I'll give that a try when my wife finishes with the box. It's a bit counter-intuitive, though: sorting by name to get it to sort by time .
Unfortunately this doesn't quite work. Yes, sorting by name does sort by date with the strange exception that programmes recorded today sometimes appear at the top of the list if the sort is by name or channel.

So you get a strangely ordered list like this:
Name 10/9
Name 7/9
Name 8/9
Name 9/9

Even more oddly, it's inconsistent. Today's Bondi Rescues sort correctly (though it took a couple of attempts to make it do so) while today's Escape to the Country stubbornly stays at the top.

Also, the sorting isn't applied until you leave the folder.

Just two more weird things about the Foxsat software...

I think I'll stick with sorting by date. I may have to scroll to the bottom but at least it's consistent.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:47
grahamlthompson
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I think I'll stick with sorting by date. I may have to scroll to the bottom but at least it's consistent.
press up twice.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:54
Alan White
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Thanks. I think that's mostly what I do do, sometimes unconsciously.
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Old 10-09-2012, 17:56
Dan the Van
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Unfortunately this doesn't quite work. Yes, sorting by name does sort by date with the strange exception that programmes recorded today sometimes appear at the top of the list if the sort is by name or channel.

So you get a strangely ordered list like this:
Name 10/9
Name 7/9
Name 8/9
Name 9/9

Even more oddly, it's inconsistent. Today's Bondi Rescues sort correctly (though it took a couple of attempts to make it do so) while today's Escape to the Country stubbornly stays at the top.

Also, the sorting isn't applied until you leave the folder.

Just two more weird things about the Foxsat software...

I think I'll stick with sorting by date. I may have to scroll to the bottom but at least it's consistent.
I think it will sort out to the correct order overnight once the housekeeping is done.
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:23
excollier
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Such hard physical work, pressing buttons on a remote control.
Coming from VCRs and then a set top box plugged into the scart of an analogue HDD recorder, the Foxsat HDR is a stunning leap forward. And with Raydon's software added... well, I for one am well pleased. Yes it's quirky, but a great piece of kit.
You pays your money.......
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:48
AndrewLG
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Such hard physical work, pressing buttons on a remote control.
Coming from VCRs and then a set top box plugged into the scart of an analogue HDD recorder, the Foxsat HDR is a stunning leap forward. And with Raydon's software added... well, I for one am well pleased. Yes it's quirky, but a great piece of kit.
You pays your money.......
I agree, even with it's age I would only consider a HDR unless I moved to a new generation box. As long as I can get to where I want with the remote I am happy.

Maybe some people should spend a bit less time down the gym and then would have the energy to press "up to seven buttons".
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:37
Grand Dizzy
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Well, thanks to everyone for all the advice and responses here! I wasn’t actually this thread to get much attention; I just wanted to post my thoughts on the machine for the record.

I appreciate everyone’s help! Thank you to MJR and Graham, and to Andrue and Alan for the detailed replies!

My Foxsat colour theme!
As I’ve said, I find the Foxsat colours rather cold and depressing. If they’d used more welcoming colours, I think it would change my whole perception of the Foxsat and I might not hate it so much!

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7264/dizzy2.jpg

I wonder what people think? (I did this in, like, 40 minutes.) Probably not to everyone’s taste, but personally I just don’t feel like killing myself as much when I look at my version

I’ve also thought of another complaint to add to my initial list:

No single-channel EPG On (presumably) most PVRs, you can look at the schedule for just one channel (like this on the Topfield). There is a pitiful way to do this on the Foxsat, but it’s so bad it’s not worth even using. You can only see three programmes ahead of now (rather than the whole evening’s TV), and when you move between channels the “now” time drifts so you lose control of what you’re looking at. Oh and it’s SO slow!

Now on to a few responses…

IIRC there was a problem at one point with updating the box if it only had a single satellite feed (or had only detected a single feed at initial setup.) Based on what you've said above regards failed recordings and REPASSAC's reply it may be that the box is in single cable mode.

If you do actually have two feeds connected (to the outer two tuner connections on the back) I'd note down a copy of the schedule, perform a factory reset (Menu -> Setup > Factory Reset), verify that two cables are detected as you go through initial setup, then re-check for firmware updates.

Alternatively you could download and install via USB from here: http://beta.humaxonline.co.uk/downloads/foxsat-hdr. But you'd still want to reset it to ensure both cables have been detected.
That is very interesting MJR! I guess there is a strong possibility I never connected one of the cables correctly when I bought the box, which may have been to blame for many of my troubles?

I’m afraid I can’t answer many questions because I currently can’t use the box: a couple of months ago someone kicked a football into my dish, breaking off the feedhorn. I taped it back in the right place (I thought) but I get no signal at all. So the box keeps asking for a postcode and can’t verify without a signal, so I can’t boot it or watch any recordings. I was quoted £65 by an installer to fix it but I’m moving home very soon so it’s definitely not worth it!

As for me not having a good signal, I never experienced any apparent signal loss or breaking up. It seemed like a rock solid signal. I don’t remember seeing what signal strength was in the diagnostics though.

Do you leave your box in sby overnight ?
Always used to, yes, and never any updates.

Have you one or two cables connected ?
Quad cables coming in: two connected; two unused.

I'd be happy putting problems with SL down to the broadcasters not the box.
If that’s the case, which I think it may well be, then all the more reason for PVR manufacturers to include an option for the PVR to record every episode rather than relying on serires link information.

Okay now I'm beginning to suspect you have a failed unit.
If “recording has failed for an unknown reason” is not an everyday occurrence for most people, then yes, there must be something wrong with mine!

What? Highlight the programme you want and press the yellow button. Click 'ok' to confirm and you're done.
Ah, thanks. I didn’t know about that. That sounds sensible. I was going through the menu each time. Although personally I think if you’re going to design a remote control, you include a clearly dedicated button for deleting things. It’s just such a common task!

Oh and I agree that it’s annoying you can only delete one thing at once: the Humax makes such a song and dance about deleting while most PVRs just “instantly” delete it as far as the user is aware. You hit delete and ping it’s gone!

File Manager is useful, but very cumbersome and not intended (or at least not suited) for everyday use. With the Topfield PVR for example, you just press the blue button on any recording and it marks them, then you can delete (or move) them in bulk.

PVRs are not computers. Most people don't want all that crap. They just want to use the box to select a programme or a recording to view.
I agree that most people probably want something easy and simple, but there are still plenty of people like me who love options.

Moreover, I don’t believe the two are mutually exclusive. I believe you can have a piece of software that is effortlessly simple to use and works perfectly out of the box (that’s something everyone wants), yet has a wealth of customisation options hidden away for people who like to tweak.

The Topfield running MyStuff [is the] gold standard for PVRs in my experience. Just a shame it is now such an old SD only box so gets less use here now. An HD version would have been a killer machine.
I think I’ve been spoilt with the Topfield. It just works so well, feels so right, and looks so good (given you can heavily customise its appearance)!

I don’t understand why some new PVR manufacturer doesn’t just copy the Topfield+MyStuff? Or at least allow people to program their own software on it like with the Topfield?

By profession, I’m a graphic and interactive designer (websites, mainly). But, boy, I wish I could work on PVRs! I feel they need people designing these systems who are users themselves and are really passionate and really care about making a fine product. I don’t think most of these developers even bother to look at what’s out there and what works and what doesn’t work, if they did they would identify the Topfield as a success and start from there.

But I’d imagine a lot of the problems with these PVRs arise because:[list][*]Very limited time to develop these products, so not enough cycles of betas and testing.[*]The nature of business means that selling comes before functionality, hence the call for new PVRs to have gimmicks, novelties and look striking and original, rather than work well.[*]Problems happen when the four main processes (systems design, hardware engineering, programming and graphics) are too isolated or there’s a deficit in any of these important areas. Ideally, you want one or two people on board with good all-round experience who can better integrate these technical and creative processes together—providing you have all four bases covered with genuinely skilled people. Otherwise you end up with things like screens laid out by graphic designers who think they’re qualified, or graphics created by programmers who think they’re qualified.[/list]
Alan White,
A big thank-you for your comments. I really appreciate your list, which supplements my own list rather nicely and touches on a few things I’d forgotten to mention, even making me laugh at times. My own list was just things from memory, since I don’t currently have access to my Foxsat and haven’t used it in a while. But given access to the machine I’d probably be listing hundreds of bugs and annoyances. (I’ve done that in the past with other PVRs!)

As Grand Dizzy then goes on to say, there is a search function but it's cumbersome.
Well actually, when I said “search function”. I didn’t mean a function for performing one-off searches. I meant a function that constantly searches the EPG for what you want and records things automatically like the Topfield). In other words, a series link function that doesn’t rely on series link information and just simply records anything containing the keywords you specify.

For example, on my Toppy, I have a search for “religio”, which records anything with “religio” in the title or description and puts it exactly where I tell it: into a folder called “Religion”. And the machine obeys me perfectly!

Badly designed remote
My pet hate is the weird layout of the play/rew/ff etc keys. All remotes I've ever seen, from the earliest VCR remotes, through DVD, Sky+, and even the 9300, have Rewind, then Play, then FF: all on the same line and in close proximity to each other. The Foxsat has Play at the far left of one row and Rew/FF below it. Very confusing.
And that’s not to mention the slow-motion button, which is ridiculously far away from the other video controls!

Can’t pause on any frame
I too find that frustrating. To be fair, not since frame advance on a previous VCR have I seen a PVR that works properly in this respect.
My first ever PVR was a Digifusion and I was really spoilt with that. The playback hardware was incredibly powerful and you had full control when you hit rewind, pause or play. I’ve never felt such power over video playback! The interface too was 100% instantly responsive and the whole system was very well designed (EPG looked like this). You felt both comfortable and in control. In fact, that whole PVR was amazing, with a 14-day EPG and when you hit the standby button it turned on and off instantly. I still really miss it like an old friend!

It was almost perfect, except for 3 things: 1) No resume playback from where you left a recording 2) No series link, although that never bothered me as it was SO easy to whip through the EPG and see everything that was on at a glance). 3) The main problem was that it wasn’t too stable, and a crash sometimes wiped everything. Happened to me about once a year! (Happy Christmas! All your family films are gone!)

When I choose to schedule a recording the first thing I get is an annoying and unnecessary prompt about SD/HD. Is it not obvious that I want to record the channel I'm looking at in the EPG?
Yes! Good one. Totally agree! Surely a lot of users (if not most) don’t have an HD screen and therefore never want to see this annoying message?

To provide some balance in this otherwise negative post, there are some things which I really like about the Foxsat.
In complete honesty, there was only one thing about the Foxsat that I liked, and that was the graphic design, which I thought was generally good. It looks decidedly less ugly than a lot of PVRs. I just find the colours quite cold!
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:31
Andrue
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Thanks for those comments, Grand Dizzy. Just to correct though - I was wrong about pressing the Yellow button - got confused between removing timers and my Sky box
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:10
alpine*
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When I choose to schedule a recording the first thing I get is an annoying and unnecessary prompt about SD/HD. Is it not obvious that I want to record the channel I'm looking at in the EPG?
If you just want to schedule that recording then you can avoid the SD/HD message by pressing 'record' instead of 'OK'.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:35
grahamlthompson
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Getting fed up of pointing this out. HD/SD linking of content in the Freesat epg is part of the Freesat spec and is down to data provided by the broadcasters. Any Freesat+ certified box should support it. In fact if you look around you can find many posts bemoaning the fact that some broadcasters don't properly implement it.

If there are Freesat+ specified parts of the UI that you don't like posting these in a thread relating purely to Humax kit is totally pointless. Address your comments where they should be, to Freesat.

I doubt you will get very far with this one it seems to be almost universally liked.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:56
Grand Dizzy
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As well as the Imagined Foxsat colour skin I made last night, I also just came across a few images I made over 4 years ago (before the Foxsat was even released) indicating how much more functional an HD GUI might be:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
These were all hastily done, but the point is I want more on-screen information and with an HD box that should easily be possible!
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:05
peter05
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Getting fed up of pointing this out. HD/SD linking of content in the Freesat epg is part of the Freesat spec and is down to data provided by the broadcasters. Any Freesat+ certified box should support it. In fact if you look around you can find many posts bemoaning the fact that some broadcasters don't properly implement it.

If there are Freesat+ specified parts of the UI that you don't like posting these in a thread relating purely to Humax kit is totally pointless. Address your comments where they should be, to Freesat.

I doubt you will get very far with this one it seems to be almost universally liked.
I for one like to be reminded that there is a SD/HD choice, when I am going to record something from the EPG
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:16
grahamlthompson
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As well as the Imagined Foxsat colour skin I made last night, I also just came across a few images I made over 4 years ago (before the Foxsat was even released) indicating how much more functional an HD GUI might be:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
These were all hastily done, but the point is I want more on-screen information and with an HD box that should easily be possible!
Only if Freesat want to. Do any of the G1 boxes have a epg that you like ?

What do you think of the G2 epg ?
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:50
Alan White
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I think it will sort out to the correct order overnight once the housekeeping is done.
I wondered as much, and indeed it does though this morning's recordings then appear out of order as before.

In short: sorting of the Media list doesn't work either usefully or consistently .
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Old 11-09-2012, 14:25
Alan White
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My Foxsat colour theme
I prefer your colours to the supplied ones. That said, I think both of them lack contrast and are unnecessarily difficult for aging eyes to read. Heavens know who came up with Humax's white-on-light-grey. I assume your scheme is just a design, not something which can actually be installed on the box?

No single-channel EPG
Yes, I think this is what the Guide List function is intended to do but I find it difficult to read and understand. I don't think I've ever wanted to see a list such as your image so the absence or usability of the function doesn't bother me. Presumably some people find it useful.

But I’d imagine a lot of the problems with these PVRs arise because:
I agree entirely with your reasoning. This doesn't just apply to PVRs, of course. So much stuff uses software these days and the manufacturers can't and don't want to employ designers, programmers and testers because of the cost. Instead they farm out the development to other companies at a fixed - usually low - price which leaves no room for doing a good job. I worked in software development for twenty years before I retired and in my day the software on the Foxsat wouldn't even have passed peer review let alone passed testing and been given to the public. Ironically, the best software these days seems to be that which is free or low cost and developed by enthusiasts.

In other words, a series link function that doesn’t rely on series link information and just simply records anything containing the keywords you specify.
Isn't that the sort of thing the Tivo used to do? I'm in two minds about the functionality; wouldn't it record things that you didn't want? I would like to see the Foxsat retain the list of search strings, though. I can't imagine why anyone would think it a good idea to delete them daily.

In complete honesty, there was only one thing about the Foxsat that I liked, and that was the graphic design, which I thought was generally good. It looks decidedly less ugly than a lot of PVRs. I just find the colours quite cold!
For me, the graphic design is one of the ugliest I've seen on VCR/DVD/PVRs. The Humax 9300T is much better than the Foxsat and, given the obvious need to minimise costs, I don't understand why Humax paid to design a completely different UI for the Foxsat.
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Old 11-09-2012, 14:34
Alan White
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If you just want to schedule that recording then you can avoid the SD/HD message by pressing 'record' instead of 'OK'.
Oddly enough, I discovered that trick just this morning before reading your post. Thanks for the tip .

Unfortunately, though, it also bypasses the option to record the series so is only useful if you just want to record that particular occurence.

This is another example where the UI could be so much simpler to use. The default should be to record the channel highlighted in the EPG and to record the series. This makes one-touch recording rather than a minimum of three keypresses. It's all about ease of use.
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Old 11-09-2012, 14:42
Andrue
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So much stuff uses software these days and the manufacturers can't and don't want to employ designers, programmers and testers because of the cost. Instead they farm out the development to other companies at a fixed - usually low - price which leaves no room for doing a good job.
Sadly that's starting to pervade genuine software development now. I think it's due to the rise of free software. Companies make money off the support(*) rather than the software itself. With the rise of the cloud this is just going to get more and more common. I'm beginning to think that programming is going to be like creating a hammer. Okay so someone gets something for that but not very much because it's knowing how and when to use a hammer that really matters. If the hammer happens to be bent or only works with triangular nails then so be it. Charge the customer a bit more to cover the hassle.

Luckily I only need another 10 years of employment and I think I can survive that either by avoiding the cloud or else the tried and trusted technique of bluffing

(*)By which I mean architectural design, deployment etc. not just 'fixing it when it's broke'
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Old 11-09-2012, 14:53
Alan White
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If you just want to schedule that recording then you can avoid the SD/HD message by pressing 'record' instead of 'OK'.
Further, I wondered if removing the HD channels would remove this prompt but sadly not.

Hiding the HD channels does make for a much tidier EPG though because the number of lines coincidentally fits the channels neatly: the main channels on the first page; the ITV channels on the next page; Channel 4 etc on the next. It looks quite good .
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Old 11-09-2012, 17:47
REPASSAC
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Sadly that's starting to pervade genuine software development now. I think it's due to the rise of free software. Companies make money off the support(*) rather than the software itself. With the rise of the cloud this is just going to get more and more common. I'm beginning to think that programming is going to be like creating a hammer. Okay so someone gets something for that but not very much because it's knowing how and when to use a hammer that really matters. If the hammer happens to be bent or only works with triangular nails then so be it. Charge the customer a bit more to cover the hassle.

Luckily I only need another 10 years of employment and I think I can survive that either by avoiding the cloud or else the tried and trusted technique of bluffing

(*)By which I mean architectural design, deployment etc. not just 'fixing it when it's broke'
I am out of it now - but I can tell you the more complex software gets the more of the "quick setting concrete" rule applies - you build on what works and build again - now if you find a new problem you cannot change an aspect of without a redesign and a full rewrite. It is not easy changing stuff four years after a design. But you do learn these lesions well for future designs.
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Old 11-09-2012, 20:16
Grand Dizzy
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I prefer your colours to the supplied ones. That said, I think both of them lack contrast and are unnecessarily difficult for aging eyes to read. Heavens know who came up with Humax's white-on-light-grey. I assume your scheme is just a design, not something which can actually be installed on the box?
Thanks for the feedback, Alan!

How about this Higher visibility text version? (You may notice that the font and icons on my graphic are slightly different to the original—I built it from scratch so I could edit it better!)

To answer your question, sadly it’s only a design and I don’t know of any way to make a skin for the actual box… unless someone else does? Maybe I should just email Humax my concept, or ask them for a job (I’m currently between jobs so if anyone needs a nice GUI designing…?).

For me, the graphic design is one of the ugliest I've seen on VCR/DVD/PVRs. The Humax 9300T is much better than the Foxsa
You mean this? Hmmm. I would simply say it’s not to my tastes, as I don’t want to offend the designer, however I suspect this was one of those unfortunate projects where there was no designer and the programmers produced the graphics themselves. This really looks like it was designed by a programmer.

Or, could be a graphics person designed it originally, but then the developers started messing with it and the designer never got to review it. I mean typography has gone out the window in places. But I strongly suspect there was never any graphics people involved in that project.
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Old 11-09-2012, 21:10
richard_g_uk
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Series link only works sometimes: Series link only works with certain programmes. Presumably, the EPG data is flawed and incomplete on certain channels because I’m always having to manually set up a recording for every single episode of some programmes. Sometimes I do a series link and it will automatically record some episodes of a programme, but miss episodes shown on a different channel.
I have noticed this as well (only recently though so it may be a new bug introduced in the firmware update a couple of months ago).

I posted here about it:

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1725409
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Old 11-09-2012, 21:10
Alan White
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Better . I'd like to see the highlighted text black (or a different background for the highlighted row) and all text white rather than a mixture of white, black and light blue.

We may not be able to implement it but at least we can dream .

Yes. The 9300 has a much cleaner design; there's better use of space; the fonts are bigger and the colours provide good contrast. It shares the wasted space in the top left with the Foxsat (it's all duplication) but at least the top right is occupied with a useful picture of the current channel (another feature missing from the Foxsat).

What I'd like to see is merging the best points of both:
- white text, blue backgrounds, decent sized fonts
- no duplication
- picture of the current channel
- synopsis a la Foxsat (two lines would be better)
- all of the screen used (no waste at the top like the Foxsat)

Perhaps one day....
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